WAG Twisters vs. Flippers?

[cbifoja]

I was chatting with one of our junior coaches waiting for my daughter to come out of the gym and we were watching the optionals on floor. She mentioned that some girls are twisters and some girls are flippers. Is this her opinion or a generality that is accepted industry-wide?

To me, it seems like it would be much easier to flip and keep your bearings than to twist. I don't see how these girls have any point of reference while twisting.

 

[JBS]

Correct trampoline training from a young age will make them good at both...

Key stuff (sorry if I forget any)

• Back, stomach, table & seat drops...and the ability to twist both directions to or from any of these...see Al Fong 4 part series as well as the video by Justice (Miller Time)
• Back, stomach, table & seat drops...and the ability to flip both directions to or from any of these......see Al Fong 4 part series as well as the video by Justice (Miller Time)
• Flipping in a row...see the article by Kelly Crumley
• Cruise...Cody...Kaboom

http://usagym.org/pages/home/publications/technique/1998/7/trampoline.pdf

 

[JBS]

Here's more...(it wouldn't let me have all the videos above)...

 

[JBS]

How about this kid...because she grew up on a trampoline...she is now starting to work almost every skill in the book...she is a flipper and a twister. Once she got a vertical flyaway...we told her to "cruise towards the bar"...that's right she's now working Giengers. She knows how to twist...flip...and both at the same time (cruise).........arabian...onodi...sure those too. While she doesn't have any real big skills...she will...she is good in the air. She will never have to learn a skill on floor...vault...or bars again...those events all have big air...she learns everything with air on tramp.

 

[iwannacoach]

Correct trampoline training from a young age will make them good at both........JBS

You gotta love what tramp work does for air sense. I'm sitting here, in the IWC world head quarters, contemplating a few thoughts that could keep a guy like me up late at night.

The original question about whether some kids are twisters while some are flippers was posed in too broad a generality, because while a single salto and a salto with half twist are nearly a certainty for any child with enough time and commitment,
the crowd thins somewhat on Tsukaha/Yurchenko vaults. The group shrinks again for kids doing double back dismounts from bars, and thins yet again for the number of kids doing double backs on floor. I think the same numbers observation can be made with twisting, where almost any kid can learn a half, they can't all keep adding another 1/2 twist up to the point of a 3/1.

It seems that some kids favor twisting to collect their difficulty, while some favor the saltos for difficulty. In the context of proper air sense development through trampoline progressions, will nearly every child have an equal ability to twist big as well as salto big?...... or does trampoline improve their ability to twist and salto, but not to the point of each being equal to the other.

So I guess you could pose my brader question this way....... Is the only practical difference, between twisting difficulty and salto difficulty, the landing forces and consequences of short rotation, and that kids of a certain body type can withstand force types that other kids can't, and vice versa, but up to the point of landing, all kids are equal?

So what say?

 

[cbifoja]

You gotta love what tramp work does for air sense. I'm sitting here, in the IWC world head quarters, contemplating a few thoughts that could keep a guy like me up late at night.

The original question about whether some kids are twisters while some are flippers was posed in too broad a generality, because while a single salto and a salto with half twist are nearly a certainty for any child with enough time and commitment,
the crowd thins somewhat on Tsukaha/Yurchenko vaults. The group shrinks again for kids doing double back dismounts from bars, and thins yet again for the number of kids doing double backs on floor. I think the same numbers observation can be made with twisting, where almost any kid can learn a half, they can't all keep adding another 1/2 twist up to the point of a 3/1.

It seems that some kids favor twisting to collect their difficulty, while some favor the saltos for difficulty. In the context of proper air sense development through trampoline progressions, will nearly every child have an equal ability to twist big as well as salto big?...... or does trampoline improve their ability to twist and salto, but not to the point of each being equal to the other.

So I guess you could pose my brader question this way....... Is the only practical difference, between twisting difficulty and salto difficulty, the landing forces and consequences of short rotation, and that kids of a certain body type can withstand force types that other kids can't, and vice versa, but up to the point of landing, all kids are equal?

So what say?

Ummmmm...................... I'm speechless. LOL

I didn't realize I was asking such a complex question! We were just having a casual conversation while watching tumbling passes on the floor. I'm ASSUMING that she meant anything beyond a single salto/twist. But just wow for the rest of your post, IWC. I'm not sure I'm smart enough to contribute anything beyond the question to this conversation!

 

[JBS]

...but up to the point of landing, all kids are equal?

Equal in their ability to flip and twist...no. Their abilities should equalize as they are trained though. We train the broad category of "air sense"...our version of "air sense" teaches the gymnast to both flip and twist.

 

[JBS]

She mentioned that some girls are twisters and some girls are flippers. Is this her opinion or a generality that is accepted industry-wide?

I used to think this way...I have since learned that I was highly wrong. Almost 100% of the gymnasts at our gym do some sort of double flipping skill before learning a layout with a full twist. Does this make them better flippers? I think not...all of these gymnasts could first do a double twist on trampoline with NO flip.

Only flipping or only twisting are single axis movements. A skill like a back layout full rotates around more than one axis...it is a more complex skill.

The flipper or twister thinking is not accepted by me as I want to have gymnasts that do multiple flipping/twisting skills.

Think of it this way...most gymnasts have strong and weak events. Eventually we like to see their weak events become strong and their strong events become stronger. Many kids start with a weak event...make it strong...and then make it strong to the point that their former strong event is now their weak event. This is good training.

On the other hand...many clubs have strong events and weak events. Gymnast X is not that good at bars because they are from Club Y. This is not good training.

I'm rambling big time...but this thinking is a coaching flaw. Don't label kids...teach them.

It would be good to hear from some T&T people on this one...where you at Goofy?

 

[BlairBob]

Well, a longer body can twist easier whereas a shorter body can rotate faster.

But really with kids, it's just a matters of doing the progressions. A lot of tramp work if you have access to it.

 

[CoachGoofy]

I used to think this way...I have since learned that I was highly wrong. Almost 100% of the gymnasts at our gym do some sort of double flipping skill before learning a layout with a full twist. Does this make them better flippers? I think not...all of these gymnasts could first do a double twist on trampoline with NO flip.

Only flipping or only twisting are single axis movements. A skill like a back layout full rotates around more than one axis...it is a more complex skill.

The flipper or twister thinking is not accepted by me as I want to have gymnasts that do multiple flipping/twisting skills.

Think of it this way...most gymnasts have strong and weak events. Eventually we like to see their weak events become strong and their strong events become stronger. Many kids start with a weak event...make it strong...and then make it strong to the point that their former strong event is now their weak event. This is good training.

On the other hand...many clubs have strong events and weak events. Gymnast X is not that good at bars because they are from Club Y. This is not good training.

I'm rambling big time...but this thinking is a coaching flaw. Don't label kids...teach them.

It would be good to hear from some T&T people on this one...where you at Goofy?

Well, all our kids learn to rotate along either axis early on (starting level 2 they LA twist & they seat drop doggy drop belly drop, which is a rudimentary 1/4 rotation forward) and on both much earlier than artistic gymnasts-a half twist to stomach is in the L5 routine, for example, and in a good, or even decent, gym you're going to see all sorts of combinations of twist and flip, so T&T kids tend to have mastered drills way before the skill they could be seen as building to.

(example: I had kids who could barely do a back tuck doing backdrop pullover, fullturn AFTER starting pullover, to land on their stomach at a clinic we took them to 2 years ago. They're juuust now getting ready to start training fulls).

We also, of course, introduce front twisting sooner, what with baranis being a Big Deal Skill.

Flipping vs twisting proclivity is a bit of a thing in my experience, but it's a preference for most of the trampoline kids I've worked with rather than a just-cannot. And a lot of it seems mental-we've got a girl who learned a double back and a rudi both like they were easy but her back full was hard won and tends towards sloppiness. And then we have the girl who can double twist backwards, do a 1 3/4 and a half out double front like nothing, but just freezes on a double back. It's scarier, but pulling it is in her capabilities.

Every once in a great while I meet a kid who can't manage flip & twist because they get lost but they can flip just fine, but that's pretty rare & you can see it coming when they struggle with something like swivel hips but have great awareness for short axis skills. I can think of maybe 2? athletes I've ever known like this & they both had neurological quirks too (sensory issues, history of developmental interestingness) so they were the exception, not the rule.

Tendencies, not destiny, is how I see it for 99.9999% of T&T kids I've trained or trained with.

 

[iwannacoach]

So I'm reading all of these responses with more interest than usual because I had one of those "experiences" a long ways back with a kid who seemed a better twister than flipper. She'd learned and competed a handspring 2/1 twist on vault at age 13, but despite being a very adequate tumbler, with healthy ankles and ideal BMI, didn't learn 2/1 tuck safe enough to compete until she was 17. Topping that off, repeated attempts to teach her the standard vault of the day resulted in a Frankentsuk of epic proportions.

I think some of the difference was due to lack of trampoline work, but have always thought her vault could be chalked up her slender body type with narrower hips than normal, topped with slightly broad and square shoulders compared to her otherwise slight body line. I know this is not a unique body type in our sport, but the difference between her shoulder width and hip was uncommon.

So do you suppose her body type had more twisting potential than it did for saltos, or could it be we pidgeon holed her once she had success with twisting?

 

[JBS]

So do you suppose her body type had more twisting potential than it did for saltos, or could it be we pidgeon holed her once she had success with twisting?

I have several of that body type...they are all better at twisting in a "live" environment...spring floor for example. When you put them in "artistic imaginary land" (trampolines)...then are just fine at flipping also. When their strength catches up with their length...they will flip too.

I wouldn't consider a kid a twister or a flipper by "live" skills. This would be a judgement that I would make on trampolines...if I ever decided to "label" a kid one of these things.

 

[JBS]

Here's an interesting one...

I have found that slender kids have an easier time with the Kasumatsu than the Tsuk. Sure...they all Tsuk first...but the Kaz always seems better (higher) when they change to it. I teach them with a "cruise" motion which seems to be easier for them to whip into after years of tramp work.