For Coaches Twisting progressions

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Geoffrey Taucer

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@Rick McCharles recently posted this on gymnasticscoaching.com, as well as a similar video for doublefulls.

I've generally favored introducing back twisting starting with a very late twist, and allowing the twist to gradually initiate earlier and earlier, mainly to avoid the problem of early twisting compromising set technique. From what I've seen, this seems to be the preferred method among most coaches.

However, it's hard to argue with results like what you see in this video as well as the doublefull video; the technique looks very pretty, and very well-controlled.

Thoughts?
 
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gymdog

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Trampoline on an Aussie string bed and artistic gymnastics can't really be compared in this context though.

And I think the examples would qualify here in some respect as "late twisting" we want to avoid twisting off the ground in such a way that causes the body to become segmented, so that means there needs to be a stretched takeoff. I see a stretched takeoff leading with the hips (some initiation of rotation prior to twisting) here. On a tramp like this there is way more time. The reason most artistic coaches prefer to teach late twisting is because it automatically becomes earlier the more twists are added. Obviously, when we get to triple twists, the takeoff is happening almost right off the floor even on good ones but there is definitely variation and the stretch of the takeoff still determines the direction of the skill.

In cheer tumbling, because of the prevalence of spotting kids through things, I've noticed the common technique to have kids start doing fulls is to do a jump half turn and land in the coaches arms on their stomachs then the coach manipulates them through the full. It is nothing like the example shown here on tramp actually, although in theory it is. My observation is that this leads to a lot of segmentation and extremely piked down fulls which would be useless in gymnastics. Of course, we probably can't compare conditioning and practice times so surely that is a factor.
 

Geoffrey Taucer

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Actually, let's make this a general twisting progressions thread.

How do you introduce back twisting? How do you introduce front twisting?

Here's my front twisting progression:

Front pike --> front pike-open --> front pike-open with arms out to the sides --> front pike-open-1/2 (pike barani) --> front layout 1/2 (straight barani) --> Front 1/1 --> etc

I teach a front layout in parallel with the pike-open-1/2, and the layout 1/2 in parallel with the tuck-open-1/2. I generally do all of this on some combination of trampoline and tumbletrak-to-resi, before introducing it on floor. Whether they do it out of punch or out of a front handspring depends on the kid.


As for back twisting:

In the past, I've just taught it from a back layout into a pit, emphasizing a late twist. Generally, whatever I had kids doing on floor, I'd want them working the next 1/2 onto a mat or in the pit. I'm really insistant about NOT skipping the 1/2s; that is, they don't learn a 1/1 until they can do a 1/2, and they don't learn a 2/1 until they can do a 3/2.
Right now, I coach compulsories at a gym that doesn't have a pit, so they're not really doing anything past preliminary drills for back twisting, but I've had them working back 3/4 layout --> back 3/4 layout with 1/2 twist to back on a trampoline, and haven't really pushed any of my gymnasts past that (though a few of my T&T kids are working on back 1/1 on tramp).


I feel like my front twisting progression is pretty much refined to where I want it to be, but I'm still looking for more ways to break down back twisting without a pit.
 
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Problem is we have all dealt with the early twisters on every event and it ruins whatever skill you are trying to teach, (full twisting double back off bars, full twisting yurchenko, full on floor). We already know and deal with these problems with the masses. That being said, after a late twist is learned, I do like the quarter stall to 3/4, or quarter stall to double etc... But dealing with the masses, late twisting works best in our experience.
 

gymjunkie

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Our boys coach and cheer coaches teach the early twist. I've even heard them tell kids they are "not twisting early enough." From what I see, they get that nasty early twist by relying on spotting vs. progressions. Of all the many drills I do, the one that seems to ensure the late twist is having them twist up to a port-a-pit (from the TT). It's pretty hard to twist early when you have to land 2-3 feet up.
 
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titanic

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I really love using the drill of a front 1/2 or back 1/2 somersault to land on a diagonally slanted mat, then rolling down tightly to create a twist. That's how I usually teach most twists.
 

Aero

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What about arm wrap technique?

T&T uses straight arms pressed to the sides. This technique can also be used in WAG, but is it efficient when trying to do multiple twists, like triples or more? Are there deductions for certain styles of arm positions, or is it completely acceptable for the athlete to use whatever method works for them? Does one arm technique lend itself better to late or early twisting than others?

What arm positions do you folks usually teach or prefer?
 

gymjunkie

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In WAG, the straight arm technique is really only used for the full. It's much easier to spot, which is part of why it's preferred for beginning twisters. I know of some high level coaches who have a different arm wrap for each and every twist from the 1/1, 1.5, 2/1, 2.5 to the triple. They only use the straight arm pull for the 1/1. I know others who teach the bent arm pull from the beginning, but have the kids pull their elbows in closer for the 2/1 and beyond. I have tried both and am not really sold on one or the other, because they both work.
 
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Geoffrey Taucer

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I teach straight arms up to a 1/1 going backwards and up to a 1/2 going forwards. After that, it's whatever they're comfortable with (which in my experience usually ends up being hands-to-chest).
 

Art

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I like this Thread for twisting Geoffrey!

I am currently trying to introduce my one gymnast to twisting. He wants to learn doubles for rings dismount, but I said he should rather start with twisting skills.

I haven't come to favour specific arm techniques yet, still trying to make up my mind, but I'm leaning towards the straight arms for 1/1 and then bent and pulled in to chest for anything further.
 

Art

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Drills.....
I think Starting with forwards twisting is easiest. I want gymnasts to be able to do a 1/1 forwards before they start twisting backwards preferably.

What I have used so far for my gymnasts....
Drill 1 - Laying in dish, twist to prone hold.
Drill 2 - Laying on their back in a pike, holding onto ankles, snap open and twist into prone hold on floor.
Drill 3 - On trampoline, back drop and 1/2 to feet
Drill 4 - On trampoline, crash dive, 1/2 to feet.
Drill 5 - On trampoline, front pike, jump 1/2.

Drill 6 - Optional - Onto a stack of mats, or a soft 90cm box, do a forwards roll into an inverted pike, then snap open with 1/2 twist to land feet on floor. This can also be done with a salto onto their back instead of rolling into position. (This drill is a bit tough to use sometimes as twisting off the box or mats doesn't always happen smoothly)

Drill 7 - On trampoline, pike barani, jump 1/2.
Drill 8 - Into pit, attempt a pike open to 1/1.

Now with my current gymnast, he was progressing fine until he attempts forwards layout 1/1. So I now m looking at introducing on trampoline 1/2 to backdrop, then 1/2 back to feet. Doing the same drill to tummy drop. This gives a taste of forwards and backwards twisting.

Next, from backdrop, 1/2 to backdrop.
Then backdrop 1/1 to feet.
Finally backdrop 1/1 to tummy.

I did a heap of backdrops and tummy drops with twists when I was training myself. I think It is a good way to learn to use tilt twisting instead of torque, as you can focus on your 'set' a lot easier before moving arms to twist.
 
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