WAG Understanding the US streams

[rocky]

I've just been reading a bit about the streams in the US and trying to understand them. I have gathered that JO is more serious than Xcel. I was just wondering how most gyms work. Do most gyms do both streams or do they just focus on one. Also what proportion of kids go into the JO stream and what age are they selected? Are there any ways for late starters to get into the JO stream? Is 'team' part of JO or is that separate. Also how do TOPS and Hopes fit into it. Are they separate streams? Do all elites have to do TOPS or can they do JO?

 

[munchkin3]

I will try to explain what I know. Anyone please correct me if I'm off....

Most gyms start with recreational classes and around age 5 or 6 gyms start identifying which kids have potential....1st choice for parents is here.....it usually start with JO because the want younger kids. Some gyms only offer JO or Xcel, or one or the other.

JO is the more competitive track. TOPS is not offered in all gyms is is NOT necessary to become elite. So you can have a child that is in JO at 6 years old, competes quickly through the compulsory levels and makes it to L10 without any other 'program'. The first mandatory compulsory level is L4 (I think, unless it's the new L3). Around L9/10, there are more choices to be made depending on age. For very young L10s (age 10-13) they might consider Hopes qualification which is a precursor to Elite with slightly lower qualifying requirements. Elite would be the next step which is the last and hardest qualifier and theoretically can begin at age 11 for Junior Elite and then 15 for seniors, but you don't need to qualify Hopes first.......you can go straight to Jr. Elite. From this point on there is a lot of politics on how to be 'seen' and be picked for superhuman status.

TOPS Is just a side program that helps in creating young elite athletes. It is a tough conditioning program which many coaches incorporate in compulsory athletes. It is not meant for the masses but many gyms use it for their own TOPS program and charge additional money for. I would say the quality of TOPS program totally depends on the gym and the better the TOPS, the more selective they are. Our TOPS is a waste of time as pretty much anyone can join.....we get the same stuff with the regular hours.

For most successful JO athletes who make it to L10 by the time they are in high school, college gymnastics would be the next step. The college L10 track is VERY different from the Elite track with the he most obvious difference of AGE. Ie. We have about 3 gymnasts out of 20 who are outliers 9-10 years old training L8/9. This is not the norm and I assume that these 3 girls are being eyed to go elite at some point.

Remember, this is the US and capitalism is king.....there are a lot of ways to make money off of gymnastics and a lot of parents willing to pay for all kinds of things. What gyms sell is the dream......what you NEED is compulsory levels, optional levels,then Jr./Sr. Elite. ( of course we bought package A and my DD WILL be making the national team soon) lol! For college you need to be either an event specialist, or a strong L10.

Xcel is another branch which is more recreational and many athletes here are a bit older or don't want the time commitment. It tops out around a L7/8 which I THINK is platinum/diamond. You can go from JO to Xcel easily but XCEL to JO has some rules. I am not sure how it works, but I believe there is a way to get from platinum to L6/7 JO.....I will find out.

 

[munchkin3]

Sorry- one more thing. Gyms have their specialty (there are thousands of gyms in the US). Some do XCEL really well......some use XCEL as their compulsory. I depends on the gym and this is where parents need to do their research on selecting a good gym. The same with age selection. Some gyms are very strict on who can go JO. Our gym is good that way, as they don't really care about age. The also will recruit girls from XCEL to join JO even if they are older. The gym wants to give everyone a chance to pick whatever path. I know others gyms where the JO athletes started there at 5 and that's it.....if you go XCEL, it's like quitting.

 

[Seeker]

TOPS Is just a side program that helps in creating young elite athletes. It is a tough conditioning program which many coaches incorporate in compulsory athletes. It is not meant for the masses but many gyms use it for their own TOPS program and charge additional money for. I would say the quality of TOPS program totally depends on the gym and the better the TOPS, the more selective they are. Our TOPS is a waste of time as pretty much anyone can join.....we get the same stuff with the regular hours.

Yes -- TOPS is an 'extra' program, originally designed to allow access to National Team Training methods to more coaches/gyms across the US and an opportunity for high-potential kids at lesser-known gyms to be identified young and have access to National Team staff/camps/development/etc. Many high-level gyms do not participate in TOPS because it simply isn't necessary...the coaches already know the training methods and have access to National Team staff because they're already integrated into the Camp system. At dd's gym, there is no TOPS program, but they have several active Elites and integrate the national team training methods into the everyday conditioning and training.

You are also very correct in saying that TOPS is often used as a money-maker for gyms. It's an add-on, extra, you-must-be-selected type of thing. Many parents on the board have complained about this because their daughters do all the training, but it often doesn't lead to actual TOPS Testing if the coaches don't think they're ready. I don't necessarily think the training is wasted in that case, but it needs to be managed and balanced appropriately as it can be very difficult and could cause burnout. We have never been at a gym that had a TOPS program.

Most gyms start with recreational classes and around age 5 or 6 gyms start identifying which kids have potential....1st choice for parents is here.....it usually start with JO because the want younger kids. Some gyms only offer JO or Xcel, or one or the other.

This is generally how most gyms identify kids, but sometimes the ages to start can be even lower. My dd didn't start gymnastics until she was 8. She'd been in Ballet for 2 years at that point and had good body-awareness, flexibility and a pretty good amount of natural athletic talent. She'd done some recreational gymnastics when she was really young and kept begging to go back, so I took her. She wanted to compete so I asked about team options right away. First gym was super strict about who they'd allow on "Team" and they said that she would have had to start their pre-team at age 3 or 4. Well....we missed that window by 5 years. Sorry!

So....off we went to another place. Signed her up for a rec class in the summer and she was asked to join the team after 2 sessions. Fast forward 6 months and she competed L4. She's 12 now and a L9 so it all worked out just fine -- it's all about finding the right program. Some will allow movement between streams, some have strict pre-team/compulsory ages and paths for progressions and others are more flexible. Just depends on the gym and their philosophy. It's good to have options!!

 

[Deleted member 18037]

All of the above.

It really depends on the gym.

Our gym has done TOPS in the past they don't any longer, they still train TOPS it's just not "official" so it keeps costs down.

We also are a lower hours gym so we have a bunch of talented kids who might not still be in gymnastics if they had to do more hours. My girl is a example she is L6 will be training L7/8 skills over the summer and doing less hours then the old gym wanted her to do for L3. And old gym told me if she can't do the hours she isn't cut out for team. Snarky moment here I love it when we go to meets and she beats her old gym.

Our gym also does not care what stream the kids are. We do JO and IGC currently and have done JO and XCel previously. They level the kids appropriately. Some kids do both, some just JO, some Just IGC or XCel when they did it. Coaches feel team is team. No special Leo's or pecking order, or special training hours based on level. You are team,you wear the team Leo. L2/3 trains same days. L4 and up other days, kids are grouped by skills. This year mid season they regrouped some of the kids, my daughter being one. They are training higher skills and are with the big kids now. And gymnastics is gymnastics. It doesn't matter whether a BHS is JO, Xcel or IGC, it's a BHS and the goal is to do it well and as close to perfect as you can get. They have a limited rec classes most kids move to team or move on. They will pretty much will let any kid do team but won't let them move if they don't have the skills to move. So if a kid doesn't have the skills to move and is lookin at repeating a level for the third time, they usually move elsewhere.

There really is no one way, one size fits all. And I'm thankful for it or my kid would of been out a long time ago. And that would stink because she is a decent gymmie.

 

[munchkin3]

What makes the US system so different is the number of gyms out there. In order to get the monthly $ out there, gyms must specialize in different things. Some are more recreational or after school type places, others are pure optional....there are all types and of course if you are lucky enough to live near a city, you can take your pick depending on what your child wants, or is designed for.

Most other countries have FAR fewer choices. That's what makes the US system so unique.......

 

[raenndrops]

All of the above.
As for Xcel, it is used in different ways by different gyms and there are also regional differences in competitiveness. As a Nationalized program, Xcel has only been around for 3 years. Before that, every state had it's own version (VAOP, Prep-Op, Pre-Opt, Prep-Opt)... Then USAG announced that it was going to become a nationalized program, but each region started with their own rules for each division. Region 5 adopted the national rules a year early - I guess it was like a test run. I know that year that Region 8 had slightly different rules (beam dismount for the Gold division being one that stands out).
Since it was Nationalized, the program has grown every year. Several regions now have (or are adding) an Xcel Regional meet.

Ways gyms treat Xcel:
As a way to let rec students compete in local league (these gyms do not often even go to a state meet - league championship is as far as they go).
As a lower hour rec team (similar to above, but may travel a little farther for meets and may or may not compete in a State meet)
As a lower hour competitive team (actually treated like part of the team with a lower hour commitment than the JO team)
As a team for older, but lower level girls (some gyms steer "older" girls to Xcel... But older is subjective)
As a way to bypass compulsories (they compete Xcel until they have the skills to score out of JO L4 and L5, then they transition into JO Optionals)
As the ONLY team in the gym (they don't have to deal with compulsory music-lol).
As a way to keep compulsory gymnasts from getting bored in areas with Fall Compulsories and Spring Optionals.

 

[munchkin3]

All of the above.
As for Xcel, it is used in different ways by different gyms and there are also regional differences in competitiveness. As a Nationalized program, Xcel has only been around for 3 years. Before that, every state had it's own version (VAOP, Prep-Op, Pre-Opt, Prep-Opt)... Then USAG announced that it was going to become a nationalized program, but each region started with their own rules for each division. Region 5 adopted the national rules a year early - I guess it was like a test run. I know that year that Region 8 had slightly different rules (beam dismount for the Gold division being one that stands out).
Since it was Nationalized, the program has grown every year. Several regions now have (or are adding) an Xcel Regional meet.

Ways gyms treat Xcel:
As a way to let rec students compete in local league (these gyms do not often even go to a state meet - league championship is as far as they go).
As a lower hour rec team (similar to above, but may travel a little farther for meets and may or may not compete in a State meet)
As a lower hour competitive team (actually treated like part of the team with a lower hour commitment than the JO team)
As a team for older, but lower level girls (some gyms steer "older" girls to Xcel... But older is subjective)
As a way to bypass compulsories (they compete Xcel until they have the skills to score out of JO L4 and L5, then they transition into JO Optionals)
As the ONLY team in the gym (they don't have to deal with compulsory music-lol).
As a way to keep compulsory gymnasts from getting bored in areas with Fall Compulsories and Spring Optionals.

Raenndrops- question:
Is there a way that higher level XCEL girls can get into JO without having to do L4 and L5? I have seen gyms that do XCEL platinum and diamond, and then go to JO L7 very prepared.....Is this an exception, or are these athletes 'scoring out' of L4&5 in their home gym quickly?

 

[raenndrops]

Raenndrops- question:
Is there a way that higher level XCEL girls can get into JO without having to do L4 and L5? I have seen gyms that do XCEL platinum and diamond, and then go to JO L7 very prepared.....Is this an exception, or are these athletes 'scoring out' of L4&5 in their home gym quickly?

Many gyms have them score out in small meets or bring a judge in and do it that way. However, if the gymnast is 14 or at least a 9th grader, they can use the Platinum/Diamond routines as proof of readiness for L6/7 and petition the gymnast to the appropriate level.

In house score outs often happen with the girls scoring out of both in the same day. That can happen in smaller meets too (as long as the L4 session is before the L5 session).

 

[munchkin3]

Ah, ok- that's what I was talking about. We have two that are doing this.....

 

[MILgymFAM]

Raenndrops- question:
Is there a way that higher level XCEL girls can get into JO without having to do L4 and L5? I have seen gyms that do XCEL platinum and diamond, and then go to JO L7 very prepared.....Is this an exception, or are these athletes 'scoring out' of L4&5 in their home gym quickly?

I would think that if they go from diamond to L7 they would be VERY prepared- I thought diamond was the equivalent to L8-10? Other than that, yeah what everyone said. My DD did bronze, gold, L6. She was of the age that she was simply petitioned in, so I guess it does happen. I also think that it's not nearly as uncommon as people think for girls to be just plopped into levels without score outs or petitions. More of a no one really checks type of deal. I know, I know.. No one would do that.. But they do.

 

[Mrs. Puma]

I also think that it's not nearly as uncommon as people think for girls to be just plopped into levels without score outs or petitions. More of a no one really checks type of deal. I know, I know.. No one would do that.. But they do.

I have heard tell of such a thing. It's not right, but again, who's checking?

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Personally the whole score out thing, For me, JMO. I don't really care. If a kid can compete at a certain level, how is it relevant to me and my kids life that they didn't "score out". It really doesn't matter, if the can do the skills fine. Beyond it being revenue for USAG to plod them through levels, I don't care.

Now what concerns me it the other end. The kids who are competing down to "win". The L8 who is perfectly capable and able to compete level 8 that is held back to L6 or L7 to win. That bugs me.

Hey you never competed before and want to jump in a L6, 7, 8.... Have at it. You know what you need to do go ahead.

Keeping a L8 kid down to win, bugs the crud out of me.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I would think that if they go from diamond to L7 they would be VERY prepared- I thought diamond was the equivalent to L8-10? Other than that, yeah what everyone said. My DD did bronze, gold, L6. She was of the age that she was simply petitioned in, so I guess it does happen. I also think that it's not nearly as uncommon as people think for girls to be just plopped into levels without score outs or petitions. More of a no one really checks type of deal. I know, I know.. No one would do that.. But they do.

"I have heard tell of such a thing. It's not right, but again, who's checking?"

An official in the state is checking. A properly governed state NAWGJ organization has a designated person/judge who checks qualification scores. I used to work in the office, I know that they check. My understanding is that if a gymnast is not qualified to compete at their level due to not achieving the proper mobility score, the entire session or meet is affected, and none of the scores in the session or meet (I can't remember which one) are considered valid. If the meet is a qualifier to a next meet, like sectionals or states, think how it could affect others.

If gymnasts are "plopped into levels without score outs or petitions," then the gym is in error and in violation of the rules. It's not only breaking the rules, but it's selfish and could be dangerous. The reason for the mobility score is to make sure the gymnast can safely compete at the next level by demonstrating mastery of the skills at their current level. Imagine if gymnasts could compete wherever they or the coaches wanted them too, regardless of age or skill? It would be chaos. It's bad enough when the gymnast can barely perform the skills at their sanctioned level, it's downright scary at a lot of level 8 and 9 meets already. When I locate the wording in the Rules and Policies, I'll quote it here. If anyone knows of a place where they don't follow the mobility scores requirement, you should be avoiding it like the plague, because no good can come from that.

 

[skschlag]

If gymnasts are "plopped into levels without score outs or petitions," then the gym is in error and in violation of the rules. It's not only breaking the rules, but it's selfish and could be dangerous. The reason for the mobility score is to make sure the gymnast can safely compete at the next level by demonstrating mastery of the skills at their current level. Imagine if gymnasts could compete wherever they or the coaches wanted them too, regardless of age or skill? It would be chaos. It's bad enough when the gymnast can barely perform the skills at their sanctioned level, it's downright scary at a lot of level 8 and 9 meets already. When I locate the wording in the Rules and Policies, I'll quote it here. If anyone knows of a place where they don't follow the mobility scores requirement, you should be avoiding it like the plague, because no good can come from that.

this is exactly how the boys is done, however. Other than having to reach a certain age to compete levels 8-10, there are no score outs..no requirements for what level you compete. It is coach/gymnast determined....

 

[MILgymFAM]

this is exactly how the boys is done, however. Other than having to reach a certain age to compete levels 8-10, there are no score outs..no requirements for what level you compete. It is coach/gymnast determined....

Same for t&t. Once you start you need mobility, but lots of people start at higher levels. They trust the coaches to decide where their athletes can safely compete. I can assure you- re artistic- that there are not always people checking. Should there be? Since it's a staunch rule, yes, but things definitely slip through cracks.

 

[3rd_time_around]

4. Athletes may not skip any level (exception...Level 6 may be skipped, see below). They must advance one level at a time by scoring the minimum mobility score at any USA Gymnastics sanctioned competition (Exception: Levels 1-3 do not have a mobility score).5. A gymnast may not advance to Level 4 until she has completed the requirements as listed in the Entry & Mobility chart.

 

[raenndrops]

I would think that if they go from diamond to L7 they would be VERY prepared- I thought diamond was the equivalent to L8-10? Other than that, yeah what everyone said. My DD did bronze, gold, L6. She was of the age that she was simply petitioned in, so I guess it does happen. I also think that it's not nearly as uncommon as people think for girls to be just plopped into levels without score outs or petitions. More of a no one really checks type of deal. I know, I know.. No one would do that.. But they do.

Diamond is more like high L6 to low L9... That is why Region 6 wants a division above Diamond or an "Open" subdivision in Dimond for former L9/L10.
And if more host gyms start using the meet planning thing thru USAG then more gyms would get caught cheating the system.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Diamond is more like high L6 to low L9... That is why Region 6 wants a division above Diamond or an "Open" subdivision in Dimond for former L9/L10.
And if more host gyms start using the meet planning thing thru USAG then more gyms would get caught cheating the system.

Yes. They are recalling stressing the need for and ease of using the new system.

 

[chalkbowl]

I've also heard of athletes skipping levels w/o scoring out. I've also heard of athletes competing in state championships w/o ever getting the qualification score. Perhaps some states check more carefully than others...

(FWIW I'm in the same state as Mrs. Puma)