Coaches What would you have done?

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marie83

Coach
Judge
Hi all

Got a question for you! In my region of GB at level 5 a gymnast has to have a backwards element on beam (most opt for the backward walkover) - if this requirement is missing, the gymnasts lose 0.5 from their '10'. Obviously if they do perform the backward walkover but don't get their feet on the beam they lose 1 whole mark for the fall, plus 0.5 for the missing requirement and execution faults...

So:

My gymnasts have just competed level 5. I decided not to put the backward walkover in, purely because I'd rather lose 0.5 than take the risk.

However, today (2 weeks later) we had a smaller, less important competition, so I decided to put the backward walkover into one of my gymnasts routines because she had been pretty consistent with them in training. Had she pulled this off, it would have bumped her D score up and she may have been in with a chance of getting a medal!

Unfortunately she didn't pull it off (she didn't get her feet on and lost the 1.5 plus deductions, and had another fall later in the routine) and now I have 1 unhappy gymmie on my hands. Her mum, who I get on with really well, is also a little miffed - mainly because she thinks it was a big ask in such a short space of time.

I can accept this POV but I also feel that she would be thanking me had gymmie pulled it off!

This gymmie also has to move up to level 4 next year as she scored so well at regionals. At level 4 she HAS to do bwo-bhs on beam so I thought this would be a good opportunity for her to have a go under pressure!

What would you have done? played safe and kept everyone happy or gone for it?
 
You might want to remind Mum that if the gymmie had not competed the BWO at a comp it would be very hard to move up to the next level.

Gymnastics is sometimes about pushing the boundaries, and as you say she has had the skill solidly in practice.

Some you win some you lose, and you certainly cannot please them all. Imagine how happy Mum would've been if the gymmie would have stuck it?
 
Yeah, thats exactly what I've told her :) unfortunately we started on beam and she was first up (she was actually really happy about that as she was excited about competing that routine!) However, with the falls on beam she let the disappointment get to her and the rest of the comp wasn't great so she has come quite far down the rankings, after finishing 4th last year :S

I believe I made the right decision and I'm hoping that after a good chat tomorrow she will be determined to work super hard and get back up the top of the rankings next year!

This is the trouble with only having 3 or 4 comps a year!
 
We have exactly the same issues here. 3 meets a year and you want them to score well. Sometimes coaches have to make calculated risks. I think yours was a smart one. The gymmie needs to learn to deal with the pressure at meets in order to move on.
 
This is partially why I think at those levels it is important to put in the requirements of the routine if they can perform them safely. You can fall on anything - developmental competitive gymnastics, is, in my opinion, about learning how to warm up and compete the skills you can do. They will never progress through gymnastics skill wise in sync with the level they hope to compete if they can't meet those expectations. I tell some of my level 6s who are going through the back walkover thing "challenge yourself every day." They have to push themselves if they're going to progress. The ones who can't, won't, or don't think they have to do it are never going to make it out of these lower levels because it will only get more frustrating as that gap widens. If she has to do a BWO BHS next year, then it is not only reasonable but really absolutely essential that she learn to warm up and compete the base skills. Part of our job is to put those expectations in place and provide the support so they can push themselves.
 
We have exactly the same issues here. 3 meets a year and you want them to score well. Sometimes coaches have to make calculated risks. I think yours was a smart one. The gymmie needs to learn to deal with the pressure at meets in order to move on.

I think this is where the USA Levels system is better than some other countries'. Here it is common for most gymnasts to compete 6-8 meets/competitions before the state meet. At higher levels their are also regional and national meets. This gives the girls LOTS of competitive experience. I realize that not all US national team members compete USAG levels, but all that competitive experience has to be a benefit for those that do. If they ever get to Elite, they are accustomed to performing under pressure; somethink I think the British girls are still working on.

As for mom, tell her you win some, you lose some, but it's better to try than never know!
 
I would have had her do the BWO.

I would not let the other girls compete the level if they were missing a requirement.

Everyone has their own opinion on this and I truly, truly mean you no disrespect. I have in the past allowed girls to compete levels that they were not completely ready for with the thinking that maybe it was more detrimental for them to stay back, due to age, number of years at previous level, etc. My new thinking (could change again in the future I guess) is that it does not serve the gymnast to compete at a level that they are not "competitve" in. Doesn't mean they have to win, but they have to be "in the game"... in our area, if you do not have the basic requirements at the very least, then you are not in the game.

Just my opinion, and I want to restate, I mean you no disrespect in your decision regarding your athletes. I don't live where you live, or compete in your program, nor do I know what is standard for your area. But having your athlete compete the stated skills for her level is the correct choice in my opinion.
 
I'd put the skill in especially since she'll need to compete it next season with the ever more difficult connection.
I have a few girls that need a lot of reps in practice to make sure they stick the skill at meets. They still fall about 1/3rd of the time due to nerves. I also try to make sure they know that falls happen. I'm more upset with skills that they can do well looking bad and causing lower scores instead of the .5 on the fall.
 
I would make her compete the skill. I am on the same page as nevertooold. If a gymnast isnt ready with all the skills for the next level they stay back. They can be successful at a level if they dont have the skills.

Why does she need to move up if she scored well at regionals? Is this a gym rule or country rule? I have girls that scored in the 37s last year that are repeating because they cant get the required skills for their next level.
 
as the coach, its your call. You know the athlete, the situation, how she competes, etc. It sounds like you did what you felt was best for this gymnast, which is all you can do. We only question ourselves when the risks dont turn out the way we want! If this gymnast & parent are upset, they will have to get over it- the expectations are MUCH higher in the future, therefore more room for error. IMHO, you did her a favor ahving her compete the BWO now if she needs to compete a BWO BHS next year! Im not sure though, why she is competing that level if she cant meet all the requirements (alnd w/ both feet on the beam)?
 
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It is a requirement in her region that they move up when they have a certain score. I don't know anywhere else in the UK that does that though.

BTW it is a very different system in the UK and we dont have 'requirements' as such. It is more like a bonus system for suggested moves based on the FIG system. It is normal for girls to compete without the full set. The top ones get as close as they can. Yesterday in the Nationals I saw 9 year olds compete on floor with a ROBHSBT at the bottom end and front tuck walk out ROBHS full twist at the top end. Scores on floor ranged from 9.8 to 12.75.

I think we definitely suffer from not having a season of competitions especially at the lower levels.
 
Same goes her gymnut1, my youngest will be at the bottom end of skills with a cw ro bhs, girls can compete a ro bhs bt. Our routines have a basic set of requirements and bonus skills can be added. We have no move up score. Our girls can really change their routines easily depending on their strengths in the gym. We are going for really simple and solid routines for my youngests first meet, then the coach may add in her tougher skills if things are looking good.

But here only the top 32 out of about 300 get to Provincials anyway, so the chances are very slim of getting there.

I am dreading the first meet, now with a 1.0 deduction for a fall we are going to see some awful beam scores let alone some gobsmacked gymmies and parents!

I agree more meets would help, but I don't know how it could work in Quebec as we have a small population spread over so many miles. Some clubs travel about 7 hours to their 3 meets, just not workable to do more.
 
Hi all,

Thanks for your opinions. Just to clarify:

As gymnut said here in the UK we have a very different system - it is based on requirements, not set skills so for example at level 5 in my region on floor they have to have at least 7 skills to include

A full spin
A dance passage with 1 leap with 180 split
1 Acro element with flight
a 2nd acro element with flight

Skills above a B value are banned and somersaults are banned.

On beam the requirements are 7 skills to include the following

A coded mount
Acro forwards or sideways and backwards
1/2 spin
Dance series to include a leap jump or hop with 180 split cross position only.
Coded dismount

Again, nothing above a B and no somersaults on the beam

Vault Handspring flatback 110cm

Bars 7 elements to include:

Coded or 'allowed' mount (most do upward circle but get a bonus for kips)
1 bar change low to high
Coded or 'allowed' dismount (most do straddle shoot)

No giants allowed at this level

So as you can see the elements are really up to the coach - as long as they meet the requirements and don't perform any banned skills.

Only the top girls will really have every requirement met. The others as gymnut said will get as close as they can.

In my region level 5's HAVE to move to level 4 if they score 42 or above at any regional competition. So if they have a clean competition, only losing 0.5 of their start value for missing a requirement they can still hit that mark quite easily. One of my gymnasts scored 46.6 without the backwards element on beam.

This does mean that she now has to work her butt off for level 4 as the requirements are much harder, but I like a challenge!

Thanks again for all your comments I really appreciate them.

Just to say I normally would agree with not entering the comp without all required elements and in our grades competitions I stand by that (these are separate comps which happen in spring) However levels are a totally different kettle of fish!

Anyhow, The particular gymnast I referred to in my first post came to gym all smiles today - So Mum must have passed some of my messages on to her. She was determined as ever and went and stuck 5 backward walkovers in a row on the high beam straight away! I also wrote all of the girls a little 'well done' card and wrote in hers how proud I was of her that she challenged herself even if it didn't quite work out this time.

I'm pleased I made the decision to put it in - Think I just felt a little guilty yesterday - I didn't know if I was asking too much of her but you've all really helped to convince me it was a good decision :)

Sorry for the mamoth post!
Marie
 
It is a requirement in her region that they move up when they have a certain score. I don't know anywhere else in the UK that does that though.

I didn't realise that until I read another post on this board! I wonder why it only seems to be this region! I always feel it is a bit harsh on an 8 yr old to feel as though they have failed (we never use that word but they still feel it) if they don't hit 42. It's also harsh if they get 42 dead and have to move up - they often have to skip a year of levels competitions because they just aren't ready to compete.

So what happens in your region? Do they just keep repeating the same level until they have all the requirements for the next one?
 
Just curious, could they do a backward roll or a back shoulder roll to get credit for a backward acro and not lose the .5?
 
Just curious, could they do a backward roll or a back shoulder roll to get credit for a backward acro and not lose the .5?

I think the only other options for them would have been bhs or backward roll to handstand as it had to be either a coded skill or on the 'allowed' list.

Some of the top girls were doing bhs-bwo but these are the girls who will be following the elite pathway next year.

This is the first year that I've known a backwards element at level 5 in our region and as we only had the rules 5 weeks before the competition I hadn't really been focusing on bwo with the girls, just perfecting their other skills. We'll be more prepared next time!
 
I didn't realise that until I read another post on this board! I wonder why it only seems to be this region! I always feel it is a bit harsh on an 8 yr old to feel as though they have failed (we never use that word but they still feel it) if they don't hit 42. It's also harsh if they get 42 dead and have to move up - they often have to skip a year of levels competitions because they just aren't ready to compete.

So what happens in your region? Do they just keep repeating the same level until they have all the requirements for the next one?

Yes they move up when they feel ready. Some clubs tend not to go above level 5, others ceiling at level 4. Some clubs with elite track start at level 4. I think if some girls had to move up they would drop out especially in their early teens. They just wouldn't get enough skills at the next level to make it worth competing.

Your level 5 is like our level 6. Our level 5 is 2 upstarts on bars, BWO , cartwheel and somi dismount on beam, 3 flicks or flick tuck and front somi on floor and handspring vault. It is almost level 4. Some clubs prefer to do 2 years of level 4 instead and miss it out. I really wish they would set level 5 nationally.

And eeeek the 1 mark fall deduction. I have seen many scores of 1, 2 and 3 marks. You gotta laugh:eek:
 
And eeeek the 1 mark fall deduction. I have seen many scores of 1, 2 and 3 marks. You gotta laugh:eek:


I can see once of these in my not to distant future!:eek: With a start value of 12.5 I can see two falls just killing that D score.


I hadn't realised that routines in the UK were not uniform. We have a bit of that going on here too. Ontario has one code of point, the rest of Canada uses the other but they all modify it to fit their provinces needs. It really does add to confusion.
 
as long as the safety of the athlete is not compromised, how else will they progress without challenges of this kind?

secondly, it is about the process...not the end result at this level.
 
in my area(australia) you can compete at one level as many times as you like. to move up into the next level you have to do a comp which is also a level test and get a certain score to qualify for that level (ussually around 40- 44)

I didn't realise that until I read another post on this board! I wonder why it only seems to be this region! I always feel it is a bit harsh on an 8 yr old to feel as though they have failed (we never use that word but they still feel it) if they don't hit 42. It's also harsh if they get 42 dead and have to move up - they often have to skip a year of levels competitions because they just aren't ready to compete.

So what happens in your region? Do they just keep repeating the same level until they have all the requirements for the next one?
 

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