Wow do I dare ask ...what really is TOPS and TOPS CAMPS?

[DND]

I know there are a lot of posts about TOPS and camps an scores etc....so many that I can't really get through them. It really seems to touch the heart and nerve of many and I just can't get a handle on why or what it really is.

Correct me if I am wrong as this is what I have gathered thus far:

1. Children are tested on basic strength and agility

Question - Do gyms/coaches have to request to have their gym do the testing? If requested may they be denied or is it like mini skills only competitions and kids from a variety of clubs show up to be tested?

2. Children attain scores that fit into to a pre-determined age that rank them and depending on rank get invited to camp?

Question - Who and how determines the score ranges? Also is this based on all gymnasts from all over the US?

3. Children who have made the cut get invited to Camp A or B

Question - Are both camp at the same place? Are the kids in A and B all working on the same things or are they training at different levels?

How long is the camp an what do they do there? Do they train with their own coach or I have read National Coaches? How many national coaches can there be and are they not all busy with the National Team with World and Pan Am games?

I guess I just can't figure out why this seems to create such drama and hated discussions. The one thing I have learned in my short road as a gym mom; gymnastics is a marathon and not a sprint. Kids learn and peak at different speeds and times and they all have good days and bad.

In the end they all end up at the end of their road - whatever road that may be - ad all you can hope for is they are happy, healthy and they enjoyed the ride!

 

[bogwoppit]

I Just wrote a whole page answer to this, but it got eaten, I could weep.

 

[gymmomntc2e6]

I Just wrote a whole page answer to this, but it got eaten, I could weep.

that sucks Bog !!!!!

 

[bogwoppit]

Okay I will try again, this may be shorter though!

Link to the TOPs page, lots of great info there.

:: USA Gymnastics :: TOPs Program Overview ::

1. Children are tested on basic strength and agility

Question - Do gyms/coaches have to request to have their gym do the testing? If requested may they be denied or is it like mini skills only competitions and kids from a variety of clubs show up to be tested?

Kids test in the regions they live, just like entering a meet, any club can take kids. Not every club tests or trains the skills. THe only test agility and strength at the regional testings. Kids seem to test about three times during the summer months, the best score is what counts.

2. Children attain scores that fit into to a pre-determined age that rank them and depending on rank get invited to camp?

Girls are divided by age, the top perecentage of kids are invited to national testing. The TOP 7 years old that test are named to the National DIamond Team and get a lovely tama leo. This year 11 year olds were excluded from all testing, last year some 8 year olds were allowed to the camps.

Question - Who and how determines the score ranges? Also is this based on all gymnasts from all over the US?

The skills scores are gathered and the tops girls from across the USA go to the national testing, the regions do not decide. It is a percentage, therefore the scores needed change yearly. Strong years, weak years.

3. Children who have made the cut get invited to Camp A or B

Kids who have made the cut off go to a National Testing at the Texas Ranch, with their coaches. Lots of girls at this camp, local hotels are full of kids and their parents.

The girls all go at the same time regardless of score and then they are tested again and are also tested on a set of skills, like cast handstands etc. The results of this testing will decide who is on the A or B teams and who didn't make the cut off for either team. THe A and B team get to go back to the camp for a training camp.

Question - Are both camp at the same place? Are the kids in A and B all working on the same things or are they training at different levels?

Both training camps are at the same place, not at the same time. A team kids get a fully paid trip with their coaches. B team kids have to pay for themselves and their coach to go to their training camp, this is why many B team kids drop out, the costs are very high. Then they go down the list of girls to fill the spots and that is where the alternates discussion came from.

THe kids at both camp will train the skills they are ready for. THere are L9 kids in the B camp and L5 kids in the A camp and vice versa. Having strong testing scores does not mean a gymnast is a higher level or does better in regular meets.

How long is the camp an what do they do there? Do they train with their own coach or I have read National Coaches? How many national coaches can there be and are they not all busy with the National Team with World and Pan Am games?

I think the camp is for a week, could be wrong. THe kids train with their own coaches and with national team coaches who work there full time and who also work with the Elite girls. Camps are all held at the Karolyi Ranch in Texas, but all camps are held on different weeks. So there is not an issue with lack of coaches. The calendar is on the link above so you can see how it works. When the Elite teams go to camp they often have their own coaches with them.

I guess I just can't figure out why this seems to create such drama and hated discussions. The one thing I have learned in my short road as a gym mom; gymnastics is a marathon and not a sprint. Kids learn and peak at different speeds and times and they all have good days and bad.

The drama was about whether alternates should be able to go to the B camp and whether or not it is important for parents to know their kid made it in because another kid dropped aout. Drama was not about TOPs per se.

THough there is lots of discussion about TOPs, lots of the best gyms in the USA do not test TOPs, WOGA for instance. TOPs give coaches and opportunity to meet with higher level trainers and learn from them and then bring new skills back home. TOPs is a huge money maker for clubs who train, testing meets and the regions and USAG.

It does get kids faces known, but looking back in the last ten years of international teams, most of the gymnasts have not been TOPs kids. SO TOPs participation alone is not an indicator of anything. Though TOPs camps are wonderful, fun, exciting and an honour. Kids who go love them and always want to go back.

If you need to know more just ask, hopefully the gaps I left will get filled in and hoefully someone will fix the mistakes I made.

 

[Granny Smith]

I can not figure out the multi-quote button so will do my best in keeping it like Bog did above. I see she is probably more detailed in her answers that I am :

1. Children are tested on basic strength and agility

Question - Do gyms/coaches have to request to have their gym do the testing? If requested may they be denied or is it like mini skills only competitions and kids from a variety of clubs show up to be tested?

There is testing held all over the country. All your gym has to do is sign up for the testing and go. They can also go multiple times, it's not just one and done (unless that is what you coach chooses.) So if a gymnast has had an off day, they can try again. Then again if a coach only signs up for 1 test, then if you have an off day, the gymnast is stuck with their scores. There is no skills done at the summer testing, I believe. I think it is all based on the strength & flexibility. All of these test happen over the summer. Then the girls are invited to the ranch in Sept/Oct, based on their scores where they actually have certain skills that they have to perform (based on their age) in addition to the strengh & flexibility and other tests.


2. Children attain scores that fit into to a pre-determined age that rank them and depending on rank get invited to camp?

Question - Who and how determines the score ranges? Also is this based on all gymnasts from all over the US?

The people who determine the scores are the National Coordinators after they have observed the campers at the ranch, where all girls from all over the US come.

3. Children who have made the cut get invited to Camp A or B

Question - Are both camp at the same place? Are the kids in A and B all working on the same things or are they training at different levels?

Both camps are at the exact same place, A camp goes 1 weekend, B camp goes immediately following the A weekend during the week. They all work the exact same thing and are seen by the exact same people. Really the only difference is that B campers pay to go, while A doesn't.

I guess I just can't figure out why this seems to create such drama and hated discussions. The one thing I have learned in my short road as a gym mom; gymnastics is a marathon and not a sprint. Kids learn and peak at different speeds and times and they all have good days and bad.

It's not Tops or the process of tops, I think the drama only comes from the parents. This is a message board and while we all have the right to say whatever we want, there are those who should learn to speak with a a little humility and compassion. It's when things are spoken with disregard of other people's feelings that things blow up. I am sure some of the stuff that has been posted on the CB, the original posters would not say to another person face-to-face. It's so easy to post on this board without compassion or humility because of the anonymity of a user name, but what most don't realize is that it's so easy to figure out who people are IRL and see ones true colors.


In the end they all end up at the end of their road - whatever road that may be - ad all you can hope for is they are happy, healthy and they enjoyed the ride!
I love your take on the sport, may your child accomplish all she/he chooses too!

 

[MaryA]

Is TOPS more prevolent in some areas of the country than in others? In spite of my DD being on a gymnastics team for 4+ years now, having traveled to many gyms in this state for meets, and having been on the websites of most of the gyms she's competed at/against, I would never have heard of TOPS if it wasn't for this site.

 

[thnkGd4kds]

Wonderful answers, Bog and Granny Smith!

The only difference, besides cost (A's may have to pay their own coaches' fee depending on the gym; B's pay more) in the camps, which run a few days each in December, is that often a different "celebrity" gymnast attends each, though those "celebs" are the same caliber and are equally exciting to the young gymmies.

People test regionally as often as they want. Our DD (B camp) tested once each summer, but I know people who have done 4. I've heard of people doing more, but that's hearsay.

For me, a couple the true purposes of the program include seeing if a gymmie likes to compete in that atmosphere ( it does have a different feel down at National Testing) and train in that environment if the gymmie makes one of the camps. For the gymmies, it's a great chance to clarify their own goals in the sport. For in-tune, grounded parents who are focused on their gymmies' needs and desires and not their own ambitions for their gymmies, it can be revealing as they observe their gymmies throughout this process and discuss it with them, making sure not to push their own agenda (however subconscious that may be) or desires. Some gymmies will go away feeling neutral or not liking everything; some will go away wanting more and eagerly planning their next move to get down there again. No matter what the result, it's absolutely not a sole predictor of future success even though it's a tremendous accomplishment just being among the small percentage who make it to testing. There are too many variables in this sport for that. (In DD's own case, for example, she's sometimes outscored A team members at meets, and, sometimes, friends of hers from B camp who scored lower than her at Nationals or never did TOPs have outscored her at meets. Then, there are factors such as injury, burn-out, the fact that gyms don't do TOPs--including some very high-quality ones--, other interests coming into play, etc.)

Any controversy is amongst parents. It seems like TOPs, unfortunately, tends to bring out the "crazy gym mom" syndrome. I have witnessed otherwise rational parents turning a bit loony during TOPs time, and, honestly, it was during DD's first TOPs experience that I saw how I need to keep a careful eye on my own behavior/words/actions/thoughts/etc. TOPs Nationals was my first encounter with Dr. Alison Arnold, as she spoke to the parents there, and I embraced everything she said! See the sticky about Top 10 Code for Parents in the Parents Forum of CB if you haven't seen it before.

 

[Muddlethru]

Is TOPS more prevolent in some areas of the country than in others? In spite of my DD being on a gymnastics team for 4+ years now, having traveled to many gyms in this state for meets, and having been on the websites of most of the gyms she's competed at/against, I would never have heard of TOPS if it wasn't for this site.

MaryA, the reason you probably do not hear too much about TOPS at meets, etc. is because it is quite exclusive. Out of the 70,000 registered gymnasts, using this year's statistics, only around 2,500 gymnasts tested on the regional level and only less than 300 are invited to participate in the national testing. In our region of 7 states, only 9 gymnasts ages 7-10 either qualified to national testing or was part of the diamond team (7 yo). That is a significantly small number. So if you are not in the "system" so to speak, you may never be exposed to it. In addition, there are also many gyms who do not advocate TOPs for their gymnasts for many reasons. One being TOPs can be an expensive endeavor for most gyms. With only one or two gymnasts in each gym qualifying to go to national testing, the cost to have a coach away from the gym entire weekend may be too costly, not to mention the months preparation before hand. Most successful Team A and B members practice insane number of hours.

 

[bribri514]

also TOPs has changed over time. Back in the early 90s, elites were concentrated in an ever fewer number of gyms and most girls moved to train at high levels. the idea behind TOPs was to find girls who might go towards elite and give a way to find them and to give their coaches training. In the 90s, at least for me and the girls I knew it was far more common for TOPs to just be a testing program. Now a days gyms have turned it into a money maker, setting up special TOPs tracks and programs where girls pay loads more money to train LOTS of hours for 7-9 year olds. USAG hasn't set up a special TOPs program to implement, so it seems like the gyms have a lot more to gain from the way things are being done now. A lot of gyms don't have it, not just because of the money, but because they don't see it as a good use of resources. you can uptrain and go elite without TOPs at all, but by using the name it gives parents the idea that it's a USAG sanctioned way to make their DDs elite.

 

[coachmolly]

Is TOPS more prevolent in some areas of the country than in others? In spite of my DD being on a gymnastics team for 4+ years now, having traveled to many gyms in this state for meets, and having been on the websites of most of the gyms she's competed at/against, I would never have heard of TOPS if it wasn't for this site.

I think it depends on the gym and how much of a priority they place on TOPs. You'll notice that many of the same gyms are represented year after year on the National teams, and those are typically the ones that spend a ton of time training it. Every once in a while a new name will pop up, but overall the gym names are pretty consistent. Not many gyms in your area are ultra-invested in TOPs- at least not that I know of. Some of the gyms might train it and go to regional testings, but I don't think it's a huge priority. At least it wasn't when I was competing/coaching in that area. I think something like 2 gyms in Pennsylvania sent kids to National testing this year.

 

[MaryA]

I think it depends on the gym and how much of a priority they place on TOPs. You'll notice that many of the same gyms are represented year after year on the National teams, and those are typically the ones that spend a ton of time training it. Every once in a while a new name will pop up, but overall the gym names are pretty consistent. Not many gyms in your area are ultra-invested in TOPs- at least not that I know of. Some of the gyms might train it and go to regional testings, but I don't think it's a huge priority. At least it wasn't when I was competing/coaching in that area. I think something like 2 gyms in Pennsylvania sent kids to National testing this year.

Which two, do you know?

 

[wandrewsjr]

"TOPs is a huge money maker for clubs who train, testing meets and the regions and USAG."

I have never commented on these threads beforeIexcept to offer technical advice), as I didn't want to get drawn into drama. But I have heard the above sentiment expressed by a few members MANY times now, and I feel the need to respond. My gym trains TOPS, and it is far from a "huge money maker". We don't charge the kids extra, except the entrance fees for the regionals competitions, and to cover the coaches travel costs to the regional and national tests if they make it.

PLEASE don't generalize about all gyms.

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

TOPs IS a huge money maker for the gyms (at least in my area) who DO charge extra for that training. It's not an opinion, it is a fact. There are 4 gyms in my area that currently train TOPs. Going further out, there are quite a few as well. They ALL charge a monthly tuition rate for the TOPs training. One of my DD's old gym charges upwards of $100.00 extra/month for that training. And the interesting thing is... only 1 girl from the whole area has qualified to one of the camps. My DD's old gym has "trained" girls for the past 3 years... not one girl has passed the initial testing. The owner runs the training, so there is no coach to pay. They invite girls to "train" who are already too old for testing. To be honest, I'm betting the parents aren't fully informed about the program, otherwise why would their daughters be training in that group?

I don't think anyone has said ALL gyms in any of the posts? Maybe I'm wrong. At any rate, kudos to the gyms who do NOT charge extra... but from what my personal experience has shown, I think they're the minority.

 

[wandrewsjr]

Maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't the above quote I mentioned imply ALL gyms?

 

[coachmolly]

Which two, do you know?

Parkettes and Butler sent girls to National testing, I think only Parkettes has girls that qualified to A or B camp.

 

[thnkGd4kds]

To respond to the idea that most/many/all gyms charge extra, I'll just quote part of what I posted on another thread. It just pertains to my experience with TOPs.:

When gyms charge more for TOPs (and I'm sure there are gyms who do), that's a rip-off. I know there are plenty of gyms that do charge. However, I'm fortunate that this has not been the case at either of my DD's gyms. We paid nothing extra except the minimal entry fee to regional testing (doesn't go towards our gym) and then National Testing. At the first gym she was at for years, only TOPs girls trained TOPs, and that was a legitimate complaint of those not selected for it. At DD's gym now, every gymnast does it as part of their regular conditioning.

Maybe the gyms like these are the minority; I obviously don't know. It'd be interesting to find out. Poll, anyone?

 

[BachFlyer]

Maybe the gyms like these are the minority; I obviously don't know. It'd be interesting to find out. Poll, anyone?

In the interest of fairness to the TOPs program and the good coaches out there, which both tend to get a bit of a bad rap, I will partake in the poll Our gym does not charge extra for TOPs, we pay the same as the current level that the kids are competing. In fact, our coach even offered free privates in the weeks leading up to national testing just to help with some skills, so I don't see the $$ scheme in our case. We may be lucky, I don't know.

Also, for our girls, TOP starts out as part of the development program, just a little higher level for the girls who seem to have some more natural strength and flexability that might otherwise be bored or at least lack challenge at some of the other developmental levels. Some of the younger girls who aren't ready to compete yet ONLY do TOP practice, and the girls who are already competing substitute two days of regular practice with TOPs. They focus mainly on conditioning and perfecting skills at their current level and above. We have kids of all levels in our group. My dd made B camp this year as a 10yo and trains about 22 hours a week, same during the summer and the same as the other girls training L8 (and she is not homeschooled LOL).


I am a huge fan of the program and contrary to what some people have said about overuse, I think that her increased strength and flexiblity have done worlds to prevent injury, especially in her shoulders which are "loose", and I think that some of our upper level girls would be less likely to get injured if they had more core and shoulder strength (we have L8s that can't do a press handstand). I also think that it has been a HUGE confidence booster for her in that she has seen drastic improvements - her handstand hold increased from about 5 seconds to 60 seconds in her first year, for example - and she knows that with persistance and determination she can overcome challenges in and out of the gym. She also knows she's a very tough cookie and that has helped her mental toughness in regular competition. And finally, travelling off to the ranch has its own benefits - it's fun! first of all, it's helped her gain independence generally speaking (life skill) and bother her eyes and her coaches eyes have been opened to other ways of teaching and learning.

My biggest complaint, if you can call it that, is that i think increased conditioning for everyone would be beneficial, and sometimes wonder why it's not more inclusive. But then again, not all kids or parents are interested in it, or see the value in it - some kids cry during regular conditioning and my daughter loves the challenge. Some parents opted out, but then look back and wish thier kids had developed the same strength. Everyone is different. I know all gyms are different too, but for us the benefits are quite substantial and i just want to share them so that people considering the program don't just the negative.

 

[Mom2twingymnasts]

At our gym, I don't see TOPs as a money maker - really just the opposite. All kids at the gym do the TOPs conditioning as part of the regular workouts. The TOPs and HOPEs kids at the gym have 2 additional practices 2 mornings per week for 5 extra hours of training per week. We pay an extra $50/month for that training which amounts to about $2.25 per hour. The TOPs/HOPEs group is a small group - has been from 7 - 12 girls in the group. There are usually 2 coaches at the TOPs practices and they are the best coaches. Also, I think the gym covered some/much of the coaches travel to the national testing and are covering some of the expense of the coaches travel to B camp. I think our gym views TOPs as a great program and want to make it as affordable as possible for the girls they invite into the program.

 

[gymcoach34]

We do extra TOPs workouts- so they pay for the extra gym time- but its no money maker- I think they pay like 5 bucks an hour for the most experienced coach in the gym to train them. You cant even get a teenage babysitter for 5 bucks an hour!

 

[Muddlethru]

My daughter's gym is pretty small. But our gym does NOT charge extra for abilities TOPS training. And it is without a doubt NOT a money maker at our gym. It is actually the opposite. The coaches put in more time and effort than they are paid, at least our gym. We did pay extra once my daughter was the only one that qualified for national testing. But I am ok with that since there was no need to train the other girls those skills when they may not even be prepared to learn them. We paid for maybe 3 one hour private lessons, but the coach spent more than 2 hours with her. Our coach also did a few extra training, without charge.

I must commend our HC because I think our HC is not motivated by money but is more interested in providng the best opportunities for the gymnasts. So, I will have to disagree with tumblequeen and say that gyms that use TOPS as a moneymaker is more of the minority. Maybe the gyms that use TOPS as a moneymaker is more concentrated in her area but I would hope that the great majority of the gyms in our country are not in business to mislead. But I am sure there are indeed gyms that take advantage of any opportunity to make money.

But the question still puzzles me (and our gym does this too), why do gyms have to hand pick who can participate in TOPS training. The gyms who participate in TOPS year after year, know it benefits the kids to use this type of conditioning, but why is it not incorporated into the daily work out?