Parents Feeling frustrated.... but maybe I shouldn't be?

[CLgym]

Let me start by saying that I know I can be a little sensitive to feeling my DD is getting treated like "sloppy seconds" because of our experience at old gym.... So I am looking for a bit of a reality check, I guess. Or maybe I'm justified to feel frustrated? Here is the scenario:

For the last 3 months, all of the age-eligible girls at the gym have been practicing TOPS two days a week. This is approximately 18 girls and spans Levels 3 (5 girls), Level 4 (10 girls) Level 5 (2 girls), and one Level 7. For the most part, they've been split into two groups (a high and low group - although gym would never admit that!). My DD (L4) was mostly in the low group, but sometimes the high group depending on numbers that day.

Gym did internal TOPS testing at the end of last week, and told girls that the final TOPS team was picked. Yesterday at gym there were new groups. I watched for quite a bit (my mistake, I know!!)

The TOPS group was 7 girls (the L7, the two L5 girls, and 4 girls from the L4 group). My DD was in the second group with the remainder of girls -- so 11 girls total. This second group has very disparate skill levels. For example, DD is successfully training giants on pit bar (no straps), while most of the Level 3 girls still do not have their kip. On floor, DD and a few others have their ROBHSBT, while one of the younger Level 3 girls is still doing RO drills. Bottom line, it did not appear to be a very effective practice. Too many girls. Too many abilities. Too few stations. Too much standing around. One coach (ratio is 11:1). On the other hand (I'm sure you can see where this is going), the TOPS girls had an effective and productive session with a much lower coach to gymnast ratio, more/better stations, etc.

To be clear, I am NOT suggesting my daughter deserves a TOPS spot. The truth is, while she regularly wins gym contests for the TOPS leg lifts and rope climb, she struggles with other TOPS physical abilities (e.g., has only one press handstand) Plus, fears on beam would make it highly unlikely she would master the TOPS beam routine on high beam in time. On the other hand, she is pretty close with TOPS bars and floor skills (about the same as many of the TOPS girls).

Communication regarding all of this is non-existent. Girls get bits of info from coaches in gym. Parents think these groups (TOPS vs. NOT) will be in place for the remainder of spring and summer while the TOPS girls prepare for testing. Not sure if it will be 2 days/week or possibly more as testing gets closer. While there is no reason to believe TOPS will define level placement next season, based on my observations yesterday there is no question which group will be better prepared for moving up levels! (I really can't emphasize enough how much better the TOPS group was trained; drills that my DD has and can do...) I suppose it's also worth noting that we all pay the same tuition (there is no extra TOPS fee, except for the cost of testing in the summer).

So that was super long. Thanks if you are still reading - it was helpful to get it off my chest! Should I say anything? Ask questions? Keep watching to see if it improves? Or just let it go? Am I right to feel frustrated? Thanks!

 

[FlippinLilysMom]

How many coaches do they have working with the TOPS girls? That is a large group. Our gym has 5 girls currently in the TOPS program with 4 HOPES girls that come just to do the workouts with them.

 

[Texasmomof3]

It was one practice, right? Things very well may change multiple times, as they see what does and does not work.

One, I would ask. You don't know what is going on unless you ask. You are a paying customer, not just a voyeur with idle curiosity. So there is nothing wrong with asking. You can mention that you don't normally watch practice but saw some of it yesterday and it made you wonder about their plan since the skills were so varied in your dd's group. Don't judge or accuse. Just ask and listen.

Two, I would not watch practices unless your child is telling you she has a problem/concern that you want to see for yourself.

 

[CLgym]

How many coaches do they have working with the TOPS girls?

The TOPS group (7 girls total) also has one coach at a time. Actually, if I'm being specific, both groups share the same two coaches (they just flip flop depending on events). In my experience both coaches are good -- but somehow things just really didn't work for the larger group of 11 (the non-TOPS group).

 

[CLgym]

It was one practice, right?

Yes, just that one practice. For that reason, my DH thinks I should let it go for awhile... And while I totally agree that I should NOT watch (I hardly ever do because of a long commute on both ends), I also know that my DD (she is 8 years old) would never come home and complain about things like coach-gymnast ratio, standing around, etc. Our conversations after practice go something like this:
Me: "So, how was gym today?"
DD: "Fine. Can I have ice cream after dinner?"

 

[gymbeam]

I don't have a lot to add, but to hopefully make you feel a little better here's a few things that come to mind for me:

First, our gym fees are also based on hours regardless of coach/gymnast ratio. (We have a lot of different groups where some are 4:1 and some are 8:1- never 11:1 though. Eleven does seem too much so hopefully it is temporary.)

Also, a good thing about your gym I picked up on from your post is that they did give all age-eligible girls a shot at TOPS. Many gyms would have pre-selected who was even going to be able to try for TOPS and narrowed their focus to only those select few from the very beginning. Perhaps they gave them all a try while having a set number in mind that they would select to "take the next step".

At 8, she still has plenty of time to shine. TOPS is not the only way to great future successes in gymnastics. Try not to get too hung up on it. Encourage her to stay positive, and committed and emphasize that even without TOPS she can still achieve everything the TOPS girls can do. There are many, many powerhouse gyms that do not even do TOPS.

Also, I think your hubby is right. Give it a little time. I truly believe that coaches would not let potential go unrealized. They want everyone to do their best. You have to trust they know what's best for your child's progression at the moment. Her current placement doesn't have to be her forever placement. With each year and level you'll see girls peak and plateau. This isn't going to dictate her future, in other words. HUGS!

 

[QueenBee]

Honestly...I think it is a mistake to get too upset over TOPS groupings. TOPS is a very specific, *terminal* program that is built for a very specific type of gymnast and a very specific purpose. I think every gymnast can benefit from TOPS training, but very few gymnasts should/will be testing TOPS. If your gym is giving all the gymnasts the training and separately out those who will probably be testing - that makes a lot of sense to me.

It would make no sense (to me, a parent) to have gymnasts who cannot actually do all the skills test for TOPS. Full disclosure - my daughter doesn't/didn't do TOPS. She is not a naturally strong gymnast and even as a training Level 9, she struggles on certain days to complete more than a couple of press handstands in one sitting, and getting up the rope in pike position is something she can do (and does daily) but you see the effort every single time. She has teammates who can crank out press handstands all the live long day and shimmy up that rope like little monkeys.

My daughter hasn't been 'held back' by not doing TOPS training and not doing TOPS testing. She has teammates who have done both successfully, and there is not a 1-to-1 correlation between training/testing TOPS and being at the top at competitions during meet season. Each gymnast is going to have different needs in training.

I know it can be hard to watch when it seems like come gymnasts are getting 'more' or 'better' attention from the coaches. But, if you generally believe your gym coaches are good coaches doing their best - believe that they are giving your daughter exactly what she needs and don't worry about who is put in what group during TOPS training, or what one practice might look like to someone in the waiting room.

 

[gymbeam]

Also, considering she is only 8, she will probably have an opportunity to try again next year.

 

[CLgym]

@gymbeam and @QueenBee -- Thank you for the perspective. Exactly what I needed.

But, if you generally believe your gym coaches are good coaches doing their best - believe that they are giving your daughter exactly what she needs

I truly believe that coaches would not let potential go unrealized. They want everyone to do their best.

A good thing to keep reminding myself. In fact, yesterday after bars, DD said that the coach pulled her out individually (other girls were taking off grips/getting water) in order to work giants for a couple of minutes because coach said "You need to do giants everyday!" So I know this coach cares. I guess I just wish she was working the skills she needed during regular rotations, instead getting pulled out for a few minutes here and there... It really isn't so much about TOPS or not, but rather the impact that decision had on the groupings. But I'm starting to feel better already - thnx

 

[l.c.o]

How long has your DD been in this sport?

First, group sizes are always changing and will likely always be uneven. Even if a gym is so attentive to groups that they're readjusted a couple times per year to be exactly equal, there will always be kids who quit, kids who end up injured and out of the gym awhile, families who take long vacations, etc. My DD has been training in a group of 9-10 kids for about a year. My DS has been in a group of 4-5 kids. It's not "fair", but it's how it worked out. Now things will readjust for the summer.

Second, I actually also think that the fact that all of the kids were given an opportunity to train and potentially compete TOPs is a great sign. I don't know of any programs in our area that allow local kids the same opportunity. You make the TOPs training group, or you don't. Those that don't only practice with their JO level groups.

Gymnastics is not a fair sport. It's something my kids and I have learned repeatedly. There are talented kids who slack off and cheat strength but win all of meets, and there hard workers who struggle to occasionally medal.

The fact of the matter is not all kids can be in the better group, get better coaches, get better hours, etc. Some kids get left behind. Sometimes due to age, sometimes due to current ability, sometimes due to perceived potential, and sometimes simply due to numbers. It's not fair. It's not fair that two groups of kids can train the same number of hours, but have different levels of coaching, and pay the same exact tuition, etc., but it happens.

Sometimes our kids "win" and are in one of the "better" training groups. Sometimes, they're not, and we, as parents, have to reevaluate to decide whether it's "worth it" or not. Is the extra TOPs training time worth the extra associated costs (incl wear and tear on their bodies, drive time, missed opportunities, etc), even in the 'lower' group? You have to decide. I'd guess that it probably often is, despite the frustration of being in the lower group. While it may be true that she might maybe progress more if she'd been placed in the other TOPs group, it's probably also true that she's probably going to progress more quickly in the lower TOPs group than with no TOPs group.

On the bright side, maybe being "left behind" will light a fire in her. Plus, I imagine that all those TOPs kids that will compete this summer will work routines soon, whereas maybe the lower group will concentrate on getting stronger on the individual skills and be able to play a bit of catch up. It may be better to be the strongest in that situation, vs the weakest one being allowed to compete.

 

[CLgym]

How long has your DD been in this sport?

Three years total (one year rec/preteam, one year Xcel Bronze, one year L4). And I am definitely learning there are ups and downs and curves along the way! Thank you for your insight. At the risk of sounding defensive, I wanted to reiterate that I am really not feeling sour grapes over DD not being selected for the final TOPS group. All of the girls were given a chance (kudos to our gym for that!) but DD didn't have all of her skills in time. Fair and square. But now that she is moving back to "regular" gymnastics on those days, I would still like to see her working at an appropriate level with a reasonable coach:gymnast ratio. That's fair, right? Or I don't know.... maybe I'm sinking into CGM territory! Yikes, how quickly it can happen!!

 

[wandrewsjr]

So is there a separate group of "older" girls at her level practicing at the same time? Or are these TOPS age girls coming in for extra practices from the other compulsories?

 

[l.c.o]

Three years total (one year rec/preteam, one year Xcel Bronze, one year L4). And I am definitely learning there are ups and downs and curves along the way! Thank you for your insight. At the risk of sounding defensive, I wanted to reiterate that I am really not feeling sour grapes over DD not being selected for the final TOPS group. All of the girls were given a chance (kudos to our gym for that!) but DD didn't have all of her skills in time. Fair and square. But now that she is moving back to "regular" gymnastics on those days, I would still like to see her working at an appropriate level with a reasonable coach:gymnast ratio. That's fair, right? Or I don't know.... maybe I'm sinking into CGM territory! Yikes, how quickly it can happen!!

I didn't mean to put you on the defensive at all. Was just trying to be honest about my thoughts on it all. I didn't necessarily feel you were thinking sour grapes, but I picked up on maybe a bit of frustration. Was just trying to highlight that it's not an usual place to be in.

A good coach is going to be able to differentiate training within groups, at least to some degree. If this isn't happening, or if it doesn't happen, then that's unfortunate.

That said, taking some time to develop isn't necessarily an awful thing, either. Maybe while she's not always pushing to the next skill, she's working to perfect something that isn't so strong, with lower level kids...

Will the non-competing TOPs group dissolve?

 

[sce]

So this is 2 days per week? I assume she practices with her level other days? Also, this was one practice. The coaches probably realize the range of abilities in the group and hopefully will make plan that address it. Also, sometimes what looks like not doing much is a drill that is actually doing a lot. My Ds happened to be the only one at practice one day (other kids on spring break). From the outside it looked like he was doing very little. From far away it seemed just a bunch of handstands. But the coach sent me a video after practice (a practice Ds said was VERY hard). Those handstands were on parameters and involved home letting go of one side at a time, repeatedly. He also held those handstands a long time. This was not all he did that day, though it was about 1/3 of the practice). Everything he did looked about as simple, yet was really working on something specific and overall was not actually simple.

 

[GymDad9.9]

your gym was offering TOPS training at no additional cost, that's not so bad. I pay about $100 a month for my daughter's TOPS program dysfunction!

 

[CLgym]

So is there a separate group of "older" girls at her level practicing at the same time? Or are these TOPS age girls coming in for extra practices from the other compulsories?

For the most part, all of the compulsory gymnasts are age-eligible for TOPS. TOPS practices occur during regular practice time, twice a week, and started at the end of January. For the past three months, the groups have been fairly evenly divided (there was a high and a low group, but girls were moved around to keep numbers even) and always covered the same skills. Starting yesterday, the girls were placed in either in the 7-person TOPS group, or the 11-person NOT group. Skills/drill were different, and obviously groups were uneven sizes. There are only three "older" compulsory girls (too old for TOPS). They have been training with the Level 6 group on the two days per week that were dedicated to TOPS. That was true yesterday as well.

Will the non-competing TOPs group dissolve?

I think the plan is to keep the non-competing TOPS group together for the spring and summer on those two TOPS days (but possibly more as TOPS testing gets closer). The main reason is probably related to staffing. I'm sure the coaches would love to break the larger group apart into L3 (training L4) and L4 (training L5/6/7), however the compulsory coaches are now juggling an extra group (the 7-person TOPS group) so I'm not sure how they could possibly do it unless a new coach were added.

So this is 2 days per week?

Yes, only twice a week so far. That means three days/week DD practices with her level, or a sub-group within her level.

I pay about $100 a month for my daughter's TOPS program dysfunction!

Well, I guess there is that silver lining!

 

[Sasha]

I get why you feel bad and it is justified to have these feelings. It is reality, and it hurts when our kid doesn't quite make into the 'chosen' group, whatever that may be. I have been there, and it was a heavy weight. This new TOPS group (the ones who made it, were chosen) will indeed likely get better training in the form of smaller groups, more attentive coaching, and, likely, more 'pushing' to attempt to gain skills more quickly, while the "NOT TOPS" group will have to live with more divided attention as skills within the group vary, less favorable coach ratio, etc. The TOPS girls have been chosen for a potentially higher goal - chance at elite, and they will likely advance faster in skills and levels in an attempt to get there. On the extremely awesome bright side, though, it sounds like your DD will have the same great coaches as the TOPS group, and she had an amazing chance to develop TOPS-style strength and skills while she was in this tryout phase that will definitely benefit her long-term JO career. That is much better than many gyms offer - so I think she will be just fine

Back to the fairness question, this isn't 'fair' in one sense, but it also IS 'fair' to the most advanced girls to give them more attentive coaching and push them faster to try to reach a difficult goal. 7 girls in the TOPS group vs 9 or 10 can absolutely make a difference to these girls who will likely be faced with some tough timelines and goals. The truth is the non-TOPS JO group can afford to take a little more time to advance as the goals are different (even college vs. elite). Most girls who start out in TOPS drop off that path at some point. While your daughter may indeed "take off" in skills at some point and surpass some of them.

No crystal ball, but given your story, it sounds like you are in a competent, caring program that will take your DD where she needs to go. It may not be on the 'fast' track right now, but it can absolutely be the right track for her.

P.S. 11 girls with 1 coach is much better than we have sometimes experienced (up to 15-1). My daughter's current L5-L7 group has 10 and is very productive! So your ratio is not too bad

 

[l.c.o]

Like Sasha said... My own DD has never really been in that "chosen" group, either. But some of those girls who have been in those chosen groups (over a couple of gyms) have dealt with burnout and injuries at a higher rate than my DD and her non-TOPS teammates. It's a bit of silver lining, we like to say. Plus, my DD feels less overall pressure than many of those kids, even if it's occasionally frustrating for her to be taking the more "scenic" route through the levels.

And at this point, those TOPs girls who have remained are extremely talented, but my DD actually isn't all that far behind a few of those kids these days.

I'm glad your DD will continue to have access to the same coaching, and will also have those two "extra days". She'll still benefit from it in the long run. I totally get feeling like it's unfair (don't ask me about my kid's gyms' summer groups, please), but each kids' path is their own, and it should still be celebrated.

Overall, the gym's responsibility is to look after its' best interests as a whole. As parents, our job is to look after our kids' interests. If your DD is still happy and making progress, you probably can't ask for much more than that.

I just read Pretty Girls in Little Boxes this weekend. So... sorry if my posts today have come off a little bit uncharacteristically jaded - some of it has stuck with me, a bit!

 

[CLgym]

I just read Pretty Girls in Little Boxes this weekend. So... sorry if my posts today have come off a little bit uncharacteristically jaded - some of it has stuck with me, a bit!

Was it good? I've thought about reading it a few times... maybe now is perfect timing!!

 

[l.c.o]

Was it good? I've thought about reading it a few times... maybe now is perfect timing!!

I thought that the writing itself was not particularly great - it was blocky and the chapters dragged.

But - I think it provided some good, if anecdotal, insight into this sport back in the 80s-90s (mostly the US during Bela Karyoli's time coaching).I suspect there have been some relevant, positive change to elite gymnastics since, though I also get the (possibly wrong) impression that some trends remain.

It also covered some figure skating.

Anyway, it was a good book to read to get some perspective on this sport overall, and it provided great examples of how not to parent our athlete kids. It helped me appreciate more the place my DD is in.

It was a bit hard to read in places, emotionally. I'd probably recommend it - you might find some value in reading it.