MAG FS questions

[Madden3]

Our gym only started putting a toe into FS recently and I am trying to understand it better. Can someone walk me through the ages for each FS level and the difference in difficulty between them? It would also help to know what minimum JO Level each FS age might be typical. (For example, for what JO level(s) would an 11 year old typically be preparing to compete if he was also doing FS?) Also wondering if there are differences from last year. (Aside from the age date.)

Thanks!

 

[Sasha]

I don't know anything about the new routines, so I can only speak to the recent past and guessing about the new age implications.. (and I asked all these same questions about a year or so ago when it was new at our gym - lol).

- Age 6-7 have previously been the same routines, approximately level 5 (with some bonuses). (I don't know if ages have separated out this year)
- Age 8 and 9 USED TO be the same routines, approximately level 6+ to 7. Last year, some regions went rogue and broke out a set of 8 year old routines (different from the nationally published routines) that were easier, as almost no 8 year olds were even attempting the routines. Now, sources indicate that 8 year olds will have their own set of routines - I am guessing largely aligned with level 6.
- Age 9 is roughly level 7
- Age 10 is roughly level 8
- Age 11+ starts the Technical Sequences (to also compete alongside optional routines in JE competitions). I *think* Ages 11-14 have one set (aligned with level 8-9), and it gets more difficult at age 15+, but someone step in here as I never followed that as closely.

So I would say an 11 year old should have just completed a decent L8 season to be in best position to handle the FS/TS (same thing) routines, or perhaps a fabulous L7 season. Though getting started with FS routines now (even if skills wouldn't be competable this season) is, imo, still worthwhile as he can continue to work the same TS routines for the next couple years (unless this has changed with the age changes).

Sorry I don't have more specifics. Our coach has not yet shared the specific routines with us for this next quad.

 

[skschlag]

Except now I do not think there will be 10 yo in level 8. So it will change somewhat. I hope this info gets out soon for those interested!

 

[Sasha]

Except now I do not think there will be 10 yo in level 8. So it will change somewhat. I hope this info gets out soon for those interested!

Right. So mysterious!

Could be they will scale back a bit on difficulty for age since age classifications have shifted from "Min Age" to "Max Age" - as in, Age 10 is "Max age 10" with the May cutoff, rather than "Min age 10" as it was with the Sept cutoff.

All I know is my 9 year old is training L7 skills and FS 9. His 10 year old (with the new age changes) TM is training slightly harder skills, but not drastically. So perhaps 9 year old FS is equivalent to L7, and 10 y/o more like L7+ bonuses - who knows!! Guessy guess guess.

(ETA: at risk of hijacking thread into vent - 9 year olds can't even compete L7 now with age changes, but apparently still need L7 skills for FS. But our coach could just be mis-informed and may not actually have the full new FS routines yet, and just using old FS routines. I have not verified this with him.)

 

[SMC]

@Sasha all I have gotten info on is the 8 and 9 yr old fs routines as our son is turning 9 soon. The 9yr olds are similar to last years fs 8 yr old, but they don't vault with a vault table they just hit the board and do a front pike or something along those lines. They still need back Giants on hb but not front Giants, loops on pommel, rings were similar to level 6 with bonus (handstand) and pbars seem similar to last years 8 yr old routines. Floor seemed about like last year and Strength and trampoline are also about the same. I can't remember flexibility but that may be the same for all.

It looked like the 8 yr old routines were quite a bit easier- floor mushroom circles, front tuck off spring board for Vault, no giants or kip etc.

Coaches get the future stars info at the same meeting they get the new JO routines, it should all be out after the last meeting in San Jose.

Sorry it's a bit scattered- typing on my phone and trying to remember details . [emoji51]

 

[Sasha]

@Sasha all I have gotten info on is the 8 and 9 yr old fs routines as our son is turning 9 soon. The 9yr olds are similar to last years fs 8 yr old, but they don't vault with a vault table they just hit the board and do a front pike or something along those lines. They still need back Giants on hb but not front Giants, loops on pommel, rings were similar to level 6 with bonus (handstand) and pbars seem similar to last years 8 yr old routines. Floor seemed about like last year and Strength and trampoline are also about the same. I can't remember flexibility but that may be the same for all.

It looked like the 8 yr old routines were quite a bit easier- floor mushroom circles, front tuck off spring board for Vault, no giants or kip etc.

Coaches get the future stars info at the same meeting they get the new JO routines, it should all be out after the last meeting in San Jose.

Sorry it's a bit scattered- typing on my phone and trying to remember details . [emoji51]

Thanks for the scoop! Interesting about no vault table and no front giants... Our 9 year old FS-ers are practicing clear-hip-handstand and pirouettes on HB with gusto, as well as pbar giants and pirouettes.. loops and turns on pommel for 9 y/o, with travel for 10 y/o.. so I had been assuming all those were needed FS skills (which are beyond L6)... but who knows, maybe coach is working higher level skills while it's summer and FS will actually be 'easier' skill-wise. Guess I'll know eventually!

 

[Madden3]

Thanks this is helpful. OK just to clarify...

If a child is turning 11 next May, they would compete as an 11 year old (not 10) this fall in FS. Right? And that means they would have to be doing the most difficult level of the FS routines? Same as a 13 year old?

Sorry you kind of lost me with the whole min age and max age thing. Whatever age child is considered for FS this fall (2016) is the same age they are considered for the 2016-17 regular season - correct?

 

[profmom]

If your child turns 11 next May, yes, he will compete as an 11 year old for FS. He will do the tech sequence routines for 11-14 year olds for the events, and the flex and pbar strength routines are the same for the older guys. The tramp routine is a bit easier for the 11 year olds than for the older guys.

My son did FS as an 11 year old last fall coming off of competing L6. He made it to FS regionals, but had a very rough time there and did not make it to nationals. Level doesn't necessarily determine anything, but to be successful in that 11 year old age division of FS for next fall's competitions, based on how our year went last year, I'd say that right now your son should have 1) strong skills on floor, with a solid Arabian, 2) very close to having the pommel routine but at a minimum have good circling skills on the pommel-less horse with absolutely no piking, 3) very strong ring swings and inlocates/dislocates at ring height (they will need to be higher by fall), 4) his giant and peach on pbars (and the giant should be approaching if not at HS catch), 5) be very close to or have the half pirouette and the blind change on high bar and have good giants going both directions. My son got KILLED for his sloppy floor and he had a total meltdown on his high bar routine at regionals due to having only gotten an inconsistent blind change about a month before. He's hoping things will go better for him this year, but I'd say nationals is very much a long shot for him, as he competes as a 13 year old and still has a lot of improving to do. However, I will tell you what his coach told him -- go ahead and work on it, because the worst thing that will happen is that he'll get better as a gymnast.

From what I've heard, they did dial down the difficulty in the routines for the younger guys, but not the techs. I think there were a few minor changes in the techs for the older guys (15-18), but I don't know the details.

Edited to add: I don't want to worry or discourage anyone, but please recognize that pommel skills can be very vulnerable to growth, especially when the whole pommel routine is varieties of circles and travels on the pommel-less horse. It certainly doesn't happen to everyone, but for the guys on DS's team (including DS), skills were coming and going like crazy. What they have now may not be what they have in six months. The one thing to keep in mind is whatever they have and lose, they will get back eventually. DS was a great pommel worker as a compulsory and in May 2015 was planning a L8 pommel routine with travels both ways. He grew and everything went to you-know-where in a handbasket -- by FS regionals he was lucky to hit 1/4 of his pommel routines. A one-fall routine was a rare personal victory during the entire meet season, and he had a miserable year on horse at L8. However! At his recent FS clinic, he made three routines pretty easily during one of his rotations, and a few nights ago picked up his Moore on the handles. Patience, encouragement, patience, and more patience.

 

[Sasha]

Sorry you kind of lost me with the whole min age and max age thing.

Sorry about the confusion. Profmom is correct that your son will compete FS this fall as an 11 year old, even though he turns 11 in May (so his actual age will be 10 during FS).

All I was trying to say was the model is now the Max Age model, i.e., "Age 11" means an athlete's Maximum age is 11, but nearly all will still be 10 at some point during the season (season being Future starting sometime in September through nationals ending sometime in May).

The old model was "Minimum Age", meaning an athlete's Minimum age at the start of the (September) season was 11, but 75% (everyone except late May, June, July, August birthdays) were actually older (already turned 12) at some point in the season in the "Age 11" category.

Does that help at all or did I make it worse?

 

[Simaril]

I was at the meeting in Michigan after nationals. The FS and tech sequences were included in the materials...

As a coach, it's tough to put a lot of time and effort into a program that might be changing??? And as a former gymnast I can point to more than a few dead end progressions I wish I didn't waste my time on. One specific example; the floor tech sequence includes an Arabian. The Arabian element group no longer exists in FIG, but the skill and technique are still valid and useful... So it's not a bad skill to learn, but if a kid doesn't pick it up quickly, it might not be worth teaching. It seems like USAG should make these routines more in-line with progressions for the end of the next quadrennium, not a skill that was important in the previous one? Do they really think the Arabian is important, or did they leave it in because FIG hadn't eliminated the element group???

I don't know.


For me the bottom line is this: If you're ready for the age appropriate level, then you can work on FS routines, and tech sequences. Otherwise, FS and tech sequences are just part of normal training, but not something we prepare as routines or compete.

 

[Madden3]

One last question- I thought FS cut off was 13. It is 14? Is this a change or was it always 14?

And thank you all for the information and clarification. Just to be clear myself, my son is not training nor competing FS. From what you are saying, and what I suspected, he is not at the ability level needed to compete as a FS 11 year old, as he competed Level 6 last season and will again this coming season after a not so stellar season. Last summer he was "almost there" for FS according to HC, but of course then he would have competed as a 9 year old.

I was mostly trying to figure out why he was passed over for training FS this summer by HC when same level and ability kids were asked to train FS. (This year, for the first time, FS is being trained at separate additional practices.) It almost surely all comes down to his late May B-day, making him officially 11 when his peers are officially 10 - as I assumed. I was just checking.

Age date change. the gift that keeps on giving.

 

[Sasha]

One last question- I thought FS cut off was 13. It is 14? Is this a change or was it always 14?

And thank you all for the information and clarification. Just to be clear myself, my son is not training nor competing FS. From what you are saying, and what I suspected, he is not at the ability level needed to compete as a FS 11 year old, as he competed Level 6 last season and will again this coming season after a not so stellar season. Last summer he was "almost there" for FS according to HC, but of course then he would have competed as a 9 year old.

I was mostly trying to figure out why he was passed over for training FS this summer by HC when same level and ability kids were asked to train FS. (This year, for the first time, FS is being trained at separate additional practices.) It almost surely all comes down to his late May B-day, making him officially 11 when his peers are officially 10 - as I assumed. I was just checking.

Age date change. the gift that keeps on giving.

I don't know if there was any change, but previously it was Age 13 max for FS, but remember that the Tech Sequences are performed by all Elite competitors up to age 18, so that is what continues on.

 

[Madden3]

Oh ok.

 

[profmom]

Max age is still 13 for FS.