MAG Leg strength, or something else?

[Deleted member 10727]

As I have posted before, DS9 (almost DS10) has had a back tumbling "mental block" for a couple of years now. I, and his coaches, have tried everything we know to help him, but there has been almost no improvement from what I can tell from DS and how he looks when he comes home from gym. I am getting very concerned about his mental state. Friday night, he came home super upset looking, but didn't want to talk about it, and he was tearing up. They also have floor on Fridays. Later that night, I mentioned something about the future and he got a strange look on his face. I said, "Only if you still want to do Gymnastics then. You don't have to..." He said, "OK."

What...??? He has never responded that way before. He has always been super focused, never going to stop, Gymnastics is his life, in his responses. I left it alone, but again asked if everything is OK, and how he could talk to me and I would keep it private. He still wouldn't open up, so I let it drop. He has said nothing since, and he said he had a good practice on Saturday.

I feel like he is giving up on himself, but I also know (now) not to interfere, unless he asks me to..

To the topic of this thread. He has been DXed with hyper flexible ankle joints and the beginning of Sever's. For the ankles, we found the X Brace along with tumbling shoes seems to help. Although the sewn in pads on the heel part of the shoes ripped out within a couple of weeks, so I have to address that. Sooner rather than later.

As a part of my own training, I have been working the old squats. Sometimes the boys work with me, by their choice. I was observing DS9 doing squats. He cannot do them! His legs bow outward, very awkwardly, and his knees go over his toes. I told him to lean back as if sitting in a chair. He did, but couldn't hold himself upright. It's as if he has very little leg strength, and his lower body is all awkward. It was strange to witness in my usually very athletic, picks things up right away, boy.
By contrast, DS8 had no problem doing any of the leg exercises, and he had no awkwardness in his legs. He is also not very flexible, where DS9 is extremely flexible (except he has to really work his hamstrings).
When I talked to his coach in the past about leg strength, he always said that they don't want bulky legs, so they won't be doing any leg strengthening exercises.

Any insight?

 

[skschlag]

So my thought is that there are leg strengthening exercises, and then there are exercises to give him the strength he needs to do tumbling. Those are 2 different things. It sounds like some strengthening would be good, although you would have to be very careful with it as he may not do the exercises correctly due to his flexibility. I would also think things like running, bike riding, etc would help.

Beware of tight hamstrings. sigh. We have learned this the hard way.

 

[Deleted member 10727]

Yesterday we were doing yard work, and he was picking up leaves. I noticed he bends at the waist with perfectly straight legs. No squating at all, no using his knees. That is the exact position he lands in off a round-off, and it's impossible to BHS out of that.

What happened with tight hamstrings? I have stayed away from every bit of gym, but I will have him do exercises with me.

 

[skschlag]

Well, tight hamstrings is a sign of the type of stress fracture D might have. With the hamstrings too tight, it causes problems in the back. So that will be something he has to work on in whatever rehab he has

 

[Deleted member 10727]

Oh, I had no idea that could cause that, but it makes sense if we think of the hamstring as a kind of coil, absorbing most of the shock or bend?

I am not so sure he is all that tight. I'll have to look, but the way he was bending over with locked out, straight legs to pick up leaves from the ground leads me to think he is fairly flexible in his hamstrings. Not compared to his shoulders, but not bad.

So, is it alright to help him, or would it be CGM? I am struggling with the balance, and the gym has confused him thoroughly about NOT talking to mom about gym specifics. (That bothers me.)

 

[txgymfan]

You are mom. He should talk to you as much as he wants. At this point working out with you may help and will be a common project and it may help his gym. Go for it!

 

[Deleted member 10727]

I could use the motivation anyway.

What exercises are recommended to develop muscles for tumbling (and I guess vault)?

I did put him in front of a full length mirror, had him fingertip hold onto the counter, and asked him to squat. Then look at himself. He was bent maybe 3 inches down. And his toes would come way off the floor.

I demonstrated how I squat down, sitting back, knees not extending past toes, to a 90* angle, hold, and then stand up using glutes and thighs. He tried it and could go down farther than before, but when he tried to come back up he lost balance right away, so never got the glute/thigh effect.
I have been wondering about midline, too. So I have to do some reading on that.

 

[Deleted member 10727]

This article looks good. Maybe I should have him squat like kids do on the playground. Butt all the way to the ground practically.
http://tumblingcoach.com/blog/one-exercise/

 

[Sasha]

This article looks good. Maybe I should have him squat like kids do on the playground. Butt all the way to the ground practically.
http://tumblingcoach.com/blog/one-exercise/

I don't have any specific advice, but I looked at the blog, and our gymnasts (boys and girls) do those "pistol squats" very regularly. They also do the deep squats and plenty of explosive frog jumps. If your gym doesn't do those, perhaps couldn't hurt.

It seems odd to me that your program doesn't do leg conditioning..? No box jumps or one-legged-jump races across the floor or lunges or...?

 

[gracyomalley]

2 thoughts -

1. He needs to see a PT. No almost 10 year old gymnast should have mechanical issues with a squat, unless either something has been hurt and compensated for, something has been done "incorrectly" so long its in the muscle memory, or there is an underlying issue with balance/strength that is beyond a ROBHS. The ability to properly land a RO and rebound out is basic Level 3/4 stuff...dangerous to move past that without the strength and body alignment to do so - and unusual. Growth spurts can mess with some of the mechanics, but what you seem to be describing would have me concerned in any 10 year old kid, let alone a gymnast.

I've seen many kids hit about 10-12 and it becomes clear that they just aren't built for gymnastics at higher levels - their strength doesn't develop as easily, their balance and center of gravity is not ideal, etc. With fantastic coaching and a great work/team environment some of these kids can slowly learn the next level of skills and still enjoy the sport - but not all coaches can provide that environment or want to (hard to coach really well for these kids and also for the more "ideal" gymnast - and hard to be a "winning" team if lots of energy goes to the kid who needs 3 years at each level to be safe and successful with the next one - most gym coaches are themselves more athletically gifted than that and may not be patient with the kid who is less so but loves gym)

2. If he is having pain/weakness/balance issues that have led to his tumbling problems and its been treated as a fear/work ethic/etc issue, its really important to get to the bottom of it as a mom. Lots of kids live and breath gymnastics (or any other sport, activity) in elementary school and hit road blocks - many will move on to other activities. Very important to support them in that and from previous posts it sounds like he's been through "lots" to "get over this". Its hard to see them try to sort through the "I can't do this" or "I don't really want to make myself do this" or "this is no fun with these kids/coaches/skills anymore" or whatever journey they have to go through, but if there is an underlying physical reason (or vestibular) that they really have no control over then all we do as parents by "leaving gym at gym" is leave them feeling alone. I would hope an honest discussion with his coaches about what you've discovered about strength and balance would lead to suggestions of good PTs to work with.

I have one child who took forever to learn skills at your DS age - but mechanically was always solid on them before moving on - aside from an ache here and there, no injuries or pain until he started working upper level stuff (and is 15 so everything aches). His transition to flipping vaults, double backs, release moves has been as smooth as can be expected for an older middle of the road talent gymnast - no skills have become "fears", no skills have "held him back" other than twisting, which is reportedly often hard for older boys to learn. His ego is not dependent upon his gymnastics either. I also have one who went fast, had back issues with BWO on beam, then shoulder issues with giants, several probable concussions from head bonks on the beam and a pushy team-mate, then double grade 2 ankle sprains when she threw a Level 8 tumbling pass she wasn't strong enough to do anymore because of deconditioning, to try to get back in coach's good graces....luckily no big injuries resulted from her struggles - in retrospect I wish I'd gotten PT involved when she was an 8 year old L6 and been more aware of how my "support" of her gymnastics started to feel when gymnastics no longer felt good emotionally or physically....

Not every good lower level gymnast is built to be a good upper level gymnast - either physically, or sometimes just emotionally. If its physical and can be retrained so that the sport is fun and painfree again - great, if its physical and can't, well, time to find what your body is made for. If its emotional, no amount of us wanting them to "be tough, not give up, not let the others get you down, not let what happens with certain coaches get you down, etc" will make a pre-adolescent feel good about themselves if they just aren't "there". In the cases of either physical or emotional mis-match we just set them up to go in there every practice feeling like failures and knowing we want them to "be" something they can't.

Hopefully your DS was just having a bad day...but I would think hard about what he may be trying to tell you.

 

[Deleted member 10727]

Gracyomalley, I do believe it developed due to muscle memory when he had a 4 inch - all in the legs - growth spurt in 9 months during level 5. Then add to that the instability in the ankles, and the anguish and anxiety over not being able to do the skill, and it became a mess. He never fully got the conditioning he needed after that growth spurt since we had to suddenly move gyms in the middle of the season to a gym without a program.

The current gym is a good program, but it is not very individualized. His coach has become very fond of G and he does set some drills up for him. He said he can do the ROBHS if he is out on the floor, but balks the moment he leaves. He also said that G has a nice full, so it's just this one thing he needs to get over. I like how he makes it sound like a small thing now. It is helping. Both the coach and I are like, "G, go out and aim for a 6 or 7 on floor, but have fun doing it!"

The doctors we saw would not refer G for PT.
Neither one has experience with gymnasts, and I can't seem to find one with that quality. It's pretty much me or no one.

As far as him being made to be a gymnast or whatever, I have had several people wonder that same thing. Never his coaches, but other parents. I don't know if he is or he isn't. To me that doesn't matter, because he works hard at it and loves it. Plus my gut says he is made for this sport.

I was the same way as a kid and spent a couple of years balking at diving (comp swimmer) around the same age. No one ever mentioned I may not be made to be a comp swimmer, thankfully, because I am definitely a born swimmer. It just took time and maturity to force myself past the fear, and then it became a fun skill with many variations.

In the two days he has done squats, he has improved his balance and form, and has little trouble with doing them now. He even said they made him sore.