Perfection before Progression

[MdGymMom01]

With the recent news of USAG and Acrobatics and Tumbling (for college cheer) I really like the message in this video that stresses "Perfection before Progression" with skills. I think this can clearly be carried over to gymnastics as well. There is nothing worse than seeing kids do advanced skills whether in cheerleading or gymnastics that have weak form in the basics. Sometimes you really do have to take 2 steps back (to clean up form) before taking two steps forward.

YouTube - Top Gun, Shawn Johnson, GK Elite Safety Video.mp4

PS--I am having trouble embedding this so if any admins could help out I would appreciate it!!!

Thanks

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

Oh Kathy I so agree with you. I LOVE to watch the competitive cheerleading teams, but their form on their tumbling has, for the most part, left LOTS to be desired, but the teamwork, synchronized tumbling, etc, is really cool!!! Then there's gymnastics . . .

NOTHING looks worse than a Level 8 (very rarely 9 or 10 b/c they've been weeded out by then) who has sloppy, sloppy form!!! I didn't include L7 ONLY because at that level I guess you kind of expect some form issues since it's the first year of optionals? At any rate, there are just some gyms that really really focus on that all important form. There's a gym nearby that focuses on form so much so, that they're girls go into the competition season and they're all pretty much scoring 35, 36 and 37's from the start. (Of course it doesn't hurt that they routinely have elites attending the major competitions... BUT they train all their girls to that same, exact standard).

Then there are the gyms where the girls just "chuck" the skills... w/o any consideration to developing the proper form. I feel really bad for these girls when they go to their meets and they're scoring very low. You think someone would take a step back and say, "whoa, maybe we need to slow down and work on the basics?" But it will never happen... you know why??? Because they want to be able to say "Sally competes at Level X." BUT good form = safer gymnastics!

Whatever . . .

 

[gymnut1]

Good form also makes for more beautiful gymnastics! I'm a sucker for gorgeous form. I'm happy to watch a kid cartwheel all day if it is perfect.

Of course form may take a small hit while learning a new skill (if good form is not natural to that child) but it should only be slight.

Shapes and basics. Strong foundations. If you want to chuck skills go freerunning.

 

[bogwoppit]

I drool over teamsparkles videos on youtube for this one reason, they are strong, highly skilled and advanced, but the form is just TO DIE FOR. Lovely shapes, tight body and great toe point, those girls seem to have no knees at all.

BIg skills with ugly form are one thing in the gym, but at a meet, EEK!

 

[gymnut1]

To do for? really bog?

I love Team sparkle too - I think they sit on their knees ;0 to get rid of them.

 

[MdGymMom01]

I drool over teamsparkles videos on youtube for this one reason, they are strong, highly skilled and advanced, but the form is just TO DO FOR. Lovely shapes, tight body and great toe point, those girls seem to have no knees at all.

BIg skills with ugly form are one thing in the gym, but at a meet, EEK!

I LOVE Teamsparkle!!! OMG--these kids are amazing!!!! They have impeccable form for being so young--some as young as 7 and 8!!! But you would never guess it because their form is perfect--not a bend leg or flexxed foot in sight!!! I'm going to check out their youtube page now--I need a Teamsparkle fix!!!!

 

[gymjourneymom]

Thanks for the informative Shawn Johnson link MGM!

 

[gymdog]

To be fair there are some differences between cheer and gymnastics. I object to anything that is unsafe - either in the moment or in terms of overuse. But I'm not sure at this point cheer needs the same technique standards as gymnastics. First of all we need to the train the power and set for double saltos, in the end. Usually we are aiming for more twisting too, and better direct connections (punching saltos) and more direct front tumbling and front twisting.

Also, this is hard for people used to gymnastics judging to understand. In gymnastics it's one kid going and they are taking deductions for every mistake. That's just how it works. In cheer it's more of an "overall" thing almost. You don't want people falling or bumping into each other, but that still goes into the overall dynamics and performance. So do they really need to be concerned about the slightest form break? Probably not. However the best teams do usually have pretty good form, because if everyone is sloppy, that usually carries through everything (jumps, motions, dance) and the whole performance is not good. The best teams have some very good tumbling, and many girls who did gymnastics or gymnastics-like progressions. I remember watching a video of Woodlands (WGA) level 5 cheer and some of the girls had beautiful double fulls. I don't know if they learned it in gymnastics or what, but there was no tumbling without at least adequate form in that routine.

It's many of the "wannabes" that are trying to chuck kids into sloppy tumbling and sloppy stunts in order to work their way up. Unfortunately the lack of national organizing body and standardized progressions has hurt the development of cheer thus far, I think, because it impedes the flow of information from the best clubs to the other clubs. There are a lot of good coaches in cheer. It's amazing the kind of work some of them can get from the kids in the time frame they're working with them.

 

[lilgymmie7]

This thread has really helped me to put a letter from DD's gym into perspective. As usual, parents were wondering if their DD was going to move up at the end of summer. My DD is only 6, so I didn't wonder. She has to compete level 5 after her birthday in January. She is still so young! However the older level 5/6 parents were getting frantic.
A week ago, the coaches gave us a note stating that none of the team girls would move up and it is due to going back to the basics. They want to take the time to perfect the skills and especially perfect the form. I wondered last year when this would happen. I witnessed some of DD's teammates with poor form on both the dance elements and skills. My older DD had impeccable form: she looked like a ballerina on floor! I worried myself after this note, but now I realize it is for the best for my little DD.
Each practice, they stress the correct dance form. My little DD is looking sooo good. She also has the high level skills, but now she will couple it with great form and she should do well at meets. I will think she looks awesome anyways! Her gym is known for producing elites and college scholarship receipiants, so I guess I shouldn't worry about anything!

 

[Tumblequeensmom]

GymDog... thanks for clarifying... since DD never did cheer, but many of her friends do, I never understood the difference in philosophy!!! I really DO like to watch the teams compete, and now I can begin to understand a bit better what they're looking for!!!

Lilgymmie7, I'm glad your gym has decided to hold the girls back one year to work on form... I really think you and your little gymmie will see a BIG difference... and she's still so little... she'll get more competition experience, have another year to mature, and you'll be amazed at the difference in her gymnastics!!! Good luck and let us know how everything goes!

 

[coachmolly]

I sometimes step in to help with the TNT classes at my gym and it is always an experience. A few days ago I worked with a group of level 4 TNT kids who were working on backhandsprings but many could not do a backward roll, or even a proper forward roll. I just chalked it up to the differences in focus and taught what I was supposed to but I just cringed teaching bhs to kids with so little awareness of form and body shapes. However, by the time these kids start competing in level 5/6, they are placing pretty well at the state level and injuries are really not a problem, so I guess it really just is different priorities.
I don't know a whole lot about competitive cheer, but I can only assume it's somewhat similar to the TNT program mentioned above. Just learn the skills as quickly as possible and worry about form later.

 

[mariposa]

I am happy to see this video. Hope cheer programs will take it to heart and start doing progressions more safely. I have seen some scary stuff from the team that practices out of DDs gym, very scary. I don't even think I see progressions, just throwing skills in the air. The rare times that I am at the gym and they are there, I just don't watch. Too many heart attach moments.

I think that many gyms could take this to heart, too. I know that at my DDs old gym, she was throwing things WAY before she should have been. At the time, I thought it was cute, but now I realize that it was unsafe and really unnecessary. At her gym now, she will definitely progress more slowly through the levels than she would have at her old gym, but I know she is safely progressing and not just throwing tricks. It took her a long time to fix her BHS and she still goes back to her old way of doing them sometimes. BUT, when she came home saying she did her ROBHS-BT on the floor by herself last week, I know that she did it safely and it probably looked pretty good, too! I will take form over skill any day.

It is easy to get caught up in the "my X year old can do X skill", especially if you ever watch YouTube. There are some amazingly talented little kids out there. And there are some that are throwing tricks they shouldn't be. What is the point of throwing a skill if the form is so horrible. I have seen lots of fearless kids that can throw skills (on YouTube and at the gym), but the young gymmies that I truly think are amazing are the ones that do things with beautiful form, now THAT is impressive. (Yes, Team Sparkle, wow!!! And there are a few on YouTube that are just stunning to watch)

 

[CreateMagic]

To be fair there are some differences between cheer and gymnastics. I object to anything that is unsafe - either in the moment or in terms of overuse. But I'm not sure at this point cheer needs the same technique standards as gymnastics. First of all we need to the train the power and set for double saltos, in the end. Usually we are aiming for more twisting too, and better direct connections (punching saltos) and more direct front tumbling and front twisting.

Also, this is hard for people used to gymnastics judging to understand. In gymnastics it's one kid going and they are taking deductions for every mistake. That's just how it works. In cheer it's more of an "overall" thing almost. You don't want people falling or bumping into each other, but that still goes into the overall dynamics and performance. So do they really need to be concerned about the slightest form break? Probably not. However the best teams do usually have pretty good form, because if everyone is sloppy, that usually carries through everything (jumps, motions, dance) and the whole performance is not good. The best teams have some very good tumbling, and many girls who did gymnastics or gymnastics-like progressions. I remember watching a video of Woodlands (WGA) level 5 cheer and some of the girls had beautiful double fulls. I don't know if they learned it in gymnastics or what, but there was no tumbling without at least adequate form in that routine.

It's many of the "wannabes" that are trying to chuck kids into sloppy tumbling and sloppy stunts in order to work their way up. Unfortunately the lack of national organizing body and standardized progressions has hurt the development of cheer thus far, I think, because it impedes the flow of information from the best clubs to the other clubs. There are a lot of good coaches in cheer. It's amazing the kind of work some of them can get from the kids in the time frame they're working with them.

This is what I wanted to say, but you said it so much better than I would've! It is hard to explain to those familiar with gymnastics the difference in cheer tumbling philosophy. Cheer is much more about power from the get-go. In gymnastics, you all know that you compete a robhs at level 4, but not a standing until level 6, then its progressed to a beam at 7. Now for those of you not familiar with cheer: In cheer, both standing and robhs start at level 2 (of 5, and I'm talking allstar cheer), standing series bhs and robhs tucks are level 3; standing tucks, jump to tuck, and robhs layouts at level 4; and at level 5 kids are throwing double fulls and standing fulls.

When I coach cheer, yes, I focus on good form, shaping and basics, but I know that there's a different end goal in mind. I don't need that kid to perform it on a balance beam. Instead, that kid needs to learn how to use the bhs for power and speed, and learn how to synchronize his/her tumbling with other teammates.

 

[gymdog]

Another good point though, that we need to teach these things for beam also. We are just looking for more refinement of technique. I wouldn't say that cheer is "easier" necessarily. In terms of gymnastics, I'm very physically capable with tumbling stuff. But I know a bunch of cheerleaders who can do standing fulls - I know very few people in gymnastics that can do a standing full. Stunting also is a lot harder than it looks and many of the best stunters have great technique as athletes (many of them were gymnasts themselves).

The bottom line to me is that cheer CAN be very difficult and technique oriented, but again due to lack of overall organization and such, it has been crossover between gymnastics and cheer that's often been the most successful. Yes, we can point to athletes like Kiara Nowlin but she was doing gymnastics from a young age and now is one of the most successful power tumblers of her age group. Cheer can build these programs and world class athletes but they need to push it to the next level. And many of the girls who just did cheerleading and manage to get a decent full? HUGE accomplishment. That would be a huge accomplishment in gymnastics, for girls who are going less than half the hours a week probably and maybe not year round, we need to understand this is HUGE.