WAG Question regarding form vs very fast skill progression

[Amber]

My youngest DD, 8, was placed on TOPs this last fall. This is a new program at our gym, and we were told up front, that it is mainly for the benefit of extra training, and not to expect anyone going to any National Camps, etc. That is is an experiment. My DD, and 2 other girls, just finished old Level 4. Several times a week for the last season, these girls are pulled out with about 6 higher level young girls (level 5-7), and work on TOPs skills and abilities. My DD can do skills consistently that I think are higher level skills : old level 6 bars (kip, clear hip, fly away?), back handspring, front/back walkover on beam with back tuck dismount, FHS/FT, RO BHS BHS BT, layout on floor, etc.
My question is this: while she consistently does these skills, her and the other 2 level 4's form is pretty poor. Bent legs mostly on things like beam skills (handsprings), press handstands, layouts. They don't have bent legs in any Level 4 skills..these girls all finished a great season...all were on the podium a lot. I asked a coach in the lobby and she said, the bent legs was due to the very fast skill progression, and once all girls were consistent, they would work on polishing. BUT, because my DD has been doing the poor form for months with no corrections, is she just forming bad habits? I stay out of it, and trust the coaches, but it would be ironic if she developed bad habits and her non TOPs, old Level 4 teammates wind up better gymnasts b/c of the slow progression with corrections along the way. What is your opinion?
I know now why optional parents don't watch...they are starting to learn giants, and I high- tail it out of there in fear!

 

[wallflower]

I have a DD who moved from level 4 to competing level 7 in about a years time. I haven't seen what you are talking about. They insist on good form no matter what the girls are doing. Form is not something that comes naturally to her either. The coaches are big on correct shapes and tightness and they harp on it constantly. A bent arm, leg separation, etc still creeps in of course from time to time. I've definitely seen gyms that seem to just allow girls to do the skills no matter what they look like. Some of them will clean up eventually and others will not. I prefer trying to do it correct from the beginning.

I could be wrong about this, but one thing I've noticed is that girls who aren't strong enough to hold their shapes will often look the sloppiest. Lots of conditioning is what DD's gym does. It can be tedious, but it makes the skills easier if they are strong enough to hold the shapes on bars from the beginning of learning a skill.

 

[GymBeeMom]

My DD also does TOPS and form is first and foremost. No matter what level skill they do, they must do it with good form.
Form and conditioning are top priority for elite track training (from what I have seen). Our coaches polish as they go and the girls don't move on until its polished. I will say our TOPs girls polish pretty quickly and the skills come easier than when they were younger..I believe that's the product of all the conditioning.

 

[Amber]

I have a DD who moved from level 4 to competing level 7 in about a years time. I haven't seen what you are talking about. They insist on good form no matter what the girls are doing. Form is not something that comes naturally to her either. The coaches are big on correct shapes and tightness and they harp on it constantly. A bent arm, leg separation, etc still creeps in of course from time to time. I've definitely seen gyms that seem to just allow girls to do the skills no matter what they look like. Some of them will clean up eventually and others will not. I prefer trying to do it correct from the beginning.

I could be wrong about this, but one thing I've noticed is that girls who aren't strong enough to hold their shapes will often look the sloppiest. Lots of conditioning is what DD's gym does. It can be tedious, but it makes the skills easier if they are strong enough to hold the shapes on bars from the beginning of learning a skill.

That's what I have been worried about...the coaches constantly harp on form for the level skills, but I see no corrections for TOPs practice...I will talk to the HC when everything settles down (now is level move-ups etc). I don't think strength is the issue...that is her forte and they do conditioning every gym session, but if she can be lazy and throw it sloppy, she will! To me, the lack of correction is counterproductive for a TOPs program...

 

[HoldThePhone]

Isn't the whole purpose of TOPs to work on strength and conditions WITH proper form? It does strike me as odd that they say they'll come back to it later. The TOPs girls at our gym are very form oriented, and the coaches are constantly adjusting and correcting the girls when they see form breaks.

 

[Gymmom495]

I agree with GymBeeMom, however in your gyms situation this may not be the case since I think you stated your coaches said it was an experimental program.
In my opinion if they are going to implement something so rigorous and elite as TOPS training then they should do it properly and make the proper corrections or don't do it at all. I'm going to quote one of my favorite people who post on the CB (or rather paraphrase it) she can train hours and hours acquiring skill after skill but if she's learning bad habits or doing the skill wrong its wasted time and energy, she will eventually have to go back to correct every little thing that is wrong with each skill. It won't matter that she can do a BWO BHS connection on beam if her legs are bent or it's taught incorrectly the skill really won't matter when it comes down to competing it.
It was funny my daughter could do all of these big skills really early on (super young) before she ever needed to compete them, but her coaches would tell her that what she was doing was "monkey gymnastics", they said its great to be able to do big skills but you must be able to show grace and beauty with straight legs, pointed toes, proper placement of hands and arms. Those things are just as important as the skill itself. Thankfully she corrected it but I'm glad she had a coach who called her out on it.
On a positive note.. You should be proud that your daughter is able to do those skills at that age, maybe talk to the gym owners about possibly making the TOPS program a permanent thing and training the girls to actually test for it, sounds like your daughter has some talent

 

[Amber]

Thanks Gymmom! She is definitely a kid who can turn form on and off, and will choose off if no one is correcting her. Just like when they are messing around in the yard, vs being in a competition. Her last 2 years in competition have shown great form, dance, and strength. I am assuming that's why they picked her for TOPs. I am just so disappointed to see the lack of correction, when she can do it correctly, if she's reminded. I will talk to the HC, and maybe this coming year, they will be stricter with form. I may have to watch the practices to be a reminder to the coaches

 

[gymdog]

It might work itself out, but if you have other options in the area you might want to check them out. Your coach's approach to the TOPs/accelerated program seems a bit clueless.

 

[iwannacoach]

I consider the coach's position to be based upon........ well, I'll let you finish that thought.

Precise and consistent positions (shapes) and predictable weight distribution (form/straight arms) are "right up there" with strength, natural ability, and attitude when considering the ingredients that go into baking a gymnast to golden perfection. Lacking any of these elements will prolong or completely halt the learning process beyond the simple skills commonly seen at L7 and L8.

That being said, there needs to be some allowance for what kids are and why, at that moment in time, they come to the gym. I know the most expedient path to the upper levels is one that adheres to the emphasis of consistent and proper shapes and form, but is it practical to expect kids to energetically follow us down that path. Maybe for some, but likely not for most, because their first and lasting impression is that gymnastics is fun, flippy, twisty, and flightish..... if you know what I mean.

Possibly one of the hardest things about coaching is to balance, for each individual child, the drudgery of shape, strength, and form work with the fun stuff like new skills. It could be the coaches in your child's program are trying to do just that. Would it be better to have each skill done with impeccable form and correct body positions... you betcha, but what good is a strict adherence to these principles if the kid gets bored and switches to another activity, like cheer, or soccer.

I think the best observation can be made by looking at any of the L8 - L10 kids. If they are working with good form, it would seem likely the coaches have struck that balance. If, on the other hand, you see poor form and inconsistent attempts on "the same old skills" they've done for the past year, well..... I'll let you finish that thought as well.

 

[Amber]

Thanks for the insight, IWC. Our optionals have good form. Even the higher level girls on TOPs have good form. Just the 3 Level 4s doing the extra TOPs practice have issues with form. Not on everything though...just some of the new higher end things...for example, these girls can do BHS on the floor with straight legs...transfer the BHS to beam, and now legs are slightly bent. But I never see a coach correct them. So now, some skills are great, and some, sloppy. For example, press handstands...coaches seem to prefer more PHS done with bent legs than 1 or 2 done perfectly. This occurs only with the TOPs practice. The "level" practices are chock full of constant correction..which is why the Level 5-7s in TOPs look great..they are repeating skills they perfected in their "level" practice. These Level 4 girls will not test for TOPs, or skip levels from what I have gathered...so I guess they will be doing this hardcore up training (level 6-8) for years? I don't know the rhyme or reason for the lack of correction....or the final goal of this....we just write the checks and make sure the girls are happy!

 

[iwannacoach]

You probably don't have anything to worry about with the exception of...... Now where did I leave that danged checkbook!!!

 

[gymdog]

Thanks for the insight, IWC. Our optionals have good form. Even the higher level girls on TOPs have good form. Just the 3 Level 4s doing the extra TOPs practice have issues with form. Not on everything though...just some of the new higher end things...for example, these girls can do BHS on the floor with straight legs...transfer the BHS to beam, and now legs are slightly bent. But I never see a coach correct them. So now, some skills are great, and some, sloppy. For example, press handstands...coaches seem to prefer more PHS done with bent legs than 1 or 2 done perfectly. This occurs only with the TOPs practice. The "level" practices are chock full of constant correction..which is why the Level 5-7s in TOPs look great..they are repeating skills they perfected in their "level" practice. These Level 4 girls will not test for TOPs, or skip levels from what I have gathered...so I guess they will be doing this hardcore up training (level 6-8) for years? I don't know the rhyme or reason for the lack of correction....or the final goal of this....we just write the checks and make sure the girls are happy!

Well, this seems completely different then. I would assume they are working through a process and it will be fine.

 

[SignHere]

Maybe they are hoping to go to testing (next) year, In a year or so? From what you describe, your DD is working the State skills testing and starting to work the National Skills testing for a TOPs 8 year old. Of course, she would score higher if she did them with perfect form, but first, they have to get the skill .

Also, with my 9 year old, the "reward" after all the strength training of her TOPs practice is jumping on the trampoline or into the pit. However , I think they did offer to put the safety belt on her and fly her up and down in the gym once she got her late drop to toe loop!

So maybe the up training fun time is the reward for the hard work!