Toe-on clarification

[Geoffrey Taucer]

On girls' bars, under what circumstances is a gymnast permitted to split the legs when performing a skill starting from a toe-on? Is it permitted for all flight skills? (I would assume so, since I see this done so frequently). Is it permitted for a simple toe-on to handstand?

 

[gymdog]

Just to clarify, do you mean a one foot step down in general, or splitting the legs still in the handstand? The one foot technique is acceptable for pretty much all the skills I can think of (toe to HS, toe hecht low to high, shaposh, toe on tkatchev). However if it's the second issue, I have seen it done in a way that would probably get a deduction for interrupting the flow of the routine.

For a toe on to handstand, I would say it is more common than not to use the one foot technique. (probably because it is easier for most to achieve the correct timing using this technique).

 

[gymcoach34]

I have heard that judges (and high rated ones) take this step down technique as a leg seperation deduction. Therefore, I use either a pike, or a straddle if they dont have the flex.

 

[gymnut1]

I have heard that judges (and high rated ones) take this step down technique as a leg seperation deduction. Therefore, I use either a pike, or a straddle if they dont have the flex.

Ive heard that FIG judges can't penalise for it but would love to

 

[gymdog]

I have heard that judges (and high rated ones) take this step down technique as a leg seperation deduction. Therefore, I use either a pike, or a straddle if they dont have the flex.

Really? I can definitely think of instances where it would get a deduction (girls balancing in handstand in full split before stepping down). My pet peeve is the toe front dismount - splitting almost before achieving handstand in the giant - don't do that. But in my region it would be rare at this point to see anything from a toe on that doesn't come from a step down release (in JO). From my point of view it would probably be worth it for some girls to take the deduction for the power achieved in the skill following it. I know for me it's almost impossible to do a good toe hecht from anything other than a step down. I mean I guess it matters if we're talking a deduction like .05 or .2...but I've seen routines score in the mid 9s and win states, etc in my region using this technique for multiple skills.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I have one girl training a toe shoot to high bar who has the flexibility to do it with legs together -- but only just. It's a struggle for her and she generally inters a little too early and sometimes slightly bends her knees.

With such a kid, would you focus on cleaning up the pike, or switch to a step-down entry?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Really? I can definitely think of instances where it would get a deduction (girls balancing in handstand in full split before stepping down). My pet peeve is the toe front dismount - splitting almost before achieving handstand in the giant - don't do that. But in my region it would be rare at this point to see anything from a toe on that doesn't come from a step down release (in JO). From my point of view it would probably be worth it for some girls to take the deduction for the power achieved in the skill following it. I know for me it's almost impossible to do a good toe hecht from anything other than a step down. I mean I guess it matters if we're talking a deduction like .05 or .2...but I've seen routines score in the mid 9s and win states, etc in my region using this technique for multiple skills.

no, there is no deduction for that at the elite level.

 

[gymdog]

no, there is no deduction for that at the elite level.

What about in JO?

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

no, there is no deduction for that at the elite level.

Just checked and there is a deduction.

Uncharacteristic Movement .3 (e.g. legs split before arrival in handstand).

 

[gymdog]

Just checked and there is a deduction.

Uncharacteristic Movement .3 (e.g. legs split before arrival in handstand).

This is where I think we need clarification because I can easily see a judge saying they take a leg separation deduction when this technique is used incorrectly. And I would support that. If the legs split prior to arriving in handstand (either from close bar circle, giant circle, or cast handstand) it does not look good and impedes the flow of the routine. We don't have any skill or technique such as a split handstand giant. If nothing else you could expect rhythm deductions or deduction for lack of amplitude, especially since splitting prior to handstand rather than waiting through a drop phase tends to lend itself to an early toe on).

But if it is truly being performed (and I have seen it like this) as a giant ending in a split handstand, into a step down, then I can see how a judge would say okay she did a giant with her legs apart prior to doing a toe front = leg separation deduction. But that's different than arriving at the handstand with the legs together, going through a drop phase, then doing a late toe one that uses the one foot step down technique. To me taking a deduction for leg separation in that case would be like taking a deduction for leg separation because they did a straddled toe on - that's silly. Probably the same thing would apply if they did giant circle to a straddle handstand then proceeded into the toe-on. It's not quite the same as a giant, drop phase, late straddle on.

 

[gymcoach34]

yes, the deduction I was referring to was the cast to the leg slpit in the hs-then the toe on..... I know the late split toe on is an acceptable technique.....I just wonder if the judges deduct for it no matter what?????????? There is a team in my state that has very high leevl gymnasts and they all do a cast-big split in the hs, then toe on... I dont even think the coaches know its a deduction.....or maybe they do....

I teach my kids either a late pike or straddle after the snap- bc I think it works better, but also so they dont get this deducation....

Geoffrey-do they have any optional fall clinics in your region? That would be a great place to get feedback for this question-and Im interested in hearing what u find out. We ahve ours in Oct & I will ask around.....

 

[Deleted member D3987]

What about in JO?

no..................................

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Just checked and there is a deduction.

Uncharacteristic Movement .3 (e.g. legs split before arrival in handstand).

this doesn't apply to the skill that's being discussed.