Coaches Front Tumbling Hurdle Technique

[emacmommy]

Clarification: For Front Salto Tumbling (not fronthandspring)

I'm a bit old school and trying to keep up with the times. So I need some edu-ma-cation, clarification here. Again, couldn't find anything definitive in any previous posts about this so posting a new thread.

I've been to a few recent clinics in Region 3 that are encouraging the arm circle in the hurdle for front punching. I've managed to not get clarification while I was there the purpose of changing to this technique and quite frankly I don't get how it works yet. I understand the arm circle on vault and all it's reasons, but I don't get it for the quick tumbling on floor.

I've always taught the arms up on contact for the punch, with just a simple arm lift (no circle) to get them there, remain up and reaching like you just shot a free throw basket for the lift,so they can "tomahawk chop" to initiate rotation into the tuck, with arms/chest chasing the knees, but obviously never catching up, for the salto.

Maybe I don't get exactly where the whole arm circle for this other technique is to complete. Full, smaller and quicker arm circle in the hurdle to complete the arms at that same over head reach before making contact with the feet for the punch, or like on a vaulting board the arms are more down and behind as the feet hit for the punch?

How exactly is this technique executed and what is it's purpose... ie why are they encouraging this over the over arm punch?

I'm all for change, I just need to know why. Hey, when I first learned a front salto I was taught a Russian-Lift, so that should date me some.

 

[KAQuinlan]

I learned both the Russian lift and the arm punch, for real confusion! I have not heard of the arm circle into front tumbling. It will be interesting to hear what others say. I, and all the other coaches at my gym, still teach the arm punch.

Actually, thinking about it, I did know a coach who taught a backward arm circle into front handsprings, but nothing else. He felt that it kept continuity between the vault and the floor, as well as giving some extra momentum into the skill.

 

[ryantroop]

So... The nitty gritty... Do yourself a favor, stand on a beam facing out (like you did a jump 1/4).

Then lean backwards and let your body do its thing. Repeat going forward.

Which way do your arms swing, and what is the purpose of the swing? Are you speeding up or slowing down? What would happen if your arms swung in the opposite direction?

Yes, I recommend sufficient matting before doing this.

Hope that clarifies.

Ryan

 

[nevertooold]

"How exactly is this technique executed and what is it's purpose... ie why are they encouraging this over the over arm punch?

I'm all for change, I just need to know why. Hey, when I first learned a front salto I was taught a Russian-Lift, so that should date me some"

--Thanks for asking this, I have been thinking about this this summer as well. I was taught the Russian as well as the "basketball toss" technique which is what we teach, firstly b/c it worked and it's what we know, and secondly b/c arms up makes it easy to spot.

I was working a few weeks ago at a camp and the girls all came with some variation of either the "basketball toss" or the vaulting arm circle lift and it was tricky to adapt my spotting to the girls who arm circled (but still needed spotting) as maybe I'm old and slow but it was hard to time getting the first hand in toward the belly without hitting arms with the gymnast.

Teaching our girls to get their arms up makes them easier to spot. (drawing to the other thread about arm circling in the ro bhs rebound, we also teach the arms "tall and tight", ie. no arm circle) Maybe it just habit, or we really have a thing about arms by the ears!

If the arm circle is a better technique does anyone have any tips on spotting it without striking arms with the gymnast??

 

[ryantroop]

In my ubderstanding of the technique, the point that you would normally spot their arms should be out of the way already. If they are having trouble they are probably slow, which is why they aren't lifting.
Its not like vault, all the circling does is force a tight hollow open as they punch and increase hip rotation. If they are hitting with their hands down and trying to flip with their hands rising then their timing is off.

I tend to watch the gymnasts hips or stomach as they approach, and when their hands/ arms pass my field of vision I reach in. There is plenty of time. Ideally, they should learn on a tumble track anyway, and not need a hans spot. Otherwise, a spring board and porta pit work just as well.

 

[BlairBob]

Good for down the road when they may run, hurdle, front whip or front full, etc and connect more front salto-twisting or 1/2 to back tumbling-saltos.

 

[emacmommy]

Good for down the road when they may run, hurdle, front whip or front full, etc and connect more front salto-twisting or 1/2 to back tumbling-saltos.

Well I figured that, but why any better than the over arm punch. When I teach front layouts I teach tall arms on the punch and "open the curtain" technique as you start heel drive and layout rotation. This also allows the arms to carry through to a twisting technique for eventual twisting.

It just seems like for beginner say, Level 4 & 5, front tumbling while their arms aren't very coordinated yet, teaching the quick arm circle is going to be confusing, since the arms are technically moving in a backwards fashion and then need to sharply move to a tomahawk chop front direction. That is difficult, in my book, at least while they are tucking and piking and need the "chop" for rotation. For vaulting and layouting all they need is the stretch, rotation mostly happens with a heel drive.

Maybe I'm underestimating the beginning tumblers and once the awkwardness wears off I will just have the one technique to contend with. In the Women's USAG JO program we technically don't need a front until Level 6 anyways. Hopefully by then they will have muddled through the technique until they have it. It doesn't conflict with the vault arm circle that I want so bad, because I do get a lot of little ones that confuse the two hurdles and eventually I have a bad habit to either work around or fix with no arm circle. Maybe that was the driving factor and the why I'm looking for. The over arm technique is a quicker means to an end, but can create a bad habit for vault if we aren't on top of them to not take the easy way out. Like how I bantered that out for everyone.

Anyone got any drills to encourage the quick arm circle finish in front of and stretched up, rather than the vault arm circle that finishes with arms more down and behind?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

hurdling/skipping your feet as you would for a round off, then bringing the feet forward while the arms are up and punching is 1 method.

hurdling/skipping your feet as you would for a round off, then bringing the arms in to a position where the elbows are by the ribs and the hands in front as if setting for a free 'free throw' is a 2nd method.

hurdling/skipping your feet as you would for a round off, and during the hurdle you drive your arms down and behind in a reverse circle, and when you punch you lift your arms up and back, is a 3rd method. this method is called the 'russian' lift.

then you have the 'under arm' swing as you would for vault. this is the 4th method.

they all have advantages and disadvantages that are dependent upon the athlete's foot speed, coordination, slow/fast muscle twitch, and then body type.

neither is method is wrong. you must experiment and see what works best for what you are attempting to accomplish.

usually, the coach is looking for the best method to create rotation and linear force across the floor, as in front step-out to a double back. the most effective method would be the underarm swing.

as far as drills, these 4 methods are coordination driven. the coach will have to precisely explain what they want the athlete's body/arms to do. you will have to show/explain like dance.

anything else i can help? post up and i'll reply.

 

[emacmommy]

I found Tia Orlando 2004 Trials using the arm circle I'm describing. Hers is small and quick, where as during the clinic I attended the younger, more L5 gymnasts obviously weren't able to get the same quick quality. Their's ended up more like a slow arm circle vault hurdle.

YouTube - Tia Orlando - Floor Exercise - 2004 U.S. Gymnastics Championships - Women - Day 2

It's better illustrated on her last tumbling pass of punch double front tuck. You can see it a bit on her 2nd pass too though.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

tia was an exceptional and way above average tumbler. she is very fast twitched which facilitates her hurdle. let me watch what i just have seen you posted...i'll be right back.

this hurdle is more like method 1 & 4 combined. probably found its way to this movement pattern because of trampoline or tumbl trak. this works for HER as she is so fast.

as i posted, no way is wrong. just what works best for the athlete. and they must be instructed as to what method you want. jack carter coached tia's tumbling. i'm certain he taught her precisely what you see as it works very efficiently for her.

 

[lannamavity]

After watching the Byers girls get better and better at multiple front tumbing over the years, I tried the techniques Eli Rodriguez and Mas Watanabe suggested and it really made a difference.

The general goal (some exceptions) is for multiple front tumbling skills to remain at shoulder height across the floor, therefore, the arm movement for each successive skill is side middle to forward, side middle to forward, etc. This encourages straight body alignment upon punching the floor, and forward momentum (by reaching) for the next skill. I just tell the kids to hurdle fast, punch vertical and swing their arms through a horizonal plane from punching to reaching forward, and they all sort of find their own way to do it.

I often find that overhead reach tends to make the salto higher (for kids with stonger punch), but linear momentum is diminished, and weaker kids just end up flinging their arms toward the ground (often piking), cutting short any momentum or height for rotation. Under-arm reach often compromises forward momentum, and doesn't seem to come naturally for kids. "Russian lift" can be very efficient in some cases, but useless when it comes to an athlete's repoitoire on four events.

We have pretty much rendered front handsprings obsolete except for training purposes. The girls' front layouts have become more efficient than the handsprings, plus a layout combined with any B, C or D/E salto is bonus...I can't think of a compelling reason to even do a front handspring if the kid's front layout is good. Handsprings are a waste of space in a tumbling pass.

As we all know...each kid has their own style. Orlando was an incredible tumbler in her day.

Mas has videos avaliable somewhere if you look him up...

 

[BlairBob]

Mas also has a really good blog that I like to read over on the GymSmarts Community. It's very in depth.

One of the problems with training the arm circle is everyone think it's a big arm circle like trampolinists use in the compulsory routines or is taught in the developmental levels. The arm circle has to become smaller with bent arms to move fast.

After many clinics and talking about it a lot, you do have to change the entry depending on what you are doing with the front saltos if it's just one big one or multiple salto combos with twists. ( horizontal vs vertical amplitude and momentum ).

 

[emacmommy]

Thanks for the GymSmarts tip. I had been there before, didn't add it as a favorite, never managed to search my way back. Then forgot about it, of course.

 

[KBT]

I use the underarm circle technique on front tucks because I couldn't get consistent timing on the lift without it. This is probably because I knew when the underarm swing should start in relation to the hurdle from vault and therefore started the arm movement at the same time every time I went to do a front tuck. I never had trouble with the timing of the arms on a fronthandspring so I do not use an underarm circle then.