Coaches Long hang kip and baby giant problems

[gymisforeveryone]

Hi!

I coach a group of 9-10 year old girls who are in level C here in Finland. I know it doesn't say anything to you so let me explain. It's the second compulsory level in the order and the first level where kip is needed - sort of. Their routine is done on high bar only (wooden) and it has these skills:

1. Leg lift from hanging, lover to L-position, hold 2 sec
2. Hollow - arch, start tap swings
3. 0-3 tap swings
4. Kip OR long hang pullover (if long hang pull over, the start value is 9.50 instead of 10)
5. Cast - baby giant - connected to back hip circle (so no cast in between)
6. Underswing and release the bar in the back position of the tap swing

My girls are not scoring very well. I know they are just starting out in this level and their scores have increased a bit but they are still struggling with the kip and the baby giant. Our kipping situation is this:

2 girls can do a kip on high bar, on low bar and on strap bar
3 girls can do a kip on low bar and on strap bar
4 girls can do a kip on strap bar only
3 girls can't do a kip of any kind but are pretty close on straps

So right now only two of my gymnasts has the 10.0 start value because they can kip and the others have it 9.5. Long hang pullover only causes many additional deductions because it's very hard to do perfectly out of tap swings.

The problem is that even those 3 girls who can kip on low bar and high strap bar aren't anywhere close to get their long hang kips. They say they feel their hands are slipping off the bar when they try to finish the kip. I just keep telling them they don't have to be scared and we use soft mats under the bar but that's not helping... Do you have any suggestions? I hate it that they have to have the long hang kip before low bar kip which seems to be so much easier for them. Ugh.

Also if you have any suggestions how to make the kids comfortable doing BIG baby giants instead of small ones with bent arms and hips? They are terrified to hurt their hips when they have "too much momentum". That makes them not to tap and just kind of stay straight / hollow all the way and that causes small baby giants, bent hips and arms and hurts even more...

Any tips, drills, suggestions, experiences?

 

[gymisforeveryone]

I'll post this post on the private coach forum too to add a video too. If you want to see the video too and you are not on the private forum PM me and I can send you a link. I don't feel comfortable adding it here where everyone can see it

 

[coachmolly]

Long hang pullovers are HARD! I hate teaching them and avoid it if at all possible. I would keep pushing kips, if they can do a LB kip, timing is usually the big hurdle to doing it on the HB. One of the biggest problems I've seen with my kids is not allowing themselves to swing out quite long enough before bringing toes to the bar. I tell them- "swing out, toes to the bar, kip" or something similar.
For the long hang pullover, I have noticed they are much easier for itty bitty kids, even if their tap isn't great. For the bigger kids, they need a tap, and I've read here that a late tap can help. But in order for that to happen, the kid needs a solid tap swing in the first place.
I would focus a lot on tap swings as that will help with most skills in the routine. Tap swings can ALWAYS use work and take time to teach correctly. And without a decent tap swing, a good baby giant isn't likely to happen. And results in the hip pounding your girls want to avoid!
Do you have a pit bar they can work the baby giants over? I think those are ideal. Or set up where you can spot big cast-baby giant-hips miss the bar? Sort of like this:


You could also just encourage them to miss their hips on the baby giant on strap bar, it takes a strong tap and quick shift, but is good prep for giants.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

Thanks Coachmolly!

I don't think the timing is the main issue with high bar kips because they could kip all day on the strap bar, and I think the timing is similar on wooden high bar? Maybe slightly different (or they use a bit wrong timing on the strap bar and it allows it better?)

They are not that big, pretty small for their age and most of them are still 9 years old, only two of them have turned 10. We work on baby giants and "teenage"giants (hollow) on straps too and they can do them spotted pretty well. On strap bar we have sometimes used foam wrapped around the bar to make it soft and less scary and that helps but I hate setting it up because it takes so many minutes of our bar rotations and putting the straps on is harder.

I would love to spot like the coach in the video does but with my girls spotting like that would be hard since they don't swing so high and they bend their hips automatically... On straps it's easy to spot but on wooden bar not so much

We will focus on tap swings more, totally can't hurt any of them!

 

[gymdog]

This sounds like a conditioning issue. Can they climb he rope without feet at all? How are their back extension rolls?

 

[gymisforeveryone]

Yes they can - some more and some less. When we had tests before Holidays they could do approximately 10 steps without feet. Some of them can go all the way up. Of course the stronger ones do better with kips but then again there's some really strong who can't figure out the long hang kip.

Back extension rolls - maybe 7/12 have it consistently and the rest can do it sometimes with a little luck or down a cheese mat.

 

[gymdog]

They need to improve on the back extension rolls for the baby giant. The ones who have very strong ones can lay on a panel mat holding a floor bar and practice snapping over to a push up position, like the end of what is shown in the video.

10 steps without feet should be strong enough to hold the bar for a long hang kip. When they swing do they put their head out or move their head? Do they use grips?

 

[gymisforeveryone]

We do that back extension roll drill sometimes with floor bar but we don't use panel mats but cheese mats or spring boards. Is that ok too? They can all do it and some of them can even go to the handstand.

The head position is a good point. Some of them move their head out but honestly I didn't pay much attention to it earlier. Most of them just do a leg lift when they try to do a long hang kip by themselves. They are so scared to put 100% effort to it because they feel they are going to slip off.

They wear grips and they have worn them for a year now.

 

[gymdog]

I would check the grips to make sure they aren't now too small.

They shouldn't move their head, it should stay with their arms.

How often do they do strap bar? Maybe they have done it so much they are having trouble transitioning? Do you use a pipe or gloves? If gloves, maybe having them do it on the strap bar without straps (no grips) might help? I'm not sure. I've never had a problem with kids who can do a low bar kip getting it on high bar.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

We use a strap bar a lot because we have just one set of uneven bars. In addition to that we have two strap bars and that's it. So if I want them to have many turns on bars and not stand in line we have to use the strap bars. Maybe that is too much... Do you think the grip strength is the problem? More ropes to develop that?

I don't let them work on strap bar without straps because chalk is not allowed on it and without it it's too slippery.

Could it be part of the problem that they usually do many tap swings before trying kips? Would it be ideal to just do a squat on jump to high bar and the kip immediately without tap swings? The girls are just starting their jumps to high bar because the bars are set up so wide and we are not allowed to move them closer. So they have never tried to do a kip straight out of the jump.

 

[Jenny]

On strap bar we have sometimes used foam wrapped around the bar to make it soft and less scary and that helps but I hate setting it up because it takes so many minutes of our bar rotations and putting the straps on is harder.

Thread 2 or 3 wristbands through the strap bar and leave them there. You can use them to clean the bar off and leave them at the side or you can slide them to be between where the girls put their straps on. Just softens the metal if they land on it.

 

[Jenny]

Could it be part of the problem that they usually do many tap swings before trying kips? Would it be ideal to just do a squat on jump to high bar and the kip immediately without tap swings? The girls are just starting their jumps to high bar because the bars are set up so wide and we are not allowed to move them closer. So they have never tried to do a kip straight out of the jump.

I have found too many swings before kipping or too high tap swings before kipping can be an issue . Try with just one tap swing.

For kids with a good low bar kip I have found it easier to jump and kip straight away with the bars in very close. That way the jump isn't scary and they can concentrate on the kip. Once they have it from a jump it is easier from tap swings.

Why can't you move them in? It only usually takes a few seconds. I would ask for permission.

 

[coachmolly]

After looking at the video you posted in the private forum, it looks like they might have trouble shifting their hands. This could be a result of lots of strap bar work where the shift isn't as much of a concern.
Maybe you could move around what you do on each bar, still using the straps but for clear hips instead and move tap swings to the uneven bars? Just to help them get a better feel for the wooden rail, swinging big, and shifting their hands.
If you really can't move the bars in, maybe you could put a spotting block slightly closer to the HB to sort of simulate a jump to the HB action.

 

[gymdog]

We use a strap bar a lot because we have just one set of uneven bars. In addition to that we have two strap bars and that's it. So if I want them to have many turns on bars and not stand in line we have to use the strap bars. Maybe that is too much... Do you think the grip strength is the problem? More ropes to develop that?

I don't let them work on strap bar without straps because chalk is not allowed on it and without it it's too slippery.

Could it be part of the problem that they usually do many tap swings before trying kips? Would it be ideal to just do a squat on jump to high bar and the kip immediately without tap swings? The girls are just starting their jumps to high bar because the bars are set up so wide and we are not allowed to move them closer. So they have never tried to do a kip straight out of the jump.

They should be able to do it from swings. That's how I teach long hang kips. It may be grip strength for some of them, but if they can go ten steps without feet on the rope I'm not sure that's all of it. I think they probably have the strength but don't know how to move their hands on the bar.

I wish you had more low bars, but I would have them do sets of 3-5 glides in the low bar making sure they're shifting their hands in the back of the glide. If they can't do that, have them put their legs on a barrel, or if you don't have a barrel you can use something tied in a loop over the bar and they put their feet in the bottom of the loop. Once they've mastered shifting their hands on the glide, then have them do 3 glides and kip on the 3rd. When they pass that move them to high bar doing the three swings.

 

[gymisforeveryone]

Thank you so much guys!

We also have boys parallel bars and I'm planning on making them do glide series on them like gymdog suggested. We will also add the back extension rolls on floor bar in every bar rotation and I'll make them jump to the high bar from a block.

I think we will also focus on clear hips and baby giants on strap bar for shapes and on wooden bar we will do tap swings and kips.

I'll keep you updated and we will see how it goes.

 

[wordsmith]

Long hang pullover only causes many additional deductions because it's very hard to do perfectly out of tap swings.

~~~

Also if you have any suggestions how to make the kids comfortable doing BIG baby giants instead of small ones with bent arms and hips? They are terrified to hurt their hips when they have "too much momentum". That makes them not to tap and just kind of stay straight / hollow all the way and that causes small baby giants, bent hips and arms and hurts even more...

Any tips, drills, suggestions, experiences?

I think I have some Tom Forster/Neil Resnick bar boot camp clips that may help stimulate some thoughts and ideas for you. I'll either look it up on one of my old YouTube channels; or will try to track them down on an external hard drive and re-upload them later tonight.

In the meanwhile, for the long hang pullover, have them drill wriggles (arch-hollows) hanging on the bar, and end it with a turnover to candle with the goal of touching their thighs to the bar. They most likely won't be able to straight-arm pullover to front support like this, but if you can spot them by the lower legs and they are able to stay tight, you can help them turnover into front support. What you're drilling into them is the idea that a long hang pullover or a baby giant that goes over the bar should not be a killer on their hips. The arms remain straight of course, by pushing the bar down to touch at the thighs- not pulling in and slamming at the hips.

The next step would be to do the same drill from tap swings. Have them initiate the turnover sooner, as they begin swinging forward through the bottom (my experience is that gymnasts will turnover too slow or too late in relation to the amount of swing, and the timing will be totally off with the gymnast completing the turnover as her body is already beginning to counterswing). With just a slight spot, it should be simple to help them figure out how to turnover with straight arms, bar at the thighs- like a straight arm pullover/2nd 1/2 of a back hip circle-feeling.

For baby giant, regarding issues with strength and spotting as a coach, there are a couple of methods I've used for heavier kids or ones I'm not so sure about on their first tries. Instead of spotting them as in coachmolly's midwest twister video (method I love, btw), what I'll do is stand on the other side of the bar (backside), bend and reach over the bar. As the gymnast begins her upswing, I reach down to her and help pull her over and onto my shoulder (like landing hollow pushup onto a spotting block- my shoulder being the block). As confidence increases, you won't have to reach down so far and the gymnast will begin swinging higher with confidence that she isn't going to slam into the bar; eventually, transition to the other spotting method. Of course this may still require some physical strength; but I feel it is much easier to spot with the focus on safety and confidence-building over correct shaping (which I think is better managed with the other spotting method in the video).

The other way to do this is to spot like you might do for a flyaway (front side of the bar, as the coach is shown in the video). On the upswing, support them at the hips and help them rise high with a turnover to front support. Maybe that's still too physically taxing; but it's another suggestion.

Now another method is one I had seen at that Forster/Resnick camp (I'll find the video). Pad up the bar between the hands as you would do for clear hips. On the upswing, the gymnast will tuck into a mad cat shape and touch/land their shins on the bar pad. The feeling should be like a tucked straight arm backward roll on the floor (which you should also drill into your gymnasts- and of course 3/4 back extension to hollow pushup) with neutral head position and fully extended, rounded back. I've only tried this once or twice but it's never been a favored method. But it might be worth a shot.

It sounds like your girls could definitely benefit from some wrist-shifting drills.

 

[wordsmith]

It should be stressed to them that there is no pulling into the bar. Drill the straight arms into them, that the bar is pushed down to the thighs. This will avoid the hip slamming. Whether they make it to front support or not should be incidental, for now. Shift a bit of their mental focus to that instead of getting over/above the bar. When that's their focus, the default method usually taken by gymnasts is to bend the arms and pull into the bar. Ouch.

 

[gymdog]

I think I have some Tom Forster/Neil Resnick bar boot camp clips that may help stimulate some thoughts and ideas for you. I'll either look it up on one of my old YouTube channels; or will try to track them down on an external hard drive and re-upload them later tonight

Good idea. They would probably say to use the "jump back glide" method from a block, but as a long hang, I think.

So the kids would stand on a block behind the bar with their hands already holding the bar, and then jump up and back while pushing the bar, and swing forward from there. I usually use this as a low bar drill into a glide, but you could adapt it with a higher block for the long hang and just jump back into a long hang glide.

 

[wordsmith]

I think I have some Tom Forster/Neil Resnick bar boot camp clips that may help stimulate some thoughts and ideas for you. I'll either look it up on one of my old YouTube channels; or will try to track them down on an external hard drive and re-upload them later tonight.

Sorry for not following up right away with this. I don't know if you are still interested or in need of suggestions/ideas, but for what it's worth, here are a couple of vids that might help (hope I figured out the embed correctly):

 

[gymisforeveryone]

Thank you! Really nice videos, I'll try the first ones. The last one seems a little too advanced to my girls.