Margaux’s Story: A Gymnast Finally Speaks Out

[bogwoppit]

Margaux’s Story: A Gymnast Finally Speaks Out – Inner Magic

innermagic.co.uk

A UK gymnast speaks out on her abuse.

 

[coachmolly]

This is the sport I fell in love with as a little kid, it's been the driving force for most of my life. But right now? I hate it. So sick of these patterns, the lack of self awareness amongst coaches (particularly high level ones), and the inability to listen, learn, and do better. I know there are great coaches out there who are doing great things, unfortunately these are not the coaches who were problematic in the first place. And the ones behaving like those in this story are left to continue on because they are achieving results.

 

[cmg]

I guess my question is why are they achieving results? I would think it would be so much better to have a coach that lifts you up and helps you through the bad times to reach higher levels. But it seems there is a school of thought that thinks the only way to achieve a high level of gymnastics is to control, belittle, and create an atmosphere of extreme compliance. Unfortunately this method has achieved results so it is copied. I would be interested to hear how Simone's experiences have been besides the Larry Nassar issues. I just assumed that she was not raised in a gym that had the emotional abusive behavior, but I don't know. It seems like all we hear about are the stories of elite athletes enduring abuse but also being successful. Are there any gymnasts who are successful and at the elite level that have had positive coaching experiences?? If so I would love to hear about those stories.

 

[curlygirls]

This is heartbreaking and infuriating. How can something be shocking and unsurprising at the same time? Catherine Lyons and Lisa Mason are also speaking out.

'Beaten and starved': Stars allege abuse at heart of British Gymnastics | ITV News

Two of the sport's stars have told ITV News they received shocking treatment from their coaches from a very young age. | ITV National News

www.itv.com

 

[Faith]

I guess my question is why are they achieving results? I would think it would be so much better to have a coach that lifts you up and helps you through the bad times to reach higher levels. But it seems there is a school of thought that thinks the only way to achieve a high level of gymnastics is to control, belittle, and create an atmosphere of extreme compliance. Unfortunately this method has achieved results so it is copied. I would be interested to hear how Simone's experiences have been besides the Larry Nassar issues. I just assumed that she was not raised in a gym that had the emotional abusive behavior, but I don't know. It seems like all we hear about are the stories of elite athletes enduring abuse but also being successful. Are there any gymnasts who are successful and at the elite level that have had positive coaching experiences?? If so I would love to hear about those stories.

in my opinion a lot is self fulfilling. These methods get kids to the top quickly, they get on national squads, are given the attention, the money, they physios, told they are going to the olympics etc. Parents, coaches, NGB, officials all invest a lot in a select few and it becomes hard to stop.

If coaches try a healthier approach the success comes slower, kids are ignored by national teams, don’t get the international experience as juniors, confidence is shot as they don’t appear to be “as good”

it takes a lot of faith and trust to stay with a club that builds slowly, when you see other athletes steaming ahead and being picked for everything.

you end up taking a squad of near broken kids to the olympics. All injured, all hanging on painkillers and physio.

thing is everyone else is the same. The ones who get there are the ones who are least broken.

if you change the culture you will have fewer drop outs, fewer burn outs, and a greater number reaching the top. More competition.

catherine lyons for example. All she had to do is stay healthy. Instead she was pushed to breaking and GB lost arguably one of it’s most talented gymnasts. And there were a lot that broke before she did.

Look at the UK’s junior success over the last 10 years. Even in 2014 was it when we had a huge pool of junior talent and won junior europeans And world medals, everyone was excited for 2016. Except only two made it to senior.

 

[kecks]

this is why i personally think that junior olympics and junior european and world champiocnhips just sould not be a thing, in no sport whatsoever. it just motivates coaches and clubs to burn out young talented kids who could do so much in their sport as adult athletes but never get the chance to be one of those because they are just too broken mentally and physically at this point. especially in a sport like wag in which having a pre-puberty-like body is a huge advantage this problem is a big one.

 

[coachmolly]

I think there are a lot of dynamics at play and I think Faith nailed a lot of it. It's "worked" in the past and is so deeply ingrained in the culture of the sport that trying to use different, gentler tactics can receive a lot of pushback. Not just among coaches and national bodies, but also among parents. So many parents think that "tough love" (which is usually just a nice word for abusive methods) is the only way for their child to achieve success that they will pull their kid from a program just because they feel like it isn't demanding enough. As a coach I had parents who could not wait for their kid to be moved out of my group and into the higher level group with a coach who was very firm and "old school" in her tactics because they thought tougher was automatically better. I've also worked in gyms where yelling and belittling were the norm and it was assumed that my kids were out of control or labeled as the "bad kids" because I would let them talk at the beginning of practice or laugh with them. The progress of my kids didn't actually matter, the fact that I didn't scream meant I was very quickly marked as a coach who should be limited to working with recreational and low level compulsory kids because my style of coaching just wouldn't work with higher level kids. In that environment the kids had been brought up with fear-based coaching and performed out of a desire to avoid consequences rather than the intrinsic motivation to be their best selves, so when I came in and didn't operate that way I did get push back from the kids and had quite the uphill battle. But there were kids who came around and did very well.
I think ego is a big problem in coaching. Coaches who are humble and in it for the right reasons are definitely out there and doing the work to improve, but those typically aren't the coaches who are putting themselves in the spotlight, they fly under the radar. Meanwhile the coaches who are completely lacking in self awareness are the ones who can feed parents a very convincing argument about why their tactics work and why the parents should buy in, even if something just feels a little off. Those coaches base their worth on the success of their athletes, so they push and overwork and burnout kids so they can have the honor of having an elite or x number of scholarship athletes regardless of how many kids are destroyed in the process.

 

[cmg]

in my opinion a lot is self fulfilling. These methods get kids to the top quickly, they get on national squads, are given the attention, the money, they physios, told they are going to the olympics etc. Parents, coaches, NGB, officials all invest a lot in a select few and it becomes hard to stop.

If coaches try a healthier approach the success comes slower, kids are ignored by national teams, don’t get the international experience as juniors, confidence is shot as they don’t appear to be “as good”

it takes a lot of faith and trust to stay with a club that builds slowly, when you see other athletes steaming ahead and being picked for everything.

you end up taking a squad of near broken kids to the olympics. All injured, all hanging on painkillers and physio.

thing is everyone else is the same. The ones who get there are the ones who are least broken.

if you change the culture you will have fewer drop outs, fewer burn outs, and a greater number reaching the top. More competition.

catherine lyons for example. All she had to do is stay healthy. Instead she was pushed to breaking and GB lost arguably one of it’s most talented gymnasts. And there were a lot that broke before she did.

Look at the UK’s junior success over the last 10 years. Even in 2014 was it when we had a huge pool of junior talent and won junior europeans And world medals, everyone was excited for 2016. Except only two made it to senior.

Your response is exactly right, so patience is a virtue. This is exactly the reason why I have suggested that the minimum Olympic age for women's gymnastics get moved up to 18, maybe even all sports. You see far more gymnasts turning 16 and competing in the Olympic year than any other sport. There have been some in swimming and perhaps track and field, but that is all I can think of right now, but I am sure there are other sports that have younger kids, but 16 year old's are the exception not the norm as in gymnastics.

This is also where USAG needs to step in and LEAD the way to better coaching and take a longer view on winning. They have not done anything from my perspective on this issue. Now I agree that the new CEO is doing better and she walked into a giant mess of an organization and true change does take time, but I don't see them taking on the emotional abuse issue yet. Granted they had to deal with the Larry Nassar issue, but I do believe that the issues of sexual and emotional abuse go hand in hand. It is a lot easier to have sexual abuse when the emotional abuse is already there.

So my daughter happens to be be at a gym that takes the slow road. Perhaps that is because the owner coaches the boys team and with men's gymnastics there is a lot more time to get to the top due to the strength required to perform men's gymnastics. I remember one year I watched both the men's and women's Olympic gymnastics team at a news tv show or some sort of thing. I thought oh that would be cute if they dated each other, but quickly changed my mind since the men would all be arrested if they dated the women's team since they were all under age of consent, while the men's team was full of grown men in their twenty's. To me this is a huge issue and can only be changed from the top. America likes to win, and will put these young girls in harms way in order to do so. We have seen that over and over.

So as far as results go, our gym has not produced any women's college recruits in probably 20 years which is why most of the girls who want that track go to another local gym who has someone if not several college ready gymnasts every year. They produce really good gymnasts, but I can not tell you how many girls have gone there, hoping to get to college and then dropped out either due to disagreements with the coach, injuries, or just not enjoying gymnastics any more. Yes many survive, but personally the college scholarship is not worth risking to see if my daughter is one of those who survive or not. I have heard many stories directly from people who have quit what it is like at that gym. I am not saying this gym is abusive to the extreme, but I know that the atmosphere is not right for my daughter. So yes my daughter may not be "tough" enough for that gym, but I don't think she should have to be that tough to reach her dreams. I do realize that gymnastics has a very high drop out rate at the higher levels even with the best coaching, but I know that several of these girls were very talented and could have made it to the college level if they wanted. We will see what happens with my daughter. She is late to the game for sure since she is just starting Level 10 this year and she is a junior. She is not going to try to go to a top school and will most likely have to walk on, but I am fine with that. Her happiness is central to my decision making. The coaching at our gym has improved but I find that finding great gymnastics coaches is really a difficult task.

I think at this point we all just have to find the best gym for our own kids. We live in a small town and do not have a lot of choices so I have chosen to stay with the same gym instead of moving around. We make the best decisions with the information we have. I would just like to see elite gymnasts with positive stories instead of survival stories. That would make me feel better about the sport my daughter loves.

 

[kendo348]

Those coaches base their worth on the success of their athletes, so they push and overwork and burnout kids so they can have the honor of having an elite or x number of scholarship athletes regardless of how many kids are destroyed in the process.

Just thinking out loud here, about this ego and abuse issue... and maybe this has been said often before but I’ve missed it... While there are many factors that affect emotional intelligence, I imagine some of the egotistic coaches define themselves by the numerical success of their gymnasts partly because numerical success in gymnastics is the only way they’ve ever known to define themselves. If the culture and structure (re: CB’s most recent SHIFT thread about training intensity) changes to where gymnasts are more able and encouraged to hold other identities as well, perhaps the next generation of coaches would be more able to have a healthy relationship with their job because they wouldn’t hold gymnastics as their only valuable identity. Maybe a higher percentage of coaches would be coaching because they are skilled and passionate about both the sport AND teaching, while the ones who are only passionate about the sport but really shouldn’t be coaching would be more likely to self-select out and join other fields (rather than coaching solely because the gym is the only world they know.)

I’m not generalizing that all abusive coaches don’t have other mediums for self-definition (some coach negatively just because that’s the way they were coached, or various other unfortunate reasons.) Rather, I am speculating that there may be cases where coaching by default rather than love of coaching is a contributing factor to the use of negative methods.

I am also not saying that high-quality, respectful coaching technique cannot be learned by those to whom teaching does not come naturally - it can and we should expect it. Just pondering an additional reason to pursue structure change. Letting gymnasts be more well-rounded is not only what athletes deserve but it would also likely produce a more emotionally healthy and self-weeding coaching pool.

There are required certification courses for USAG coaches, correct? Do any of these focus on the communication/emotional health/child development aspects of coaching, to train good TEACHERS, or are they solely about safe skill progression/technique oriented?

 

[coachmolly]

Just thinking out loud here, about this ego and abuse issue... and maybe this has been said often before but I’ve missed it... While there are many factors that affect emotional intelligence, I imagine some of the egotistic coaches define themselves by the numerical success of their gymnasts partly because numerical success in gymnastics is the only way they’ve ever known to define themselves. If the culture and structure (re: CB’s most recent SHIFT thread about training intensity) changes to where gymnasts are more able and encouraged to hold other identities as well, perhaps the next generation of coaches would be more able to have a healthy relationship with their job because they wouldn’t hold gymnastics as their only valuable identity. Maybe a higher percentage of coaches would be coaching because they are skilled and passionate about both the sport AND teaching, while the ones who are only passionate about the sport but really shouldn’t be coaching would be more likely to self-select out and join other fields (rather than coaching solely because the gym is the only world they know.)

I’m not generalizing that all abusive coaches don’t have other mediums for self-definition (some coach negatively just because that’s the way they were coached, or various other unfortunate reasons.) Rather, I am speculating that there may be cases where coaching by default rather than love of coaching is a contributing factor to the use of negative methods.

I am also not saying that high-quality, respectful coaching technique cannot be learned by those to whom teaching does not come naturally - it can and we should expect it. Just pondering an additional reason to pursue structure change. Letting gymnasts be more well-rounded is not only what athletes deserve but it would also likely produce a more emotionally healthy and self-weeding coaching pool.

There are required certification courses for USAG coaches, correct? Do any of these focus on the communication/emotional health/child development aspects of coaching, to train good TEACHERS, or are they solely about safe skill progression/technique oriented?

You make a lot of really great points. I think a lot of coaches do get into coaching for reasons other than a genuine passion for working with children- unfulfilled dreams of their own or gymnastics being the only thing they know so it seems like the only option are pretty common ones I've seen. Unfortunately there isn't much coaching education, at least not in the United States. Coaches who really desire education can find it, usually at their own expense, but you can get pretty far without it, especially if you were a high level athlete yourself.
There are required courses but they are pretty minimal. All coaches and athletes over 18 need to take the basic SafeSport course yearly which is a pretty broad overview of preventing sexual abuse and a little on emotional abuse. Coaches who have USAG professional membership (needed to be on the floor at meets) need to take a Safety Certification class (online) and get a background check, but most clubs don't ask recreational coaches to do those things. There is no required hands on training or really anything in depth on child development or social-emotional health. I think most gyms ignore that part of training staff as well. I think any time a staff meeting I've been part of has addressed teaching methods has been because a parent complained.
Someone else in this thread can give way more info, but I have always been of the understanding that British Gymnastics and Gymnastics Canada have much stricter protocols for how someone becomes qualified to coach, particularly at the competitive levels.
Not sure if this is at all related, but something I think about often is that if you look at almost any job posting for a coach it will say that they are looking for someone loud/outgoing/extroverted/gregarious or the like. Not at all saying that those types of personalities are more likely to use negative tactics as I know plenty of coaches who are very loud, positive, and fun who were absolutely made to coach/teach, but there is very much a type when it comes to coaches and I think that oftentimes carries far more weight than something like emotional intelligence. Walk into a gym with a big, dynamic personality and you've got a job even if your experience is lacking- especially if you're a guy and can do lots of spotting. Not saying those people can't be taught to be great coaches, but I think it's a testament to how low something like knowledge of child development or any type of self awareness is on the list of what a gym is looking for.