Young optionals and elite gymnastics

[mygymgirls]

I am not sure if this is the right place to ask these questions, but I am not sure who else to ask, so here goes...just a few questions about young optional gymnasts and elite gymnastics:

Is it possible to go through the JO levels (through L 10) and then decide to persue elite gymnastics later, or is this something that must be determined before moving to level 9 and 10? At what point (age/level)must one decide on one path or the other?

In elite training, how important is it to be surrounded by athletes with similar goals? Must a gymnast train in a gym with other elites? How important is it that the coaches have experience with elite training?

I do realize that many factors can come into play such as injuries, fear, loss of interest, burnout, etc...but if a gymnast chooses not to try for elite and is on track for doing 6 or 7 years of level 10, is that too many years? Do college bound gymnasts typically do this many years at level 10?

For any parent (or gymnast) who has been a position to decide whether or not your daughter should go the elite route: Do you have any regrets about allowing your daughter to persue elite gymnastics? Do you regret NOT allowing your daughter to persue elite?

Thanks for reading! I would appreciate any insight

 

[bogwoppit]

MOst gymnasts in the USA who make it to ELite, do so by going through the levels. Tough some may skip a level or do more than one level per year. It is definitely possible.

I think the gym is important, as in they should have great coaching, a strong optional team and good communication with the parents. If they have never had the higher optionals in their gym I would wonder why.

My oldest was 6/7 when she asked to do what those girls do, after seeing an international meet. We looked into it and decided the commitment wasn't for our family. NO regrets, especially as she struggled with many injuries whilst training even limited hours and now at 14 no longer does WAG.

 

[grizzoline]

Basically, anything is possible.

Elites always come from a gym with a great optional team, but don't necessarily have Elite team mates. This might be due to a number of reasons: A special talent or a gym that doesn't normally pursue elite and instead focuses on college. Obviously, it might help if there is another girl on the same path.

You don't have to decide at a certain point in time. Many powerhouse gyms (think Texas) do the same hours for the L10s and the Elites, often to make sure there are decent group sizes or to keep the door open to eventually go elite. You can go through the USAG levels as usual, the speed depending on the kid/circumstances, and decide to test elite whenever feels like a good time. A lot of kids start testing when they start L9, but often only get into hopes/pre elite. There are a couple who make the jump from L9 to elite (Madison Kocian & Alyssa Baumann to name recent cases). Tops is not required.
However, Elite requires a lot of training from an early age on, so there's a fine line between keeping the door open and pushing her into it. This is the benefit of a gym with a large optional team but that also mixes Elite track girls with college track girls - it's easier to keep the doors open.

Also, it only somewhat matters which level you actually compete. The key is in pacing and making sure the kid stays healthy. There are a number of gymnasts who have done L10 for years and years. Some try to go elite in between, some do that even at 15/6, which is quite old for an Elite but can workout just fine, some drop back from elite. The key in keeping them challenged and motivated might be in the level they compete, or in the skills they learn. Same with worrying about pushing them in the upper levels too early - it's all about the coaching, about whether or not they're ready for what they're doing. If they're competing routines they're confident with, they should be fine. Unless of course, there's unnecessary pressure created through high expectations, but that's a big no-go anyway.

Generally though - the main goal should always be to get the kid through the years without major injuries. And then just see what's possible for her.

 

[mygymgirls]

Bog- Thanks for your response. How did you look into it? I would love to learn what the commitment is like financially and training-time wise. There are no elites at my daughter's gym so this information is not readily available to me.

Grizzoline-Thanks for responding. What you say about keeping the door open, is exactly what I am curious about. I wonder if she stays on the same track and remains competitive within her age group, and is still progressing, if the door will still be open should we decide at a later point...maybe age 14/L10 instead of age 12/L10...

 

[Aussie_coach]

There are generalizations but there are also exceptions to every rule.

Generally gymnasts who aim to pursue elite are doing so from much earlier on. Often they are going through programs like TOPs alongside their competitive levels training and the coaches are developing them for the elite level. At the elite level there is not a lot of room for mistakes or problems, if they are not trained properly from early on it can jeopardize their chances of ever succeeding.

However, it is of course possible, a well trained level 10 could decide they want to go elite and they could go for it.

But the gym and the coach is as important as the willingness of a gymnast. Coaching elite gymnasts is an expensive activity. It runs at a loss in general. An elite gymnasts needs very 1 on 1 coaching from a highly qualified (so usually highly expensive) coach, a well equipped gym and needs to train many, many hours. The program almost always runs at a loss. However, having this top end program available can boost the funding to the gym in general as it may attract more younger gymnasts.

Due to all this gyms are often quite picky about which kids they will train for elite. They are unlikely to do it if for some reason they don't think its likely that the gymnasts will make it successfully at the elite level.

This is one of the reasons gyms will want to train younger kids up to elite. There is no maximum age limit for elite and no rule stating that a gymnasts must be international standard by 16. A kid could be level 8 at 16 and go on to be an elite at age 20. They would probably also have less risk of injury and longer career as they did not train such long hours while going through puberty. But a gym will generally not do this because the odds of losing the gymnast after they finish high school is to high. kids want to go to college, start careers, have relationships and so on. So they take the younger kids in the hope they'll still be around.

I am not saying all gyms think like this but many do. So someone who wanted to go elite later would need to find a gym with a unique mindset.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Bog- Thanks for your response. How did you look into it? I would love to learn what the commitment is like financially and training-time wise. There are no elites at my daughter's gym so this information is not readily available to me.

Grizzoline-Thanks for responding. What you say about keeping the door open, is exactly what I am curious about. I wonder if she stays on the same track and remains competitive within her age group, and is still progressing, if the door will still be open should we decide at a later point...maybe age 14/L10 instead of age 12/L10...

what would you like to know specifically? i think i can help answer some of your questions.

 

[bogwoppit]

Bog- Thanks for your response. How did you look into it? I would love to learn what the commitment is like financially and training-time wise. There are no elites at my daughter's gym so this information is not readily available to me.

...

Dunno can answer questions specific to USA and it's system, so tak ehim up on that offer.

What I did was look at the clubs in our Province that had produced high level gymnasts, including an Olympian. I called them and asked them about their developpmental programme. My little one was good enough to be accepted. But basically the little ones trained 15 hours a week at 7/8 and then went into a sport etudes programme, mornings in school, bussed to gym and then 5 hours of gym each afternoon.

 

[mygymgirls]

what would you like to know specifically? i think i can help answer some of your questions.

Thanks Dunno I guess I'll give you a bit of background.

She is 10yo 1st yr L9. She has trained TOPs (3 hrs/wk) since L5 but our gym won't take them for testing. She has scored mid 36s to mid 37s at all levels so far. She is aiming for elite but is at a gym without any elites or coaches with elite experience. They have coached some girls to D1 scholarships, but I gather from reading on cb that D1 and elite can be very different things. It is a low-key, low-pressure program that competes USAG but trains hours similar to YMCA. Her teammates all have varying degrees of interest, potential and commitment to the sport.

Seeing Aussie Coach's comment that "An elite gymnasts needs very 1 on 1 coaching from a highly qualified (so usually highly expensive) coach, a well equipped gym and needs to train many, many hours." confirms some of the concerns I have about where she trains. I feel conflicted, however, because although she "KNOWS" she wants to do this, I am not sure that at age 10 I want her to sign her childhood away for long hours and wear and tear on her body, for a possible shot at something.

So I guess I want to know if we are leaving the door open for elite as long as she continues progressing and being competitive in her age group and level? Do we need to decide now at age 10? Can we wait until age 13?...or has she already missed the boat since she is not training in an elite program If she stays put and attempts elite training where she is, what are her chances of success, given the program she is in?

Thanks so much for any advice you can offer

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Thanks Dunno I guess I'll give you a bit of background.

She is 10yo 1st yr L9. She has trained TOPs (3 hrs/wk) since L5 but our gym won't take them for testing. She has scored mid 36s to mid 37s at all levels so far. She is aiming for elite but is at a gym without any elites or coaches with elite experience. They have coached some girls to D1 scholarships, but I gather from reading on cb that D1 and elite can be very different things. It is a low-key, low-pressure program that competes USAG but trains hours similar to YMCA. Her teammates all have varying degrees of interest, potential and commitment to the sport.

Seeing Aussie Coach's comment that "An elite gymnasts needs very 1 on 1 coaching from a highly qualified (so usually highly expensive) coach, a well equipped gym and needs to train many, many hours." confirms some of the concerns I have about where she trains. I feel conflicted, however, because although she "KNOWS" she wants to do this, I am not sure that at age 10 I want her to sign her childhood away for long hours and wear and tear on her body, for a possible shot at something.

So I guess I want to know if we are leaving the door open for elite as long as she continues progressing and being competitive in her age group and level? Do we need to decide now at age 10? Can we wait until age 13?...or has she already missed the boat since she is not training in an elite program If she stays put and attempts elite training where she is, what are her chances of success, given the program she is in?

Thanks so much for any advice you can offer

1. yes, the door is open.

2. no, to by age 10. must have a plan though as you near 12/13 years old.

3. no, has not missed the boat BUT now is the right age to begin working on the compulsories.

4. just because the program she is in has only had college bound athletes does not mean that they don't know how to coach an athlete and all that it takes given the elite level. this is conversation that must take place NOW. if they know that they might have a committed family that certainly can change things. or, maybe they don't want anything to do with the elite level like most programs. if they don't, then you must know that now if your intention is to continue to be pulled in that direction by your daughter and her abilities.

general: the elite level consumes your life for the time that you are in it. the costs can be upwards of an additional 8-10 grand a year, above tuition costs, etc;, for as long as it takes to make the national team and that's IF your child has that biology to accomplish and succeed to the task. once you make the national team most costs can be paid for by their stipend/salary. the elite level is nomads land. you must be in it for the long haul no matter what and in spite of the anxiety that comes with the 'what if' aspect of the process.

you spend most of your time injured (nagging stuff) after 15 years old. it is unrealistic to expect 'perfect health' thru the process. it does not affect their future health to compete in college where that level scales down quite a bit. and full committment and sacrifice are required to the task. vacations only when the coach, or USAG, says. no birthday parties. no family dinners on a regular basis. grandparents must come to see you. early dismissal from school if you don't go the 'home school' route. no friday night football games. no homecomings or prom unless the training schedule allows. and you must train so hard and long that the word 'hard' is redefined for most families and their child over time. in fairness, the defifnition of fun also changes quite a bit. and changes for the better unlike most people would think.

only positive benefits come out of even attempting the level. it is the most fun i (wife too) ever had as an athlete and as a coach. my wife concurs. and it is also the hardest ANYTHING that we have ever done. that includes raising 3 grown children to adulthood!

there is no easy way/road to accomplish the elite level. and don't believe all that stuff about shawn training only 20 hours a week. it was more during certain times of the year, and in the final analysis it is good consistent training that is cumulative. and the coaches must be as dedicated to the process as anyone else if not more.

any other ??? post them up.

 

[ginnymac]

Wow dunno. I think that was a great, honest reply

 

[mygymgirls]

Dunno, thank you very much for answering my questions and for all of the information you have shared. I really appreciate it! You have given me a lot to think about.

LOL about believing that Shawn only trained 20 hrs/wk. Darn! I was hoping my daughter could get away with doing as few hours

 

[gymnut1]

Dunno - You really know your stuff. Thanks so much for sharing such a great insight.

Mygymgirls - hope it all works out for you - sounds like now is the time to talk to the gym and what a talented dd - good luck in L9.

 

[gymnut1]

Dunno, thank you very much for answering my questions and for all of the information you have shared. I really appreciate it! You have given me a lot to think about.

LOL about believing that Shawn only trained 20 hrs/wk. Darn! I was hoping my daughter could get away with doing as few hours

and let's be honest - if she was only doing 20 hours she would have been able to fit in another 5 to improve her splits

 

[gymcoach34]

Thanks Dunno. I printed your post. I have a family that wants me to take their daughter HOPES/elite, but they won't do anything about her school situation (school will not let her out early), and they want her to miss for the "social" events, like to take last minute "day trips", etc. She is always 15 minutes late to workout. I am having a hard time to get them to understand that her talent alone is not enough... they need 200% commitment before I will commit, and right now they are giving 75% in Level 9 & TOPs. (So therefore I will not commit.)

Any other ideas as to how they can get this through their heads or anything else you have found written that I can give them? Right now I think they think I am being unreasonable with my "demands". I want them to understand its the demands of the program, not me. Any thoughts/ideas? (The kid is also VERY fearful... so I would not take her that route anyway, but I just want them to get their role in the whole thing.. they just want it all & its frustrating!)

 

[Bella's Mom]

any other ??? post them up.

Well....since you opened the door....

1. Can a gymnast go to public school full time and compete/train elite?

2. How does one evaluate a gym and/or coach's ability to train an elite gymnast? How does a parent differentiate between loving their kid's coach yet seeing them as unable to help the gymnast meet her goals? How do you even talk to a coach about such things without insulting them?

3. How common is it for a family to have to move to support an elite's training? On TV, "they" make it look like everyone has to do this. Is this true? I don't think I live anywhere near an elite gym! LOL

4. If a gym isn't interested in helping a gymnast do TOPS, is that indicative of attitude/ability about training an elite gymnast?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Well....since you opened the door....

1. Can a gymnast go to public school full time and compete/train elite?

2. How does one evaluate a gym and/or coach's ability to train an elite gymnast? How does a parent differentiate between loving their kid's coach yet seeing them as unable to help the gymnast meet her goals? How do you even talk to a coach about such things without insulting them?

3. How common is it for a family to have to move to support an elite's training? On TV, "they" make it look like everyone has to do this. Is this true? I don't think I live anywhere near an elite gym! LOL

4. If a gym isn't interested in helping a gymnast do TOPS, is that indicative of attitude/ability about training an elite gymnast?

1. no, not if they are going to take ALL of the classes required that are a part of the regular curriculum. the athletes simply need to be exempted from P.E., study halls, etc; as they have nothing to do with "core" curriculm courses. this becomes more important in high school. you see, the NCAA and it's clearinghouse does not recognize any other courses except "core" curriculum courses. what "core" classes are, and those requirements, can be found at the NCAA Clearinghouse sight. it is these courses which will find the athletes clearing the clearinghouse for their acceptance to college to participate on an athletic team. finally, there are not enough hours in the day to go to school fulltime and sufficiently train to become reasonably successful at the elite level. as i said, just attempting the level is difficult enough. so then the question becomes as to why even attempt the endeavor if 'everyone' doesn't put things in to place that don't obstruct the athlete.

2. as i said, most gyms want nothing to do with the elite level. this makes it very difficult to make decisions as to what you should do with your child. but most gyms i know welcome the conversation and most can identify if a certain child has the biology. with that said, most that i know will be honest enough to let your child go when they are ready. with most gyms, it's not just about the money. i can give you a first hand account that my wife and i experienced years ago. we were just married and beginning a family. and along came this kid. i 'knew' after 2 years of training that this kid would become an elite gymnast. we loved her. BUT, we already had 1 child under 3 and my wife was pregnant with our 2nd. we knew that we couldn't do what we needed to do with this child. so, we set up a meeting with the parents. initially, they thought they or their child had done something wrong to get called in for a 'meeting'. my wife told them that wasn't the case, but we needed to talk with them about their daughter's gymnastics future. by this time, we had already had a couple of national team members, both boys and girls, and i was coaching both. but my wife and i wanted a family also. so, the conversation did not go as i thought it would. we explained where their daughter was at. and where we thought she was going to go. and that we wanted her to go to a gym a few miles from ours. it wasn't any further for them. we thought it was best because we saw no end in sight for their daughter and we could not commit to what we knew was going to happen as we wanted to continue on our family path and would revisit the elite level at a future date. that WE were sorry, and if we had known at the moment that they had placed their daughter with us what abilities she had, then of course we would have sent her on to the nearby gym. that this other gym could accomplish the task. and that WE trusted this gym and their coaching staff. well...it backfired on us. they were angry. their interpretation was that we no longer wanted to coach their child. that there must've been some other underlying reason. and if for this other underlying reason, why we would give up on her so easily. can you all see here how difficult these discussions can be? anyway, we brought the conversation back to where it needed to be. we assured them that there was no underlying reason. that we felt it best for their daughter, and before any more time was lost, that she began training in the elite program right away and that my wife and i had done a stellar job up to that point and this included teaching her the compulsories of that time which she performed beautifully. it just happened faster than even we could have imagined. it was time. well, they wouldn't have any of it. that my wife and i had started this process and it was our moral and ethical responsibility to finish it. that there was no way they could discuss this with their daughter. that they believed she wouldn't leave no matter what. and that if we thought that she could do elite, and that their daughter wanted to do it, then they would support us even if their daughter was not #1. we said okay, we'll find a way to do it, it was 'new' to us since we hadn't done the level whilst raising children, we'll do the best we can do, and that if at any time they felt it was time to go that we would make that call to our colleague. in fact, we had already discussed this with that coach previously. he of course thought we were nuts...but he was single and had no children to raise. suffice, this girl went on to be a 2 time national team member, found herself in several international competitions, and went on to UCLA on a full athletic scholarship and had a successful and storied collegiate career. a few years ago is when she brought up the fact that her parents had shared with her what conversation took place when she was just 12. when she was in for a visit she shared what her parents had told her. and she now had 2 children of her own. her comment was that she knew that my wife and i loved her. but HOW MUCH hit her when she knew what we were willing to do for her future. she told us she loved us and didn't think she respected anyone as much as she did us. nice ending. so, conversations that take place between coaches and parents in this regard are very important. if the coaches are committed to the future of an athlete, whether they are to coach them or not, then these conversations must take place. and they MUST be HONEST conversations. and clubs must be willing to part with an athlete no matter what if for the future of that kid. it's always better to say that you had a part in the upbringing of an athlete and their success.

3. it is very common. it's because no one really wants to do elite. or they don't know how. or both. i'm telling you from experience that doing the elite level is a daunting task. it consumes you. this is why some parents have no choice but to pick up and go. hundreds of kids are evaluated all the time in this elite endeavor. only reputable coaches/programs will tell them to stay where they are at if they don't see 'it'. kids that don't have 'it' will be a burden to a program with other kids that do have 'it'. and coaches that i know that have coached elites won't take them because it is in the kids best interest to stay home. there is nothing wrong with striving to be the best level 10 and competing in college. this too is a very small group nowadays yet this is where the majority end up if they can withstand the rigors and demands of gymnastics over the course of time.

4. no. several of us have produced elite athletes without TOPS. and as i have posted before, shannon miller is the ONLY notable athlete to have tried TOPS. she did it for a year to augment her training and so that steve nunno could test the wares of what he thought he saw. if you know how to coach you don't need TOPS. if you don't know how to coach to that level, but you are committed to the task, the TOPS program and it's education are invaluable. it also places the kids in an environment that tests/stresses them. it is a good measurement for revealing if the kid has what it takes.

 

[sportzmomov3]

This is off original topic, but dunno, I would love to hear your thoughts on the college recruiting process and what is entailed, where you think things are going as far as what difficulty levels are going to be expected in NCAA, how programs are evolving, etc. There's still a common thought that if you reach elite level you're going to get looks from the schools first. I've always been of the mindset that quality over quantity, but that's not how the real world operates...

And I agree with almost all of what you have to say - except for the school part. Our gym has elites of varying ages and elite levels. They all go to public school and are considered full-time. P.E. exempt of course, and possibly an independent study class for the high schoolers. So I do think it's possible to carry a full-time course load and do elite. Of course if we're talking about the time you get out of school, then yes, I agree with you - not enough time in the day to go to school until last bell and then train. Although some gyms I understand have double workouts - in the a.m. before school and then again after school?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Thanks Dunno. I printed your post. I have a family that wants me to take their daughter HOPES/elite, but they won't do anything about her school situation (school will not let her out early), and they want her to miss for the "social" events, like to take last minute "day trips", etc. She is always 15 minutes late to workout. I am having a hard time to get them to understand that her talent alone is not enough... they need 200% commitment before I will commit, and right now they are giving 75% in Level 9 & TOPs. (So therefore I will not commit.)

Any other ideas as to how they can get this through their heads or anything else you have found written that I can give them? Right now I think they think I am being unreasonable with my "demands". I want them to understand its the demands of the program, not me. Any thoughts/ideas? (The kid is also VERY fearful... so I would not take her that route anyway, but I just want them to get their role in the whole thing.. they just want it all & its frustrating!)

truly, the hardest part for a parent is to not have the control and completely submit their child to something that they can not 'see'. if you look at it from their perspective, it is a very scary and daunting task to submit their flesh and blood child on to others. and that's BEFORE you even begin getting your feet wet at the elite level.

but i can assure you and those parents that no one at the elite level gets their cake and eats it too. the entire process, let alone the elite level, has NO guarantees. coaches and parents alike question themselves every step of the way. is it the right thing to do. as i posted, the anxiety alone is enough to kill you. but there will be things that will have to be done, whether a parent likes it or not, or whether a coach likes it or not when answering to superiors, in order to provide a reasonable chance and a reasonable plan for the child to succeed. again, the elite level is daunting and is the hardest ANYTHING that i have ever done.

forgot a part: you can tell them for me...blame FIG and the sport of gymnastics for arriving where it has. if you want your kids to play baseball, and knowing that the potential is there for your child to one day face a 105 mph pitch and that scares the hell out of you then pick knitting for your child in the 1st place. coaches didn't make gymnastics what it is. the athletes have done that. they keep getting better and better. and the FIG and the sport have to keep up. they are not your personal "demands" but ones that the sport of gymnastics demands and requires.

 

[Bella's Mom]

Thanks for the reply and for sharing your experience. You are an invaluable resource here in the CB.

I had been considering seeing if Bella/her coaches are interested in TOPS just because she is so strong and to see if it could help her with goal setting in general. But no one in our gym does TOPS nor are they elite so I wasn't sure if that was a typical relationship. We have a couple of L10s but I don't believe either of them plan on testing for elite or even if our gym is equipped to help them if that's what the girls wanted to do.

I did find out that Cincinnati Gymnastics Academy is "close" to us. Of course, it's a moot point because after seeing fees, NO WAY should Bella expect to ever train there. LOL Mama poor.

 

[Linsul]

and don't believe all that stuff about shawn training only 20 hours a week. it was more during certain times of the year, and in the final analysis it is good consistent training that is cumulative.

I swear, there are some days I feel it would be grand to see that carved into the very building materials any gym with an optional team is built with. I've heard that used as a weapon by so many people who want that training schedule! 'If Shawn got to the Olympics like that, I can make it to Nationals right?' asdfasdf