Coaches back salto head position

[Susan]

I recently took over a group of poorly trained level 7s (technique was never stressed). Their back saltos are limited to tucks and layouts. They all throw their heads back. I have always found this to be difficult to correct once it's been accepted by another coach, which it was, so I am looking for fresh ideas. I have tried to isolate the saltos by having them do them on tramp or by spotting them through "setting drills" or standing saltos since I had to also clean up the RO BHS entry (ie: I didn't want to ask for too many changes in a single tumbling pass, so I broke it down). When the girls try really hard to keep their heads neutral, the tendency is for them to instead throw their shoulders back (lean back at a disproportionate angle), creating a long and low salto that does not punch off the ground. This is hardly an improvement!

In addition to any suggestions/drills, I'd also like opinions on how to work on twisting while we make these corrections. So far, we are working on the second half of the full by doing front pike-open-half twist on the tramp and also doing a half turn on the floor after landing the layout. I am not sure if there are other ways to work on twisting while the saltos themselves improve.

 

[Gymsanity]

'I am not sure if there are other ways to work on twisting while the saltos themselves improve.'
^ Good call, one thing at a time!
Glad to see you working on it, as it is often overlooked (at least from what I've seen at some of the meets) I make a game out of it by having the girls try and do a salto with a piece of foam or bean bag held under their chins. For everyone that has it fall out I add 1 to the number of chin-ups, for everyone that keeps it in, I take 1 away from the number of chin-ups they do at the end of our 'game.' They really like it, and you will see immediate results. Good luck and keep at it.
PS. When these get better, which they will soon, be happy to give some twisting tips as well.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

you can also put them in a soft foam neck collar. i explained this in another thread about whipping heads.

 

[Susan]

Thanks for these ideas Gymsanity and dunno,

I am successfully reminding the kids who just learned their tucks (4s and 5s) to keep their heads neutral with the foam under their chins and it works for them, but when I have the 7s try this, it increases their backwards lean. Instead of whipping their heads back, they lean their entire body back with closed shoulders.

I will give the foam collar a try, but wonder if they will find a similar way to compensate.

 

[CoachGoofy]

How well do they take to explanations of the physics?

We had a head whipper who I did some accidental privates with (no one else showed up for her practice) bc her back pike was not counting (T&T) because throwing her head meant not showing shape in time. We had worked a lot on her head but she was doing the same thing with the leaning. Sooooo we talked about how if you land with your feet a touch behind you, really, you WILL still flip because backwards momentum is a thing!

....we're dorks where I come from. But this kid's saltos look a million times better.

 

[wallinbl]

Sorry - not a coach, but joined the group long enough to post this. I saw this drill at a gym DD tried out with and decided against, but it seemed highly effective at avoiding throwing the head back.

Done on a TumblTrak - one girl does RO-BHS-BT, while another follows down the track a safe distance behind with one hand above her (own) head. Right at the point of going up for the BT, the trailing girl flashes a number of fingers. The girl doing the BT must keep her head forward long enough to see the number of fingers. Turns into a game for the girls and makes them want to keep their head forward.

 

[Susan]

How well do they take to explanations of the physics?

We had a head whipper who I did some accidental privates with (no one else showed up for her practice) bc her back pike was not counting (T&T) because throwing her head meant not showing shape in time. We had worked a lot on her head but she was doing the same thing with the leaning. Sooooo we talked about how if you land with your feet a touch behind you, really, you WILL still flip because backwards momentum is a thing!

....we're dorks where I come from. But this kid's saltos look a million times better.

My coach explained this to me to help me get more height (I was not a head whipper). It worked for me too, but I haven't seen dramatic improvements when I explain it to my gymnasts! Glad to know that it also helped someone else though. When I adopted that technique, it felt like I was reaching my feet back half a mile (might have only been 12 inches, but since you have to go against the momentum that naturally makes you bring your feet in towards your hands, it feels like quite a stretch). I think that some gymnasts aren't willing to step out of their comfort zone to learn how to get that extra 2+ feet on their tumbling!

 

[Susan]

Sorry - not a coach, but joined the group long enough to post this. I saw this drill at a gym DD tried out with and decided against, but it seemed highly effective at avoiding throwing the head back.

Done on a TumblTrak - one girl does RO-BHS-BT, while another follows down the track a safe distance behind with one hand above her (own) head. Right at the point of going up for the BT, the trailing girl flashes a number of fingers. The girl doing the BT must keep her head forward long enough to see the number of fingers. Turns into a game for the girls and makes them want to keep their head forward.

When I have them do this type of game, they can see the fingers -- but only because they lean their shoulders back This is why they get frustrated, their saltos are better at this point with their heads whipped back. When they try to fix it, they end up with one that is long and low.

 

[Susan]

you can also put them in a soft foam neck collar. i explained this in another thread about whipping heads.

Can you explain this more? I took one of the gymnasts to the drug store to pick one out, and the one that fit the best (not perfectly, since it was an adult size) didn't prevent her head from going back very much (maybe a little). I didn't buy it, because I thought maybe a kid size would work better and they didn't carry one. Is it more about the awareness that helps them make the correction, or is it actually supposed to stop the head?

 

[iwannacoach]

It sounds to me that they don't trust you and won't do it your way until they do. Really, what's the difference between you and the previouse couch who let them (or taught them to) throw their heads back.......

Both are adults...... check

Both talk forever to say things they don't understand....... check

Both failed to make them great gymnasts...... check

Three strikes and you're out.

That's the way kids get when they have the run of the roost, or have worked with a happy go lucky, nothing's that important kind of a coach. You're doing the right thing and seem to be going about it the right way by picking out the biggest deal breaker in their tumbling and limiting your work to that one issue. The setting for twisting will have to wait until they've done about 700 layouts the right way by standing up into the air and letting the tumbling actually tumble them into the salto..... with a little help by changing arm positions and core tensions. I think that it all started when Jack fell down and broke his crown, because that's when Jill started tumbling. We just teach it with a bit more purpose.

If you have a fairly soft mini-tramp, like not mushy but not stiff as a brick........

Put the tramp between the pit and the vault table, about 1-2 feet away from the vault. Set it up so the slope of the tramp faces the pit, so high side toward the table and low side toward the pit. Have them put their hands on the table and start bouncing progressively higher to at least a horizontal position with their hands supporting them. From here they should drop to the mini and push off from the table and rebound into a back tuck..... with spot until your positive they can do it on their own and can grow into the activity to the point of approaching a 7/8 handstand on the table prior to dropping into the mini.

This set up will force them to set properly because if they throw their head or shoulders their gonna travel halfway into the next city, so make sure you have at least 12 feet of matted landing..... and that's only enough if they start with bounces up to horizontal on maybe 5/8 handstand.

It really makes them aware of what they need to do, and after a while you'll start to see some semblance of balance as they set for tucks and saltos.

I wouldn't tell them this is a drill to fix their set. Just let them think you've finally seen the light and are letting them do something fun, and it is fun once they get the hang of it (setting), but they don't need to know that.

 

[Faith]

Do you have a tramp? I find them knowing they can get the height and rotation helps them think about the technique, rather than "OMG got to get round go backwards quickly" Also working "on the cross" means they have to set better or they'll travel.

Explanation wise what makes a difference for me is the jump up- not back. Jump up as high as you can, lifting the shoulders and stretching the arms up. Then think about the rotation coming from the tuck action, lifting the hips above the head, rather than lowering the head below the knees. Take the focus off the head and onto the stretch and lift with the arms, shoulders and upper chest..

Could you go old school and do some RO-BHS- stretch jumps onto stacked mats. Then build it to RO-BHS- stretch tuck jump with 1/4 rotation to land on back on shoulder height mat stack? Just give them the feel for going up, then round, rather than straight down into the backwards motion...

 

[kez]

I have some gymnasts just starting to learn back salto's and am keen to prevent them from getting in the habit of throwing the head back. I have tried using various objects under the chin such as a bean bag, foam, socks, ball etc. but find that they have to have their head down to hold the object under the chin and/or they seem to struggle just to complete a straight jump with the object under the chin without it falling out. Is this normal when you first try this? What about the head being positioned down rarther than in a neutral position? Just about to try a collar which incidently came to me when I was in the shower so I was pretty happy to also see this suggestion posted on this board.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

this is precisely why you use the collar. they don't have to "think" and change the mechanics of the other stuff they have to do. the collar softly presses against the back of their head and they move their head back neutral when they feel that gentle 'push'.

 

[jpow]

My favorite drill is just having them do the three bounces off a mini-tramp and stack of blocks and back flip into the pit. It's very easy IMO to focus on whatever issue the gymnast is having. We use this for our higher level 3s and all our level 4s, so they can use it in spring optionals and when they move up to level 5.

 

[stargazer]

I really like the bounce to (nearly) handstand - snap down- back tuck drill, it really does emphasize body position on take-off and they will feel themselves shooting backwards dramatically if they lean too much. Holding an onject under my chin always scared me, so something else that has helped me is when I set, instead of just throwing my arms up, I try to 'shrug' my shoulders to my ears. I always know when my head is thrown back because my shoulders won't be able to 'reach' my ears because they're too far away! I'm not sure if that made any sense at all, but there's my two cents on this issue. Good luck to you and your gymnasts

 

[Susan]

Thanks for all the ideas. I am experimenting with all of them!