how can parents measure progress for young gymnasts??

[Bobby]

Scarecrow66's thread has (indirectly) helped me clarify a question in my own mind about how parents may be able to tell whether their own DD is making "adequate" progress or not.
If you get no organised feedback (like at our club) and your DD is not competing (or in our case not even progressing through levels yet), and the club prefers you don't watch - how in the world do you tell if children are making any/reasonable progress in their current class/club/sport??
It's hard not to be wary given that club profits come from the beginners classes, which means parents of beginners (like us) fund the cost of training the upper levels girls. I believe that's a big DISincentive for coaches to give honest feedback about girls (who have no competitive future).
The best measure I can think of at this moment (for my DD) is whether or not she gets an invite to join the levels team by the end of the year (to start competing L1 early 2011).
I figure the "open" division is intended for late starters, so any child who started young and is making even remotely adequate progress should always compete as an "under" (in the Oz system).
All feedback welcome, and I would love to hear alternate sugestions.
I have been seriously toying with the idea of having DD assessed by another gym (I even emailed them and they were really nice about the possibility), but DD's coach was very unimpressed when I hinted at this so I've dropped it for the time being because I do think highly of the coaches at this club and don't want to upset them. But I'll definitely revisit this option by the end of the year if I still feel this clueless!!
I won't bother asking for feedback because I've heard them give false positive feedback to other parents, and I really don't think our coaches trust that parents are seeking honest opinions not just inviting empty compliments.

PS: I realise some of you may feel like I should allow my DDs to decide for themselves what they want to get out of the sport. But fun alone won't keep me paying the bills (they can muck around in the backyard for free), and I figure children have plenty of opportunity to learn persistence, etc, through other activities than gymnastics.
My 5 yo has recently started piano, and I'm very reassured that there are regular written reports/feedback, plus I have a program which specifies what progress (in terms of difficulty of pieces she can play) I should expect on average for her age (at different hours of tuition and practise. In other words, I will be adequately informed to pull the pin if she doesn't make progress within an average range (bearing in mind she can play around for free for as long as she likes in future). In fact it's really only gymnastics where progress in the early days is such a mystery. Swimming, dancing, .... everything else we've done has had very clear progressions for beginners ... it's very annoying.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Well, not what you want to hear, but I have always thought the best feedback you can get from your child is the look on their face when they come out of the gym after class. And the enthusiasm with which they get ready for the next class.

Having said that most clubs will give you some sort of feedback about your daughters progress on a regular basis, by means of in club competitions or reports. As its only March they probably have not got around to the first one for the year yet. Usually the first one would not be until the end of 1st term. We usually give about 4 reports per year to our beginner parents and the first one goes out in May.

I would be a little wary if the club won't allow you to watch classes at this age. It makes sense with the older kids, but with beginner 5 year olds, most clubs will let you watch.

Its true that our main profits do come from the beginner classes. But I have never heard of a gym holding gymnasts back to make money. If a child has the ability to move up to a higher level and to compete most gyms will make the move. We know that if we keep a child in a class that is not challenging enough for her, she will soon quit and we will be without the gymnast anyway. Even if the girls won't compete surely your gym has recreational classes that are a higher level that she would be moved up to when she is ready. Again most gyms do their assessments for this at set times throughout the year. The most common is at the end of each school term (so the first one would be at the end of march. Some gyms do it only twice a year, so it would happen around June.

As for the "open" and "Unders" division it doesn't really work like that. They aren't for people who started later or anything. When you go to comps you will probably find there are no level 1 open or under divisions at all. Its just a means of splitting the group in half and it doesn't mean anything. The routines are the same for open and unders. Basically most comps will just have all their level 1's (or whatever level) in one division regardless of their age. A big competition will look for a way to split the divisions and they use open and unders. But the open and unders are really only used for level 3-6, and for most comps level 3-4 because they are the biggest.

A more popular way to split the divisions now is novice and competitive based on the hours trained. So if you go to a level 1 comp the divisions will probably be Level 1 Novice (training 2 hours a week or less) and Level 1 open (training more than 2 hours a week).

Don't write her off from competing due to her age, a lot of gyms don't even compete level 1. many don't start until level 2, or 3 or even 4. She could skip level 1 entirely.

I would consider trailing at the new gym, it sounds like you want more for your daughter than the gym is offering you. Don't worry about hurting the coaches feelings, a gymnastics club is a business, and you are a client and you have a right to take your business where ever you want.

 

[Bobby]

...I would be a little wary if the club won't allow you to watch classes at this age. ...

I get the impression from the mums with older girls that this encourages better attendance at carnivals.

...I have never heard of a gym holding gymnasts back to make money...

I'm not worried they wouldn't be moved into the team program if they were good ... but I do wonder if they may give parents an overly rosy view of their future prospects if they're ... not.
Eg: My little DD has recently started kindergym and I was a bit taken aback when the coach commented on how well she was progressing. She's cute, lovable, and will probably develop many talents - but I don't think gym will be one of them. I'm not writing her off at 3, I'm just observing (for example) that her height phobia (she won't hold onto a bar because her feet don't reach the floor) is a bit of an obstacle ...

Thanks for the info on the novice thing. I would have assumed "novice" was a way of splitting girls based on how long they'd been doing gym (eg: 1 year vs two). I think the idea of splitting according to training hours is great.

 

[gymdog]

I have been seriously toying with the idea of having DD assessed by another gym (I even emailed them and they were really nice about the possibility), but DD's coach was very unimpressed when I hinted at this so I've dropped it for the time being because I do think highly of the coaches at this club and don't want to upset them. But I'll definitely revisit this option by the end of the year if I still feel this clueless!!

Why would you tell the coaches about it Why do you think they would be upset? If you take your child who is in classes to be evaluated at another gym, most likely they won't find out about it unless you inform them.

 

[fuzi]

I would ask your child's coach how she is doing and where she stands in terms of advancing. If she doesn't give you honest answers, ask the head coach or gym director. Even at the beginner level, gyms should provide some sort of written evaluation or feedback. In our rec program, we provide written evaluations in the middle of each session with feedback on how gymnasts are progressing on the skills for their level. You could ask if they gym has ever considered progress reports for the parents. You are paying, and you deserve to know how your child is doing.

If this communication doesn't work, I'd consider another gym.

 

[Shelovesthebars]

How would you know if your dd is progressing if you don't get report cards and you don't observe class at least periodically? Our gym does not give formal feedback either so sometimes parents get frustrated and just have to ask. One of the moms did this recently and got negative feedback. Also due to the lack of feedback, the moms of all the other little girls in my dd's class were under the impression that they were all going to competitive level 4. It was quite a shocker when the coach announced that they could compete level 3 but were not ready for 4. I think some of the moms were about to cry.
I too could not spend a lot of money on any sport including gymnastics where one of my children was not learning. It just doesn't make sence. I do realize it is a marathon and not a sprint but in these financial times, we need to feel like our money is being put to use in something that our kids will progress at, even if it is slowly.
As far as telling your dd's gym about getting her evaluated somewhere else, I probably would have done that without telling them. It may produce some tension that your dd doesn't need. I do, however, feel that you have every right to get her evaluated somewhere else and go from there. If you do take her somewhere else, ask what their policy is on feedback because you just may be getting in the same boat but a different seat so to speak. Be clear to the new gym on what your expectations are but be careful about speaking badly of the other gym.

 

[Bobby]

Why would you tell the coaches about it Why do you think they would be upset? If you take your child who is in classes to be evaluated at another gym, most likely they won't find out about it unless you inform them.

The other gym isn't an ordinary club-based program - it's the state training centre for elites - but they have recently started offering regular club levels as well. They told me they'd love to do an assessment but I should discuss it with her current club first - they don't want to get all the local clubs offside by being in competition with them for clients.
DD is always eager to get into the gym and always comes out grinning and complaining the class was too short, so I have no fear of inappropriate behaviour out of my sight - but I'm still not fond of the "parent be gone" practice. Tonight I actually asked why and was told it's because it's less distracting for the girls and they don't want different rules for different ages when they're in the gym at the same time.

 

[emorymom]

Yes, I would get her evaluated at the other centre.

And/or, schedule a private with her instructor that you will be allowed to watch.

I would not have my 5 year old in a class I couldn't watch. Even if I didn't think it was a safety issue (e.g., emotional .... need a sense of how coaching goes) I'm tired of paying for "excellent" fantastically acclaimed programs that cost me hundreds of dollars before I figured out that they didn't hold my child to any standards and she was learning 10% of what she was capable of enjoying learning. I've not had that happen in gymnastics, but in other works.

 

[Mack_the_Ripper]

At my gym, all recreational classes recieve 3-month checkoff charts, with the skills for each level listed and checked as "mastered", "attempts", "attempts with help", and "does not attempt." The chart also specified which level the child should be enrolled in during the next trimester.

But I'm confused as to why you're so concerned with recieving reports about your daughter's progress? Why can't you ask your daughter what she's learning and if she's having fun? Also, why is progress so important to you? You say that you're not paying for your child to just have fun...but I don't see any investment in your daughter making progress any more than your daugher persuing something she enjoys, which she is doing now anyway. Low-level gymnastics can be fulfullng a well as high-level gymnastics, and perhaps even better for a young child, as low-level gymnastics will not require time and focus that a young child may not take well.

 

[Bobby]

...Why can't you ask your daughter what she's learning and if she's having fun? Also, why is progress so important to you? You say that you're not paying for your child to just have fun...but I don't see any investment in your daughter making progress any more than your daugher persuing something she enjoys, which she is doing now anyway....

When I ask what she's learning she usually answers "back flips". My best favourite was when she claimed she did cartwheels with no hands on the beam. I suspect she may be somewhat exaggerating her progress.
I guess I'm mindful that children are more likely to maintain interest/enjoyment in a sport when they are progressing at it.
And if I wasn't spending money on gym I could be buying more/better toys she might have lots of fun with.

 

[Aussie_coach]

But I'm confused as to why you're so concerned with recieving reports about your daughter's progress? Why can't you ask your daughter what she's learning and if she's having fun? Also, why is progress so important to you? You say that you're not paying for your child to just have fun...but I don't see any investment in your daughter making progress any more than your daugher persuing something she enjoys, which she is doing now anyway. Low-level gymnastics can be fulfullng a well as high-level gymnastics, and perhaps even better for a young child, as low-level gymnastics will not require time and focus that a young child may not take well.

Because she lives in Australia, in this country to ever make it to the olympics you basically have to be selected between 4-6 years of age. Not just any coach or any gym will take a child to that level. There are only a few elite gyms in the whole country. If you are not selected by age 6, you train in the national levels program which has no lead to international competition. What you do at the age of 5 does matter here.

 

[gymnut1]

Because she lives in Australia, in this country to ever make it to the olympics you basically have to be selected between 4-6 years of age. Not just any coach or any gym will take a child to that level. There are only a few elite gyms in the whole country. If you are not selected by age 6, you train in the national levels program which has no lead to international competition. What you do at the age of 5 does matter here.

How weird - Good job Beth Tweddle didn't live there. She didn't start till she was 7. Can you imagine missing out on her talent and achievement for your country because of such a strange system. While I appreciate that you are up against it reaching elite levels if you start at 9 or 10, 7 to 8 isn't too old to start if you have bags of natural talent.

Aussie coach is there no cross over for girls who blossom later? Do you have girls at the top of your national levels program who SHOULD cross over? We have a challenge cup system where gymnasts who missed the 'in age' boat can get to the British Championships at a later age.

 

[Aussie_coach]

The other gym isn't an ordinary club-based program - it's the state training centre for elites - but they have recently started offering regular club levels as well. They told me they'd love to do an assessment but I should discuss it with her current club first - they don't want to get all the local clubs offside by being in competition with them for clients.
DD is always eager to get into the gym and always comes out grinning and complaining the class was too short, so I have no fear of inappropriate behaviour out of my sight - but I'm still not fond of the "parent be gone" practice. Tonight I actually asked why and was told it's because it's less distracting for the girls and they don't want different rules for different ages when they're in the gym at the same time.

This is understandable. When a gymnasts goes to the state training centre they must remain a member of a regular club. This is the only way a gymnast can train and compete. If they come from outside of a gymnastics club they must enroll in a separate gymnastics club. This does not mean that they will have anything to do with their club, they will train only at the state centre. But when they compete they will have their original club recognized.

The state centre can't do anything to upset the gym clubs because they rely only the gym clubs to support their programs. What we do as coaches/clubs is choose our best athletes (4-5 years old athletes that is) and send them to be evaluated by and if they are selected to train at the state training centre. The State centre can't afford to lose their support.

 

[Aussie_coach]

How weird - Good job Beth Tweddle didn't live there. She didn't start till she was 7. Can you imagine missing out on her talent and achievement for your country because of such a strange system. While I appreciate that you are up against it reaching elite levels if you start at 9 or 10, 7 to 8 isn't too old to start if you have bags of natural talent.

Aussie coach is there no cross over for girls who blossom later? Do you have girls at the top of your national levels program who SHOULD cross over? We have a challenge cup system where gymnasts who missed the 'in age' boat can get to the British Championships at a later age.

Our system has to work the way it does because of the size of our population, we have only 20 million people in the country and gymnastics is not a popular sport. Swimming is the sport of Australian, every single kid does swimming. We don't have a lot of gyms or a lot of coaches who are capable of training athletes to international levels. So we have to have a few specialist training centre's where we can put the top coaches and top gymnasts.

There are exceptions, some kids do start later and are discovered for their natural talent, and trained to success. But it is very rare. We have a separate set of levels called the International Development program, which is used at these training centre's. All these levels have a maximum age and the kids must have that skill level by that age. If they start doing the IDP program from the beginning they do all right. But if they start at the national program they are usually getting further and further behind every year. So the chances of being accepted become almost impossible.