Parents How do you know when a gym is dysfunctional?

[Ms.Pak-Man]

Dysfunctional enough to move on/change gyms, anyway [emoji14]? I realize the grass is rarely greener somewhere else. I guess I'm trying to sort out if the dysfunction warrants pulling my child (8 years old, lvl 4) away from her friends. Looking first at safety, the gymnast to coach ratio doubled from last year. From 7:1 to 25:2. She could be having problems (coaches say she isn't coachable) b/c that ratio is not the best for her learning style. There is very little spotting/hands on shaping going on (I try to watch about 1 practice a month) compared to lvl 3. Same coaches, just double the kids. Second issue I am having is lack of communication. I figured everything was all rainbows and unicorns until I approached about progress 3/4 through the competition season and was told she wasn't coachable. I would have liked some sort of "lets work through this together coach and parent to see why she has stopped progressing to her potential." I was only told they can't motivate her and that was it. I knew only that she wasn't progressing quite as quickly, but figured she's still fairly young and frankly she was talented enough that she didn't have to work hard in lvls 2 and 3. Lvl 4 is hard. She was still w/in range for her peer group at gym, esp being the youngest by about 6-7 months. I really was shocked they would label her as such after 4 months of struggling. Now she's no angel. And I get the frustration telling her a billion times to do something different to no avail, but she no longer gets their attention, either, sort of like they aren't going to bother with her until/if she fixes certain skills/makes corrections. So added to this there is a history of this gym sending passive aggressive e-mails to entire team to shirk responsibility for various issues. They get defensive and won't take responsibility for any of their own shortcomings. No one is perfect. They are accountable to no one, tho, as a parent you learn to keep quiet or be talked about behind your back. One of her coaches has even spoken poorly about one of the teammates and her mother to me, in an unprofessional manner. They call this mother names behind her back to other parents and staff. Openly. So mostly the parents at the gym know all this and tolerate it. Other weird stuff: owner asking a parent to spy on a group of moms, HC swearing a parent to secrecy regarding something that was just a privilege for her child, lest it incite the parents. It was something that I feel the gym should have been open about b/c that child should have been able to share that experience with her friends. Not hide it. Anyway, that's all normal, right??? Other gyms have this kind of stuff going on, or no? B/c if the grass is truly greener I should probably consider a move. I don't want to have negative gym vibes all the time.

 

[MILgymFAM]

That's a list of things that would make someone consider leaving, for sure. You're still there, so what does the other list look like? The one with the good stuff that keeps you coming back?

 

[Ms.Pak-Man]

Well they have good coaching at the optional level. Best probably in the state, esp for your "average" optional. She would maybe be lvl 6 starting with those coaches as early as this Summer, worst case she'd have another year until optionals and the better coaches. Really that's the only good right now. The optional coaches yell quite a bit but that I don't judge. My child doesn't respond to warm and fuzzy. She walks all over warm and fuzzy. I believe 100% her coaches have the right to be frustrated with her. In their eyes she is the embodiment of "talent that doesn't work hard" and that's annoying for coaches and parents alike. When I speak to her it's like she doesn't understand what they are asking her to do, like how to fix something. Reality is it's probably a bit of both their frustration and time constraints and her giving up b/c she's not getting it as easy as it came before. Hard to fall from the top sometimes but I feel it's good for her. Life lessons. BUT, they are not navigating this (or don't have the time) in the right way for her to persevere. And no communication with us until it got bad.

 

[Ms.Pak-Man]

Should have said "different" not "better" coaches. I don't feel her coaches are bad at all. It's other things I've mentioned. Well and my kid needs the hands on her to feel the correction. Or more drills at least.

 

[Ms.Pak-Man]

Oh, thought of another positive, very little to no favoritism. All coaches pay fairly equal attention to all kids across the program (having some issues a bit now on lvl 4 but by and large it could be heaps worse).

 

[Gymmommy71]

8 year old L4 is young. How many hours is she going and how long has she been doing team gym? An 8 year old having issues progressing to the point the coaches are using the term "uncoachable" almost sounds a bit like it could be the start of burn out to me. Or she just may not really like gymnastics all that much. When she was in L3, waa it a similar environment, or were things different? Maybe it's something about this group dynamic/particular set of coaches that's making her complacent.

That stuff they say about that one mom and asking parents to spy on other parents = very unprofessional. Is this a young coaching staff?

 

[munchkin3]

I'm sorry to hear your dd is having troubles. The unmotivated rut really sucks and it seems it happens right about 3/4 through the season. Assuming your season is September-December..
As far as ratio, you our gym is well within the acceptable range, 12.5 to 1. This is definitely not ideal for some kids or parents, but it's what you have. I switched from a small program to a larger one and even though the ratio was smaller, the coaches ignored certain kids.
After many years of gymnastics, it is common for kids to go from being 'noticed' to ignored many times. You need to teach your dd that this is common. I'm not condoning it, or saying it is normal, but it does happen.
I have always taken a very practical position on this, and I have talked about this at length with my gymmies.....
Coach has 15 kids, some are very easy to coach, some are normal girls who chat but work, some don't want to be there and waste time. Some that are downright disruptive. The same coach must get all 15 up to snuff.....maybe ? the coach is under a lot of pressure to win..........he/she has limited time per event. I also throw in, our coach is in his 50s and he has limited physical abilities in spotting.....his arm or shoulder will be hurting by the end of practice. Who do you think the coach is going to use most of his time with? Who will get the most out of the coach's teachings? Can he waste time with the kids who are not receptive?
I ask my kids, which kid do you want to be? My dd is pretty honest and likes to chat, but work.......its up to her.
My son was downright disruptive for a period of time, but it was my job to find out why.....the coach had enough to worry about than to psychologically analyze my child. His job was to coach, not figure my kid out.....
My point here is, if the coaches are having trouble with your daughter, you need to figure out why. Their job is to coach efficiently and effectively. If a kid is not willing to take the corrections, then so be it.
If they were being mean, of abusive, or using profanity, then I would have an issue. The spotting issue is annoying.......but there are limited number of hands, so nothing can be done there.
As far as the communication? Sounds pretty standard.....privileges to certain kids- standard......I think your gym sounds mildly dysfunctional.....the 3 gyms I have had experience with are dysfunctional.
My advice is to sit down with your dd and have a heart to heart. Only she can be the gymnast she wants to be.......if her performance improves she should begin to get noticed again.

 

[my4buffaloes]

If I were you I would be looking. Yes the gym seems dysfunctional for sure. However, I would be looking more because of how they now think of your dd. I imagine she is getting lost in the shuffle and needs a bit more direct, hands on coaching than she is now getting. That doesn't make her uncoachable. it just means that the current coaching technique is not fitting for her right now. That is why I would look for a new gym. Best in the state in optionals doesn't mean anything if your dd will be stuck at level 3 and 4 forever because she isn't getting what she needs.

 

[munchkin3]

If I were you I would be looking. Yes the gym seems dysfunctional for sure. However, I would be looking more because of how they now think of your dd. I imagine she is getting lost in the shuffle and needs a bit more direct, hands on coaching than she is now getting. That doesn't make her uncoachable. it just means that the current coaching technique is not fitting for her right now. That is why I would look for a new gym. Best in the state in optionals doesn't mean anything if your dd will be stuck at level 3 and 4 forever because she isn't getting what she needs.

The only issue I disagree with 'how they think about the child' part. I have found that the kids who go from ignored or undesirable behavior, to receptive hardworking kids get the MOST praise. I have seen many kids turn a corner (or many corners) and go from the type of behavior the OP is describing, to top of the class. It takes a combination of parents AND coaches, but a parent cant approach a coach and blame the kids behavior on the coach or program....this will not help the child. If the coaches feel the child's attitude is addressed at home, then they can also make some changes in the gym to help out...but if the brunt of the 'attitude change' lies on the coach, don't expect much. There is only so much they can do and moving gyms does nothing to solve the deeper root of the problem.....why is the child unmotivated?

If the child needs a smaller program, then that is a valid reason to move. Some programs are boring.....reason to move....But chances a small compulsory program wont have the number in the high levels.....its a tough spot to be in. The red flags to me are leaving kids unattended, profanity, mental abuse, belligerence...OP is in a tough spot.....

My point was the dysfunction seems pretty normal..(unfortunately).........its what kind of dysfunction works for you and your child.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Aren't they all to one degree or another.

We all have baggage, the trick is to find the folks whose baggage works with yours, and to get stowed neatly in the overhead compartment or under the seat in front of you.

The talking about parents and gymmies from the coaches wouldn't work for me. Its bad enough when the parents behave like that.

 

[Sasha]

Hm, well everyone has their own experiences and tolerances, but most of what you describe sounds pretty common-place in gym to me. I consider our coaches, for example, to be wonderful people in a generally solid program, yet as a "gym environment", I could privately point to similar instances of everything you mentioned, with the one exception of the blanket "she's not coachable" statement. Though it may have happened here, I have personally seen kids who were 'difficult' to coach (but talented) have coaches and parents conferencing to at least try to work through the issues. I suppose it's possible someone was 'written off' and I just never knew, but the only thing in your post that actually stood out as a 'problem' (because the other drama and such is so common) was that part. If my kid was not giving it her all over some time, just not listening, etc, and I knew it, I would come down hard on her and have firm consequences, personally. 8 is old enough. But along with that, I'd want to be in sync with the coach on what messages we were giving her, what expectations we were setting for her and making sure she understands clear goals and boundaries, and feedback from coach to know if she was improving at all, their plans for her and consequences if she did not improve in focus/attention/attitude/whatever it was. If the coaches would not work with me on that, and just left it at "uncoachable, too bad, end of story" then my fear there would be a slow trainwreck culminating in an inevitable quitting.

 

[Ms.Pak-Man]

Thanks so much for your feedback <3. I feel so alone in this so I really appreciate it. So yes, we are addressing the issue at home, now that we know about it :/. We have had several discussions on how gymnastics at her level (JO "Team") you have to progress, that it is a privilege to do gymnastics and a certain level of effort is required for mom and dad to continue to pay for gymnastics and drive you to gymnastics. For the record, tho, I think she puts in at least 80% effort, but coaches know she is capable of more. She also does TOPs and does very well in the TOPs classes, she often scores higher than lvl 6s in physical abilities. So part of me wonders if they are badly wanting her to apply her strengths to skills but she isn't mentally/developmentally capable (she's in 2nd grade). I know some 8 year olds are able to, but my 8 year old may not have reached that developmental milestone yet. This has only been going on since the start of lvl 4. Lvl 2 and 3 they had zero complaints about her and it's a tough program. But the ratio was 7:1. So I think that has to be part of it. Should also mention it's not a behavior thing. She is not disrespectful, does not cheat at conditioning, etc. You get sent home for that so I'd know. She chats some, but the program is strict in not letting kids get off task. She does 14h/wk. She is in absolute love with the sport, otherwise we'd be done in a heartbeat. Crazy expensive and we are not wealthy. I did ask her last week how she'd feel if she didn't do gymnastics anymore and she started balling because she thought we were making her quit. She has never once not wanted to go to practice, or a meet, or anything related to gymnastics, lol. She is definitely not burnt out, as far as she feels anyway. We have always given her the option to stay home from a practice if she feels she needs a break. She has yet to take us up on that offer. She's the kind of kid that needs to move. She often comes home from 4hrs of gym and gets on her bike to ride around neighborhood.

 

[Sasha]

For the record, tho, I think she puts in at least 80% effort, but coaches know she is capable of more. She also does TOPs and does very well in the TOPs classes, she often scores higher than lvl 6s in physical abilities. So part of me wonders if they are badly wanting her to apply her strengths to skills but she isn't mentally/developmentally capable (she's in 2nd grade). I know some 8 year olds are able to, but my 8 year old may not have reached that developmental milestone yet. This has only been going on since the start of lvl 4. Lvl 2 and 3 they had zero complaints about her and it's a tough program. But the ratio was 7:1. So I think that has to be part of it. Should also mention it's not a behavior thing. She is not disrespectful, does not cheat at conditioning, etc. You get sent home for that so I'd know. She chats some, but the program is strict in not letting kids get off task. She does 14h/wk. She is in absolute love with the sport, otherwise we'd be done in a heartbeat.

So given all of this, the remaining concern is whether the coaches are still willing to work with her and have a plan for her, or if they have 'given up' on her. I can't think of any other way to get to the bottom of the "uncoachable" statement than to have a scheduled, private, face to face meeting and resolve together.

I would start with, "Hi coach, I took to heart the statement you made about Susie being 'uncoachable' right now, and we have been having talks at home about putting in the required effort. I am very grateful for your honesty, and am receptive to all feedback on her progress, and any barriers to her progress. You have my support. I would like to work together to understand the issues she is having, your thoughts and process for working with her, and how I can support you."

Then see what they have to say, and if it seems like they are taking reasonable steps, or if they have written her off. If the former, then ask if you can check in periodically, or what would be appropriate, to gauge if she is giving what is expected or not. If the latter, time to seek another gym.

 

[Muddlethru]

Your initial post and the reason you posted this thread was to express discontent and concerns about your daughter's current gym. Your posts following tends to defend that same gym. Switching is tough for everyone involved so I can see the need to somewhat defend the gym. All we can do is speculate on what the real issues are, if they can be remedied etc. Short of having a discussion with your coach(es), and trusting your gut instinct, it is hard to get a true reading on your situation. That said, your current gym sound very much like my daughter's former gym sans the "good coaches" which at the time we were at the gym we believed to be true (but found out later they were really not good, bordering on bad coaches both in training and just not very nice people,-I am trying to be kind here).

Your daughter is currently Level 3 and going on Level 4, if you have all those concerns you listed above at this early stage and not having been at the gym that long, my personal opinion and experience dictates to move away from the gym. The coach/gymnast ratio is too high, they've already given up on your daughter by saying she is "not coachable" (not a motivational tactic really) not even attempting to tell you what they've tried, how you can help or what can be done, shirking responsibilities, the ridiculous emails, asking parents to spy, the secrets, pitting kids and parents against each other (you did not mention this, but this will likely happen if it is not already), calling people names. Every gym has its own set of problems, but you still can find greener pastures if you are willing to do your research. Good luck.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

Ok, unless she's hanging from the rafters and constantly being kicked out for disrespectful behavior, I take great issue with an 8 year old second grader being called uncoachable. That is a really strong word. It sounds to me like they have given up on her if that is the way they talk about her. That alone would be enough to look for a new gym.

 

[Sara]

As a coach I would never say someone is "not coachable." I think that is one of the worst things you can tell a child. It would be like telling a student that he/she is stupid. If you are looking for reasons to stay I would suggest leaving. At this level and in the TOPs program another gym with smaller ratios could be exactly what she needs. Sometimes the grass is greener and I am all about doing what's best for the child. Good luck it's a tough decision to make.

 

[LJL07]

Gyms are very hard....I concur with @Sasha tha some of what you describe is commonplace sadly. And sometimes there just aren't a ton of good options available.
But a level 4 8 yr old being uncoachable gives me pause. And I also agree that is a very high kid to coach ratio.

 

[sevenatenine2]

I use the term uncoachable fairly regularly with my older athletes, but I make sure they know what it means and what I mean by it first.

Example

"Okay, Kid X, lets work beam choreo."

"I want to change my poses. I'm tired of doing the same ones."

"Okay, let's take out this pose and put in this one."

"I can't do that."

"Try."

"No, I'm sure I can't. It's too hard."

"Kid X, kid y is waiting for her turn while you are wasting time being uncoachable. You may try the things I'm asking you to do, or sit out a while."


I use it as an adjective, but I never mean it as a permanent condition---just a behavior. (My own child is one of the worst at this, so don't take it personally.)

 

[Deleted member D3987]

when the toilets don't work...

 

[Gymbee06]

when the toilets don't work...

Good job we left our last gym then! (Although this wasn't the reason) lol