WAG Injury Petition to Regionals

[Muddlethru]

I'm not sure I'm quite understanding. I don't understand what is wrong with a gymnast who has been injured petitioning to Regionals. Even if their injury is better, if it limited their training time and they are not back to full speed, that's the purpose of petitions correct?

From my understanding of athletes doing this in the past, it is not difficult to get a dr's note anyway. I could take my child to the dr right now and say her heels are killing her and could you write a note saying no tumbling for 2 weeks. If I needed that and I had a friend who was a doctor and they were willing to spare me the trip, what's the big deal?

I know of several 9/10 athletes on our team this year that did a few events and petitioned to regionals. None of them had major injuries. Some were coming back from minor sprains, another had a sore knee, one tweaked something at the meet. The coaches didn't feel like it was worth the risk to compete and possibly be too injured to finish the season. Could they have competed if necessary? Yes. I don't think that is unethical.

I also know of a girl who had a very bad ankle sprain that took a very long time to heal (close to a year). It limited her a lot. At state that year the plan was to take it event by event. Because she didn't have the numbers due to the injury, her consistency was questionable. This is a kid who made JO Nationals the 2 previous years. I thought the petitioning rules were for the best interest of the kids who might not be 100% in March, but ready in April and May.

When you explain it that way, it does seem logical. And I have no problms with that. But to quote the story I heard verbatim, the gymnast told my daughter that "the coach went to her (the gmnast) and said, "if you don't do well at states, I will have Mrs. ____________write you a note so you will definitely go to regionals". We know Mrs. ___________ is a doctor, so no elaboration was needed. I only mentioned the heel injury because a month ago the gymnast said she hit her heel on the beam and it is sore. Again, the gymnast did not even go to a doctor and told my daughter a month ago it was no big deal and has not complained about it since. I was giving both the coach and the gymnast the benefit of the doubt by assuming she did have some kind of injury, minor or otherwise for the coach to make that statement. We are no longer at the gym, so I do not even know if she was injured or her training was hampered. But I would like to think that she was slighlty injured and that it may have hampered her training somewhat for the coach to make that suggestion. I don't wish the gymnast any ill will just hoping the situation is legit.

It is a different story if you know you would make it to regionals if it were not for the injury or illness. But trying to by pass state because you are not sure you will make it to regionals is certainly a different story. Anyway, that's their deal. It is not something I would do but que sera sera.

 

[iwannacoach]

I feel the option to petition needs to observe a very strict line. Illness that keeps a child out of the gym for a week leaving only one week to train and get ready sounds fair. An injury that keeps a child off equipment for a week or more and another week of easing back into it, well that sounds pretty fair to me as long as the kid has only a week left to get it together. Injuries that have sidelined a kid who's who's been training for two weeks..... well if a doctor has cleared the kid to train, she's no longer injured.

The conversation seems to be heading in the direction of any 35+ kid who's injured and needs healing should expect a petition to be granted. The question I'd like to pose, is when is the injury/recovery relevant...... in the last month..... 2 months, or all the way back to the earliest meet of the season?....... because each of those injuries has an effect on how things go the rest of the season.

I think the intent of the petition process is to ensure the well qualified kids that would reasonably qualify for regionals still get there if a legitimate injury or illness takes them out of the "game."

 

[gymmomtoo]

Do different regions have different rules?? Because here if you compete all four events at State, you can NOT petition to Regionals. If you are able to compete at State, you shouldn't have the opportunity to petition to Regionals if you don't do well. It's the nature of competition that you have to do well in playoffs--and isn't that what State, Regionals, etc. are?

 

[LMV]

Now, we were in this team for several years and the mothers are very helpful and they often give prescription whenever the coach asks. These parents are very close to the head coaches. The head coaches have even told me if I needed anything, these two mothers will gladly give a prescription. Of course writing a prescription and feigning an injury to gain unfair advantage are to different stories. in addition, this is a story that came from an 11 year old and told to another 11 year old. Something may have gotten lost in the translation both coming from the coach, the mother's gymnast perhaps or just misunderstood by the gymnast and maybe exaggerated by my daughter. Nonetheless, does this type scenario happen? Can gyms and gymnasts get away with stuff like this?

This is disturbing. I say this as a mom. I say this as a physician. Ethically I think we should all refrain from practicing medicine outside of established patient relationships (outside of addressing life threatening situations that do sometimes crop up in random fashion in every day life) because without full knowledge of all elements of the situation our advice may actually end up being inappropriate and dangerous. Legally, I know that in the five states I'm licensed in it is a violation to write any prescription for someone I do not have some form of a chart on that supports the medical necessity of my the prescription. Even if we take ethics out of situation I find it surprising that a physician would willingly put their medical license in danger to facilitate their daughter's climb into the inner circle of the gym.


I'm not sure of all of the rules regarding petitioning into regionals because our daughter has never been in a situation where this would be relevant to her situation. However, common sense tells me that if a gymnast competes at the L9 state meet yet fails to qualify to regionals they should not be eligible to injury petition in unless they were injured during the competition and did not finish the competition. Our daughter did miss her L9 state meet in 2011 because we had a family conflict with the state meet. I will admit that at the time I had heard about petitioning into regionals on this forum and I did inquire about how a gymnast became eligible (because if having a family conflict with the state meet had met the criteria I would have let her attempt to petition). Someone quickly pointed out that this was intended for athletes who were injured and I put the thought aside. So, she ended her L9 season a bit early but used the extra training time to her advantage and went on and did very well at her L10 state meet the next year and qualified for regionals (and later nationals).

 

[LMV]

I hope that it is a mis understanding and that a doctor isn't going to lie.

But... I see no reason why a parent/doctor shouldn't write a prescription. If they see the person, understand what is wrong and then write a prescription how is that different from them seeing a patient in their office (except that they weren't paid)? I have a friend who is a doctor. She wrote my daughter a prescription for pink eye medicine when we needed it. She was at my house, agreed that was the problem and I was able to start treatment on a Saturday instead of having to have it go through our family due to being untreated for the entire weekend. I just don't see how something like that is a concern. And I imagine that the parents at the gym are the same type of thing - the kid is on say... a prescription allergy medicine and needs a refill. What is the harm in the parent who can see that the kid is having allergy problems writing the prescription instead of the kid having to go to the doctor, thus taking time and money?

A few thoughts:
-Most state licensing boards frown on physicians writing prescriptions for those in their immediate family. Some specifically forbid it outright. Others forbid it outright with controlled substances and others define specific situations where it is and is not alright. I've always just not done it as regardless of the legality I don't feel it is ethically appropriate.
-Most state licensing boards have issues with prescribing without some form of a chart that documents the medical necessity of the prescription.
-Failing to bill for services provided can actually be construed as fraud unless you practice in the same way across all scopes and aspects of practice.
-There is some degree of monitoring required with all prescriptions so refilling a prescription written by another physician without actually making sure the refill is safe and appropriate can be dangerous. Clearly this will be more dangerous with some prescriptions than others. Perhaps the risk is almost negligible with other prescriptions but there is still some inherent risk with this practice regardless.

 

[Granny Smith]

I just want to clarify that the doctor is not writing a prescription for a petition. All the doctor is doing is saying what is wrong with the gymnast and when their expected date of return to gymnastics is. Again, I don't think there is anything legally wrong with this, but I do question the ethics of the said doctors who are just doing this as a favor.

I also disagree with those who say if you compete at States that you shouldn't be able to petition into Regionals. That's why the rule states if you compete all 4 events at States, you can't petition in. Girls get hurt at meets, some minor, others major and States is no exception so if you get hurt at the meet, can't finish and meet all of the requirements for the petition then you should be allowed to petition in.

 

[wallflower]

I feel the option to petition needs to observe a very strict line. Illness that keeps a child out of the gym for a week leaving only one week to train and get ready sounds fair. An injury that keeps a child off equipment for a week or more and another week of easing back into it, well that sounds pretty fair to me as long as the kid has only a week left to get it together. Injuries that have sidelined a kid who's who's been training for two weeks..... well if a doctor has cleared the kid to train, she's no longer injured.

The conversation seems to be heading in the direction of any 35+ kid who's injured and needs healing should expect a petition to be granted. The question I'd like to pose, is when is the injury/recovery relevant...... in the last month..... 2 months, or all the way back to the earliest meet of the season?....... because each of those injuries has an effect on how things go the rest of the season.

I think the intent of the petition process is to ensure the well qualified kids that would reasonably qualify for regionals still get there if a legitimate injury or illness takes them out of the "game."

I agree and I think that is up to each individual coach to decide. Certainly at this level a large part of their job is keeping their athletes safe and healthy.

 

[wallflower]

When you explain it that way, it does seem logical. And I have no problms with that. But to quote the story I heard verbatim, the gymnast told my daughter that "the coach went to her (the gmnast) and said, "if you don't do well at states, I will have Mrs. ____________write you a note so you will definitely go to regionals". We know Mrs. ___________ is a doctor, so no elaboration was needed. I only mentioned the heel injury because a month ago the gymnast said she hit her heel on the beam and it is sore. Again, the gymnast did not even go to a doctor and told my daughter a month ago it was no big deal and has not complained about it since. I was giving both the coach and the gymnast the benefit of the doubt by assuming she did have some kind of injury, minor or otherwise for the coach to make that statement. We are no longer at the gym, so I do not even know if she was injured or her training was hampered. But I would like to think that she was slighlty injured and that it may have hampered her training somewhat for the coach to make that suggestion. I don't wish the gymnast any ill will just hoping the situation is legit.

It is a different story if you know you would make it to regionals if it were not for the injury or illness. But trying to by pass state because you are not sure you will make it to regionals is certainly a different story. Anyway, that's their deal. It is not something I would do but que sera sera.

Thanks for explaining further. I know here you can NOT compete all 4 events and then petition. Perhaps it is different in your region or maybe some facts of the story are wrong, not intentionally, just misunderstood.

In our state it's a 34 to make it to regionals and almost everyone gets that. We just had level 9/10 state and only a few in each age group didn't get a 34. State here is not seen as a big deal since most girls are for sure going to make it to regionals.

In the case where you are no longer at the gym and really don't know first hand the specifics of the situation, I just wouldn't worry. It's not like someone who doesn't have the capabilities to make regionals is going to snag a spot to Nationals. Well I guess that depends on where you live actually. Our region is super competitive and you need a higher 37 usually to make top 7. I always forget that other regions sometimes don't even have 7 girls in all age groups.

 

[sportyfam5]

I thought if you actually compete at state then you lose your right to petition...

This makes sense. I can see petitioning to regionals if you are too injured to perform at state meet. However, if you are well enough to perform then you shouldn't be able to petition.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

lol. it's done all the time!

 

[Canadian_gym_mom]

lol. it's done all the time!

I hope you are referring to the petition for regionals, and not the parent doctors writing scrips for gymnasts at the request of the coach.

 

[3rd_time_around]

Most of you are missing the point. This post is not about a dr/mom writing a prescription. Our gym has a dad/dr and he will do this as a favor to save us money of a dr office visit. That is besides the point. This is about LYING to get an advantage, and such lie being promoted by the coach and teaching little girls that if they mess up or don't get the results they want, that it's ok to lie to get your way or to circumvent the system. There is a legitimate way and reasons for petitioning to regionals, and those who need it should be able to and rightly so. Bit for a coach to tell a girl that if she doesn't do well at state, he will lie, have her lie, and have the dr lie by making up an injury and petitioning to regionals. That is wrong, no matter how you look at it. What if the liar goes to regionals and bumps a legitimate competitor to first alternate, and the cheater then gets to go to Nationals? How would you feel if your daughter was the one who got bumped to 1st alternate and missed out on that honor and opportunity by a liar and cheater? not everyone at level 9/10 earns a 34.00. I'd be so disappointed if my DD had a bad meet at state and missed the chance to go to regionals, but that is life. I'm not going to let her or anyone else lie for her. She didn't perform like she should have and didn't meet the requirements and that is her own fault and that is the way it goes.This is what this thread is about, not about a dr writing a prescription without an office visit. Frankly, I wouldn't trust a dr who would lie and legitimize a fake injury. I'm disgusted at the OP's coach not only for doing these kinds of things, but also for promoting it among his gymnasts something to do to get around the rules. In other words, lie and cheat to promote yourself.

 

[iwannacoach]

This is about LYING to get an advantage, and such lie being promoted by the coach and teaching little girls that if they mess up or don't get the results they want, that it's ok to lie to get your way or to circumvent the system. There is a legitimate way and reasons for petitioning to regionals, and those who need it should be able to and rightly so........GAgymmom

You knocked that one right out of the "ball park." I think strategically "sitting one out" is one circumstance where I would use the word "Loser" to any person in this sport, and that goes for the coach, parent, and doctor. The child in the story is too young to place blame on, but the adults pretty much just said "We suck at this, so we cheat!", and all I can hope for is the community agrees with them and supports their implied conclusion.

Just to clarify. This is all taking place at the "old gym" the op took her daughter out of earlier this year.

 

[krisnkids]

My question is from what I have read that something like the top 8 from each age group at states receive the invitation to go to regionals. So when 'Suzie' who is 13, sits out level 9 states (for whatever reason) and petitions to go to regionals, if her petition is approved, do they take 9 girls in the age group 13? Or does one of the girls who worked her but off and originally made it to regionals get booted to the side?

 

[Canadian_gym_mom]

Most of you are missing the point. This post is not about a dr/mom writing a prescription. Our gym has a dad/dr and he will do this as a favor to save us money of a dr office visit. That is besides the point. This is about LYING to get an advantage, and such lie being promoted by the coach and teaching little girls that if they mess up or don't get the results they want, that it's ok to lie to get your way or to circumvent the system.

I didn't miss that point, I just think the other point of what was going on is worse in my opinion. The WHOLE situation reeks of dishonesty, deception, cheating, however many words there are. A dark side of gymnastics that I wasn't aware of before.

 

[Ingwe]

My question is from what I have read that something like the top 8 from each age group at states receive the invitation to go to regionals. So when 'Suzie' who is 13, sits out level 9 states (for whatever reason) and petitions to go to regionals, if her petition is approved, do they take 9 girls in the age group 13? Or does one of the girls who worked her but off and originally made it to regionals get booted to the side?

In L9 and L10 anyone who scores a 34.00 or better qualifies for Regionals.

 

[krisnkids]

In L9 and L10 anyone who scores a 34.00 or better qualifies for Regionals.

Oh okay, I misread. Thank you for correcting me.

 

[Natasha]

My question is from what I have read that something like the top 8 from each age group at states receive the invitation to go to regionals. So when 'Suzie' who is 13, sits out level 9 states (for whatever reason) and petitions to go to regionals, if her petition is approved, do they take 9 girls in the age group 13? Or does one of the girls who worked her but off and originally made it to regionals get booted to the side?

Petitions are only allowed in situations where the qualification is a set score. So for L9/L10 you have to have a 34.0 to go to regionals. They do not allow petitions where the qualification is by place ranking. For instance in L7/L8 for Region 8 it is based on placement, so you cannot petition in. If you are sick or injured for state meet you are just out of luck as there really would be no fair way to allow petitions in that situation.

 

[Muddlethru]

The whole situation reeks with dishonesty and impropriety; from the coach asking a parent doctor to write a false verification, to the doctor writing one. And as is evident in the gymnast's entire year performance and at the state meet, the likelihood of her qualifying was pretty slim. And as such, GAgymmom, nationals is unlikely. But I do see the problem if the situation were as you state.

i also think it was important this gymnast make it to regionals since the gym was certain the other L9 was going to make it. But to cover the coaches fees to go to regionals, two gymnasts would be ideal. Last year, the bill to take one girl to L8 regionals with one coach was almost $600. This year, they WILL send at least two coaches, maybe 3, regardless of how many girls qualify. I wish I could explain this but it would be too risky. I'd be very curious if the parent doctor, or which parent doctor, will write the verification. The two possible parent doctors appear to be upstanding citizens.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Petitions are only allowed in situations where the qualification is a set score. So for L9/L10 you have to have a 34.0 to go to regionals. They do not allow petitions where the qualification is by place ranking. For instance in L7/L8 for Region 8 it is based on placement, so you cannot petition in. If you are sick or injured for state meet you are just out of luck as there really would be no fair way to allow petitions in that situation.

not exactly. petition rules are different per region and per level. also, you can petition based on the previous year scores. example, a girl competed in level 9 or 10 regionals/nationals the year before. if the girl posted greater than a 34.00 at the previous year regional/national competition, she can compete in this years regional meet and bypass the state meet. i regret i don't know what ALL the requirements for petition are for all the regions. and you can NEVER qualify to Nationals 9 & 10 by way of petition. it's a rule and not allowed.