Parents Is Competitive Gymnastics different at each club?

[GymParent0]

Hello,

I've found that my child's gymnastics club lacks the competent staff to grow kids to level 6+ and strings people along for profit. For example, the coaches all haven't participated in further than level 6 gymnastics and lack the credentials to teach skills they themselves cannot do. Therefore I'm finding a dilemma in the process as the club seems to be operating more for revenue. The feedback given for advancing to competitive groupings 12-15 hours seems to be justified by who has paid more money, and duration at the club, instead of skillset or potential based assessments. Coaches can pick their favourite kids or families to get more 1 on 1 or be advanced with extra hours. Groups with vast ranges in skillset are made, where many kids cannot even complete Level 1 skills are in the same group as kids ready to complete level 3 or 4 skills. Initially I thought it was to give my kid more attention to correct fine details, but I'm quickly realizing it's quite possibly a club that has no idea what they are doing. Questions about the pathway are often met with non-answers and hostility, to the point where all parents have no idea what the plan is for their kid or what their goals are for the year. This kind of confuses me, because if they're working 9-12 hours per week, there becomes an inflection point where base level conditioning is maxed out and maybe it's time to move onto a gym that can provide a better pathway.

I'm finding that my kid (7 this year) is able to be corrected semi-okay at the Level 1, 2 range but for Level 3 Skills, I'm finding the gym isn't very good. The coaching levels are clearly obvious when you compare the ODP preparedness from some clubs such as “club x” who seem to have their stuff together, and other clubs who's kids last year couldn't even lift themselves over the bar. The kids from Burlington for example, appear to all have the little details corrected, even presenting with smile and the kids fully aware of their expectations to perfection in competition, where as our club, I wonder what actually goes on in terms of appropriate preparation. This opinion of mine can be validated when looking at the club rankings online for last years competitions at each level, where this club barely features at all for any level, and scoring extremely (bottom 10%) at the lower ranks level 3.


My question here is for the experienced parents:

At what age do kids outgrow young and inexperienced coaches with lower level experience?

Is there a greater experience to be had at the clubs turning out athletes in level 7,8,9,10 vs a club that taps out at 6? When does that experience matter?
Is it worth the extra drive to provide your kid an opportunity to reach their full potential?

Thank you for your replies and I'm not writing this to slight the club she's at, but to clearly identify how gymnastics operates. In my mind, a world class chess player doesn't become world class working with recreational players. Families pay good money but most importantly the kids invest a lot of their time. I'm trying to understand gymnastics and how to maximize my child's potential.

 

[GymDadWA]

The majority of gyms in my area have a college aged coach working with the lower levels with a full time head coach or owner that oversees the program.

One thing to remember is that winning ribbons at the lower levels has almost no indication on future success as a gymnast, and if you are worried about a gym being for profit winning ribbons is something they tend to focus on (can't move up until you score a 38 that kind of thing).

At lower levels the gym needs to facilitate a love of gymnastics and healthy environment. The kids with good mental toughness and a good physical makeup for gymnastics will stick with it and develop the strength and technique for harder skills. The kids enjoying it for the moment will still have fun but end us going a different direction but having gained a great experience. Killing the enjoyment out of any sport at lower levels is a great way to see an athlete never reach their potential.

 

[GymParent0]

The majority of gyms in my area have a college aged coach working with the lower levels with a full time head coach or owner that oversees the program.

One thing to remember is that winning ribbons at the lower levels has almost no indication on future success as a gymnast, and if you are worried about a gym being for profit winning ribbons is something they tend to focus on (can't move up until you score a 38 that kind of thing).

At lower levels the gym needs to facilitate a love of gymnastics and healthy environment. The kids with good mental toughness and a good physical makeup for gymnastics will stick with it and develop the strength and technique for harder skills. The kids enjoying it for the moment will still have fun but end us going a different direction but having gained a great experience. Killing the enjoyment out of any sport at lower levels is a great way to see an athlete never reach their potential.

Thanks for your feedback. So it's of your opinion that all gyms operate the same and provide the same foundation? So if X athlete went to X gym with dozens of level 10's and 9's, and the same X athlete went to a gym with 0 level 10's and 9's, that athlete would turn out the same level, same skillset by 9 if they have fun and enjoy gymnastics?

 

[GymDadWA]

For lower level gymnastics often times yes they would end up having a very similar foundation. The drills and what they focus on will be very similar between all gyms, they are mostly developing the correct shapes and developing flexibility.

Higher level gymnastics is different, and the more experienced coaches will matter, but levels 1-3/bronze/silver should be about loving the sport.

 

[GymParent0]

For lower level gymnastics often times yes they would end up having a very similar foundation. The drills and what they focus on will be very similar between all gyms, they are mostly developing the correct shapes and developing flexibility.

Higher level gymnastics is different, and the more experienced coaches will matter, but levels 1-3/bronze/silver should be about loving the sport.

Okay, so at what age/level should a kid who is advancing levels with ease, be finding a gym to suit their goal of being 12 years old, level 9+?

My concern is that my kids gym doesn't turn out anyone at decent level, so if my kid does have that potential, she will be restricted to whatever it is her gym is capable of providing.

I find they don't inform me of a roadmap because of this "fun" element, but ultimately serious clubs will discuss those things and explain the roadmap IMO.

 

[NutterButter]

Sounds like your current gym has a different niche with emphasis on lower levels. It's not bad per se but it is not the best situation for a kid with aspirations of higher levels. The foundations they receive in training may be similar to a gym that produces L10's but there are differences, even now, in drills that will lead to higher level skills...and I'm not convinced that your gym is capable of this. I'm not sure about Canada but in the US, many gyms begin with L4 (or an Xcel transition to DP for optionals). L1-L3 are not required and many gyms cover these foundational levels in pre-team.

If I were in your situation, I would move my DD sooner than later to a gym that has successful L9's and L10's.

Finally - it's common to have young adults teaching lower levels and they may or may not have tons of gymnastics experience. This isn't as big of a concern to be as the fact that your gym caps out at L6.

 

[GymParent0]

Sounds like your current gym has a different niche with emphasis on lower levels. It's not bad per se but it is not the best situation for a kid with aspirations of higher levels. The foundations they receive in training may be similar to a gym that produces L10's but there are differences, even now, in drills that will lead to higher level skills...and I'm not convinced that your gym is capable of this. I'm not sure about Canada but in the US, many gyms begin with L4 (or an Xcel transition to DP for optionals). L1-L3 are not required and many gyms cover these foundational levels in pre-team.

If I were in your situation, I would move my DD sooner than later to a gym that has successful L9's and L10's.

Finally - it's common to have young adults teaching lower levels and they may or may not have tons of gymnastics experience. This isn't as big of a concern to be as the fact that your gym caps out at L6.

Makes sense, I was thinking the same thing. My kid started gymnastics a year ago, walked onto their competitive team when she was 5, turning 6, but it was ODP. She was one of the stronger kids even though most did 2 or 3 years already, but didn't have the flexibility or shaping some of them had. She went on by end of season to be one of or the strongest in the group, the strongest physically for sure.

At this point they've put her in a group with few weaker ones in her second year, but not because of her level but to give extra attention to keeping tight, shaping etc. She's easily picking up skills in level 3 and 4, but not perfect form.

I did recognize that Burlington Gymnastics Club does an exceptional job at ODP, and their kids were more prepared in the things my kid lacked. It's strange because my kid is exceptionally strong, but simply hasn't been doing it as long. Of course if she taps out at certain level, its fine but obviously you want to make the switch with higher ceiling if your kid has the ability to progress quickly.

I agree with you that it makes sense to transition, like playing chess vs checkers. Those Burlington kids at ODP were polished. Honestly, if my kid didn't show an aptitude to have level 8,9,10 strength I would just want her to enjoy and go XCEL route, but tools are there, just need to make sure she doesn't tap out because the gym can't provide the water.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

First... I would ask the mods to edit your post and remove some of the information that may identify you - posters here have came across major issues in the past with posts like this that contain less identifying information.
I feel like what you want and what your club club provides do no align. Some clubs are successful through the levels because they have a curriculum/expectations and even if young coaches are delivering the program it is structured and overseen by more senior coaches - while there may not be individual pathways everyone is on a scripted path and processes for what to do when a child needs something different are in place. It sounds like this style of club (usually bigger clubs) is what you would prefer.

A few points
-Some kids that lack skills may still be in the program because the club does not wish to kick them out/move sideways because they made the wrong call - this is always a challenge in how to approach without upsetting anyone.
-Coaching groups with large skill ranges can still be possible with thoughtful planning however homogeneous groups are easier - especially for coaches with less experience.
-Grouping can be for a number of reasons - skills on certain event, timetable, availability (clubs that are more flexible) form, right coach, ages, friendships etc..
-Extremely talented children will often catch up when they more to a stronger club. Being in a club with a strong culture of success and performance expectations will rub off because that is what those little girls are seeing every day in the gym.

The one thing you haven't mentioned is how your child feels about her gymnastics? Does she want more? Has she got a burning desire to make everything better and learn more? does she love training and practices constantly or is going to training more of a social experience for her?
If you are going to potentially move her - make sure you are moving her because it is what she would want to get more enjoyment out of her gymnastics.

 

[GymParent0]

First... I would ask the mods to edit your post and remove some of the information that may identify you - posters here have came across major issues in the past with posts like this that contain less identifying information.
I feel like what you want and what your club club provides do no align. Some clubs are successful through the levels because they have a curriculum/expectations and even if young coaches are delivering the program it is structured and overseen by more senior coaches - while there may not be individual pathways everyone is on a scripted path and processes for what to do when a child needs something different are in place. It sounds like this style of club (usually bigger clubs) is what you would prefer.

A few points
-Some kids that lack skills may still be in the program because the club does not wish to kick them out/move sideways because they made the wrong call - this is always a challenge in how to approach without upsetting anyone.
-Coaching groups with large skill ranges can still be possible with thoughtful planning however homogeneous groups are easier - especially for coaches with less experience.
-Grouping can be for a number of reasons - skills on certain event, timetable, availability (clubs that are more flexible) form, right coach, ages, friendships etc..
-Extremely talented children will often catch up when they more to a stronger club. Being in a club with a strong culture of success and performance expectations will rub off because that is what those little girls are seeing every day in the gym.

The one thing you haven't mentioned is how your child feels about her gymnastics? Does she want more? Has she got a burning desire to make everything better and learn more? does she love training and practices constantly or is going to training more of a social experience for her?
If you are going to potentially move her - make sure you are moving her because it is what she would want to get more enjoyment out of her gymnastics.

Thanks, yeah I tried to edit but it wouldn't let me.

TBH she is enjoying it and loves the workouts. I think she's a bit bored in this pre-comp stage, not being challenged enough. For example, while waiting for others to be done, she was doing rope climbs to the ceiling and down for fun, if she were being pushed, she would be using that time to rest.

I'd do it on a new season and use this season for the kid to come out of her shell a bit more. I do worry her intensity may be impacted by being in this group, like you said, when you train with better gymnasts, you become better. Same with high level coaches or having goals to achieve other than simply winning her comps this year.

She doesn't really talk to any kids there, which is why I think she was actually put with this group. Socially, she didn't interact much with the coach either, which led to other kids demanding attention more often.

My only worry is if a kid can integrate quickly, jump into the pre-comp and exceed the other kids who have been at it a few years, it sets off a red flag in my mind. In any other professional sport, someone with no experience or similar sporting background can walk in and do better after two years of competitive play unless they are either A) exceptional athletes B) club isnt training well or combination of both.

Last years competitions I was beyond impressed with one or two clubs in particular. It was clear they are good at what they do.

What scares me is that in Canada, quality in sports is put secondary to money or convenience. The results don't matter and that is a slap in the face for any kid that puts their time and effort

 

[rd7]

If your club doesn't have gymnasts above level 6 and is also scoring in the bottom 10% at compulsories I would move clubs. Take her for trials and see how she gets on.

 

[AnotherGymDad]

"The coaches all haven't participated in further than level 6 gymnastics and lack the credentials to teach skills they themselves cannot do ... a world class chess player doesn't become world class working with recreational players."

If you're only willing to have your seven-year-old coached by someone who has competed at the level you believe she is inevitably destined for, you're going to be fishing in a very small pool. And hey, Aimee Boorman never went above high school level as a gymnast, but seemed to be an OK coach. In fact the head coach of the Italian national team is a balding 68-year-old former rugby player who I very much doubt could stick a full-twisting double layout, yet his squad came home from Paris with a silver medal, so...

 

[GymParent0]

If you're only willing to have your seven-year-old coached by someone who has competed at the level you believe she is inevitably destined for, you're going to be fishing in a very small pool. And hey, Aimee Boorman never went above high school level as a gymnast, but seemed to be an OK coach. In fact the head coach of the Italian national team is a balding 68-year-old former rugby player who I very much doubt could stick a full-twisting double layout, yet his squad came home from Paris with a silver medal, so...

You're pointing out anomalies. Let's play the odds here:

Which coach is more likely to produce a level 10 gymnast:

A) coach that produces 3-5 per year out of 24 athletes, 5-10 make level 9, 5-10 make level 8
or
B) coach that produced 0 per year, 0 level 8, 7, and maybe 1 of 24 level 6's.

We are not arguing in reality if we are to believe that kids training with the Junior Marlies AAA Hockey program aren't more likely to make College Hockey or NHL than the Single A program in Owen Sound. Coaches matter. Sure, a great coach can start somewhere small, but the argument you've presented is like suggesting that provincial lotteries have higher odds than blackjack.

I wanted educated opinions from those who have been there, done that, which is why I asked the question here, to see if my thoughts are on the right path. Not to be rude, but if we are playing odds to maximize success, throwing a coin into the wishing well for a future world class coach to take on your kid in a gym without a deep resume is not very realistic.

 

[GymParent0]

If your club doesn't have gymnasts above level 6 and is also scoring in the bottom 10% at compulsories I would move clubs. Take her for trials and see how she gets on.

Yeah, I think this is a good idea. For those in Ontario, how do people rank Oakville, Burlington, Manjaks? If you had to go 1,2,3

 

[Sourkey]

I'm from Ontario but a different part of the province. I would say Oakville, Burlington and Manjaks all have strong reputations but personally I don't know anything about their coaching styles. I don't have experience with ODP either, just OCP. My daughter competed levels 2, 4, 5, 6 and will do 7 this year. Our gym focuses on all the details for lower level compulsories, sometimes even a bit too much, but the girls do well. In your case, I wouldn't necessarily be worried about coaches gymnastics abilities as we had excellent coaches who haven't competed at higher levels. I would be concerned, however, about the lack of clear communication and the lack of gymnasts above level 6.

It seems like you're in a location with many gym options. At your daughter's age, you have lots of time to test out some other gyms. Is she doing ODP or OCP now?

 

[GymParent0]

I'm from Ontario but a different part of the province. I would say Oakville, Burlington and Manjaks all have strong reputations but personally I don't know anything about their coaching styles. I don't have experience with ODP either, just OCP. My daughter competed levels 2, 4, 5, 6 and will do 7 this year. Our gym focuses on all the details for lower level compulsories, sometimes even a bit too much, but the girls do well. In your case, I wouldn't necessarily be worried about coaches gymnastics abilities as we had excellent coaches who haven't competed at higher levels. I would be concerned, however, about the lack of clear communication and the lack of gymnasts above level 6.

It seems like you're in a location with many gym options. At your daughter's age, you have lots of time to test out some other gyms. Is she doing ODP or OCP now?

See this is the problem, they just throw your kid into the pre-comp group and don't give any info about their goals for the year, or what they're doing. I gotta pry it out of them. So I hear "Oh she's doing great, she's going to do well this year" but relative to what and who? So She's OCP this year after ODP last year, but underaged for recording results. She can qualify for ribbons or something this year but her score is silent?

So basically, seeing a lack of high level gymnasts and coaches with limited resumes with kids at higher levels, even if we absolutely love the coach she has now, it's a big question mark if she has the ability to get my kid to level 6 by 9. The strength and flexibility is there, she can do most level 4 things already, so it shouldn't be an issue, but at level 6, what then? and that's where I feel a bit concerned based on the lack of roadmap if you know what I mean?

 

[Sourkey]

See this is the problem, they just throw your kid into the pre-comp group and don't give any info about their goals for the year, or what they're doing. I gotta pry it out of them. So I hear "Oh she's doing great, she's going to do well this year" but relative to what and who? So She's OCP this year after ODP last year, but underaged for recording results. She can qualify for ribbons or something this year but her score is silent?

So basically, seeing a lack of high level gymnasts and coaches with limited resumes with kids at higher levels, even if we absolutely love the coach she has now, it's a big question mark if she has the ability to get my kid to level 6 by 9. The strength and flexibility is there, she can do most level 4 things already, so it shouldn't be an issue, but at level 6, what then? and that's where I feel a bit concerned based on the lack of roadmap if you know what I mean?

My daughter was also underage her first year competing. She was 6, but 7 for competition age. They get medals/ribbons depending on their placement but we never saw her scores.

Level 6 by age 9 is extremely rare in Ontario. It was more common pre-covid. It’s not even a goal for most gyms so I wouldn’t necessarily leave a gym for that reason alone. Looking at last year’s scores, there were about 10 level 6s at 9, and I’m certain some of those girls will be in 6 again this year.

I’d check out the gyms you mentioned above but if you really like your daughter’s coach now, you can always wait until next year.

 

[GymParent0]

My daughter was also underage her first year competing. She was 6, but 7 for competition age. They get medals/ribbons depending on their placement but we never saw her scores.

Level 6 by age 9 is extremely rare in Ontario. It was more common pre-covid. It’s not even a goal for most gyms so I wouldn’t necessarily leave a gym for that reason alone. Looking at last year’s scores, there were about 10 level 6s at 9, and I’m certain some of those girls will be in 6 again this year.

I’d check out the gyms you mentioned above but if you really like your daughter’s coach now, you can always wait until next year.

Absolutely wait til next year or the year after, but the objective is to move up before puberty if you're a girl. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's better to be a second year level 6, working at some events in 7s, than to be closer to 12 where huge growth spurts and puberty impact your muscle memory and ability to complete skills.

I'm not gymnastics expert by any means, but logically it would make sense.

From what I hear, a lot of gyms skip level 5, so if your kid goes to Lvl 4, they will jump to lvl 6. How did your daughters gym go about it?

 

[Sourkey]

Absolutely wait til next year or the year after, but the objective is to move up before puberty if you're a girl. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's better to be a second year level 6, working at some events in 7s, than to be closer to 12 where huge growth spurts and puberty impact your muscle memory and ability to complete skills.

I'm not gymnastics expert by any means, but logically it would make sense.

From what I hear, a lot of gyms skip level 5, so if your kid goes to Lvl 4, they will jump to lvl 6. How did your daughters gym go about it?

I’m not an expert by any means either but my daughter did level 6 at age 10 (age 11 for competition purposes) and she was still on the younger side. There were some super strong girls doing 6 at age 12 and up too. I don’t think they need to rush to 6 at all. Ideally the girls are learning skills that are a higher level than what they’re competing. The only other real benefit I can think of is fear - they develop more fears as they get older.!

Our gym does 5. It’s true that many girls skip it but ours doesn’t. They believe that the skills in level 5 contribute to a stronger foundation. It was frustrating at times seeing lots of girls my daughter competed against in level 4, skip to 6 while she had to do 5, but doing 5 made her a very strong 6.

 

[NutterButter]

Given what you’ve shared about your current gym maxing out at L6 and your desire for her to at least have the opportunity to reach the highest levels you need to be looking into a gym change now or at the very latest, after her current season. From the sounds of things you will not be well served by waiting it out until she’s a L6 there. The reason speaks to your direct point of ‘what then’. The gyms that have an established track record of L9/L10 are already incorporating drills and skills that are building blocks for L9/L10. Your gym doesn’t have to worry about this if they cap out at L6. A concern is that if you wait till she’s 9 or 10 to move her you she will be missing foundations. It also could be more difficult to get on another team as some gyms prefer to raise their athletes up from within.

My advice is to ask for evaluations at all of the top gyms you mentioned. Eyes wide open as you observe interactions between coaches and athletes. Look for the gym that is the best fit for your daughter. If the gym already has success getting kids to L10, don’t focus so much on qualifications of individual coaches.

Lastly, you are correct that puberty impacts gymnasts but this looks different for everyone. For many it’s a time of increased injuries as growing bodies/hormones impact ligaments. For some, other things become more important like social life and dating. And then there are some that suddenly discover that what they are doing is actually very scary. My opinion is that gymnastics doesn’t truly get ‘hard’ until L8. This is the first level where I’ve seen fears pop up among the most fearless. It’s also the first level where the psychological/emotional aspect of the sport becomes more important. I’ve seen plenty of physically talented kids quit after L8. All that to say find a new gym sooner than later that you believe will support your kids goals in a healthy way. As many here will tell you, upper level gymnastics is hard - for the athlete and the entire family.

 

[GymParent0]

Given what you’ve shared about your current gym maxing out at L6 and your desire for her to at least have the opportunity to reach the highest levels you need to be looking into a gym change now or at the very latest, after her current season. From the sounds of things you will not be well served by waiting it out until she’s a L6 there. The reason speaks to your direct point of ‘what then’. The gyms that have an established track record of L9/L10 are already incorporating drills and skills that are building blocks for L9/L10. Your gym doesn’t have to worry about this if they cap out at L6. A concern is that if you wait till she’s 9 or 10 to move her you she will be missing foundations. It also could be more difficult to get on another team as some gyms prefer to raise their athletes up from within.

My advice is to ask for evaluations at all of the top gyms you mentioned. Eyes wide open as you observe interactions between coaches and athletes. Look for the gym that is the best fit for your daughter. If the gym already has success getting kids to L10, don’t focus so much on qualifications of individual coaches.

Lastly, you are correct that puberty impacts gymnasts but this looks different for everyone. For many it’s a time of increased injuries as growing bodies/hormones impact ligaments. For some, other things become more important like social life and dating. And then there are some that suddenly discover that what they are doing is actually very scary. My opinion is that gymnastics doesn’t truly get ‘hard’ until L8. This is the first level where I’ve seen fears pop up among the most fearless. It’s also the first level where the psychological/emotional aspect of the sport becomes more important. I’ve seen plenty of physically talented kids quit after L8. All that to say find a new gym sooner than later that you believe will support your kids goals in a healthy way. As many here will tell you, upper level gymnastics is hard - for the athlete and the entire family.

Thanks, very informative reply. Yeah, I think that'll be the best choice. Must wait til next try-outs but then issue is ensuring there is a place for the age group as you said, most gyms want to develop athletes from within.

I've noticed that also about lvl 8. Even on our little bar at home, my kid could do lvl4 bar things within twenty minutes of attempts where as it's obvious like Mike Tyson says with getting hit in the mouth.. Until your kid falls real hard and has to overcome something, you don't know what they're made of.