Latest gymnastics minute re: Squaring a roundoff w/asymmetrical hurdle

[Geoffrey Taucer]

YouTube - Squaring Off Your Roundoff - Tony Gehman

This seems to go against common wisdom, but it does sort of make sense, and there are certainly several high-level tumblers that do this (Diego Hypolito is the first that jumps to my mind).

Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

in the case of the left round off [reverse for right] sometimes kids will vigorously bring their right arm up 'stronger' than their left. a left round off turns to the right. so, when that right arm comes up 'strong' it causes the body and hip to slightly open to the right. when this happens, and then they go down to the floor with their feet, it causes the left foot to cross over the right or the right to cross behind the left...however you want to say it.

so, when you keep the right arm low and the left arm up, it prevents the right side from getting longer whereby turning the body and the right hip to the right causing the feet to cross over.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I tried this with some of my kids today, and wow, what a difference it makes! It's a completely new one on me, but I think I'll be incorporating this from now on.

 

[CoachGoofy]

It appears to be looking to achieve what a long very forward (body doesn't turn until the first hand is nearly on the ground) hurdle does-transfer of momentum in a straight plane. Am I missing something?

I'm trying to figure out how to adapt it for power hurdle, see if it helps one of my medium level tumblers. It doesn't feel right, but I've just been playing around without putting a roundoff after the hurdle.

 

[BlairBob]

The Head Coach at the last gym I was at talked about this technique in regards to the basic technique he teaches which is similar. He said he had heard doing it this way sort of coils the body to get a bit more spring into the RO.

He prefers to have them initiate the RO as a FHS so the first hand fingers point forward with the second hand turning 90 on the floor.

The whole point is it makes them keep their body square which many gymnasts will not do.

I asked another friend's take on it, who is a MS in biomechanics and he said it might be good to teach it this way as an introductory step and eventually switch to the first hand 90 degrees to the side and the 2nd hand doing a T to get maximum turnover.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I've had six kids with slightly crooked roundoffs experiment with this technique.

One (an older one) found it to be too wierd and it didn't make much of a difference for her.

Four seemed to tumble slightly tighter and straighter with this technique. The difference wasn't huge, but was certainly noticable.

Kid #6 utterly blew my mind when she tried this. 13-year-old level 6.5, very talented, but has tumbled crooked (and I mean REALLY crooked) for as long as we've had her, and we've tried just about everything to fix it. Using the arm offset, this bad habit that she's had for 8 years fixed itself in a matter of seconds.
For this kid, it didn't even seem like a drill or a technical fix -- drills and technical fixes take time and practice and patience. What this was was a magic trick. It was like we just waved a magic wand at the problem, and it vanished. In all my years in this sport, I have never seen such a long-lived bad habit fixed so quickly and completely.

 

[CoachGoofy]

I played around with this yesterday bc I was curious (and have a couple who do goofy roundoffs if they're thinking too much about what comes after the roundoff).

It didn't do anything noticable with my running roundoff, but the change off the power hurdle was pretty substantial (and I was under the impression I had a strong power hurdle roundoff, a background in T&T does that). I'm thinkin' this week we're going to play with this hurdle & see if it helps the kids at all.

 

[gymdog]

This makes sense, although if you don't step over then I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes (maybe it does, I'd have to try it). I definitely don't step over. Also, the opposite problem - stepping towards the direction the first foot goes - I wonder if this would help that as well.

 

[ryantroop]

Seems to me like a doctor prescribing for the symptoms and not the problem.

If they are going crooked, it's a problem with how they kick their handstand, not their round-off.

But.. hey, if it works *shrug* do what you gotta do. Wouldnt be the first time a coach told a kid to do something that would make every other coach in the room balk.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

you didn't read my post. the cross over of the feet is an effect not the cause. it's an illusion.

again, if you left round off...the athlete will 'hop' on their right foot during the hurdle phase (assemble). as they hop on this foot and swing up their right arm there is a natural tendency for the body to slighty turn to the right. when they step down their body lands in a position that is already turned giving the 'appearance' that they have crossed over. it's an illusion, understand? the body was turned and crossed over BEFORE it came back down to the floor after the hurdle.

so, you keep the right arm at about parallel. this can be played with and tweaked. this keeps the right side of the body 'shorter' than the left and 'counters' the subtle tendency of the body to slightly turn to the right.

and Geoff, what you experienced is not a coincidence. this technique helps some kids more than others. but where you will really see the 'correction' is when they yurchenko. you see, the faster they run and the further the run down the runway is where this "twisty" round off can really rear its ugly head. keeping the arm in a certain position improves the performance of the round off. in many cases, you can take a terribly degraded round off and make it near perfect.

and as you pointed out, diego as well as several other olympic gymnasts perform the same technique. and they do it for a reason. it is NOT because there is something wrong with their round off. this is equally performed by gymnasts doing round off beam dismounts and front handspring front twisting skills on floor.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

This makes sense, although if you don't step over then I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes (maybe it does, I'd have to try it). I definitely don't step over. Also, the opposite problem - stepping towards the direction the first foot goes - I wonder if this would help that as well.

yes gymdog, it would help that as well.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

you didn't read my post. the cross over of the feet is an effect not the cause. it's an illusion.

again, if you left round off...the athlete will 'hop' on their right foot during the hurdle phase (assemble). as they hop on this foot and swing up their right arm there is a natural tendency for the body to slighty turn to the right. when they step down their body lands in a position that is already turned giving the 'appearance' that they have crossed over. it's an illusion, understand? the body was turned and crossed over BEFORE it came back down to the floor after the hurdle.

so, you keep the right arm at about parallel. this can be played with and tweaked. this keeps the right side of the body 'shorter' than the left and 'counters' the subtle tendency of the body to slightly turn to the right.

and Geoff, what you experienced is not a coincidence. this technique helps some kids more than others. but where you will really see the 'correction' is when they yurchenko. you see, the faster they run and the further the run down the runway is where this "twisty" round off can really rear its ugly head. keeping the arm in a certain position improves the performance of the round off. in many cases, you can take a terribly degraded round off and make it near perfect.

and as you pointed out, diego as well as several other olympic gymnasts perform the same technique. and they do it for a reason. it is NOT because there is something wrong with their round off. this is equally performed by gymnasts doing round off beam dismounts and front handspring front twisting skills on floor.

Interesting.... so would you use this for front handsprings as well with kids who have lop-side front handsprings?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes, absolutely. now that you know/see this, your 'eyes' will catch it when you watch video. when front twisting out of a front handspring, you will notice this arm adjustment more pronounced when the athlete twists past a full.

you will see this technique used for round offs when used for beam dismounts.

i believe you can 'see' this in your head. this is a great gift you have learned. you won't believe how happy you will make some of your kids when they miraculously begin to perform round offs straighter and faster than they have ever known or done. it is very profound for the athlete.

 

[gymdog]

I've seen that done on beam but an asymmetrical hand placement (i.e. "BHS hands") has also gotten more common on beam FHS. The FHS on floor this is probably not used enough, particularly on the girls side with so much front twisting coming out of a FHS, I've seen plenty of girls develop a FHS that is just a mess.

Speaking of which this is similar concept I guess. My preference for BHS hand placement would always be for the nondominant hand to be in front of the dominant hand (i.e. it should be opposite the leading leg). This is far from controversial in beam coaching now anyway, but you'll still see coaches that have never seen it balk at the idea and claim it is too hard for the kids to learn to use their non-dominant hand this way (which I think is completely untrue from my own experience. I'm not even particularly coordinated by gymnastics standards and had no problem with the "memorization" to put my left hand in front).

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i agree with you. this is what the chinese coaches teach. and yes, there are always exceptions, albeit small ones, to a rule.

 

[ryantroop]

In all fairness, I did not read your post before posting myself. I know, poor netiquette. My appologies.

I admit, I do see your side.. but I hold to my argument - if they are turning in flight, then they are doing something wrong.. but, that is my opinion.

Now, this is coming from a coach who hasnt had to coach beam in years (where I can totally see this as an issue), and I am not terribly familliar with the problems associated with the hurdle and how this method can help issues there... however, I have always found a way to correct misaligned hurdles on floor by focusing on squaring on the take off, and keeping the momentum forward.

To me, us disagreeing on this is good. This is why different gyms have different results in regards to athletes, and different styles. Or it's just me being stubborn, which is very much a probability.

 

[BlairBob]

Tried this on monday. I'm having a helluva time getting the second hand in place when doing it. I think a lot of it has to do with it just being used to my technique over 10 years.

I just remember that you have to switch the hands quickly as you reach for the floor. Perhaps that will help.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

yes, you must be patient. also understand that this technique is not necessary for EVERY single kid. it's for those that have that danged 'twisty' going in and coming out of the round off.

 

[BlairBob]

I'm really digging this technique lately. I had talked previously to another girl's coach who thought because the body sort of becomes "coiled" by this action, there is extra power. I think there might be.

 

[CoachGoofy]

I've been using this & a slightly modified version with my T&Ters lately.

It was really dramatic for one girl who did the "here's my belly button!" roundoff, & one of my super bendy kids who tends to throw her arms clear behind her ears with a symmetrical hurdle has done well too. Oh internets, what did we ever do without you?