WAG Not sandbagging, but...

[raenndrops]

Where do you see the vault SV because I was just told all levels have a 10 SV

At Level 6 and Level 7 all 3 choices are out of a 10.0.
At Level 8, each vault is assigned a start value from 9.0 to 10.0.
Once you get to Level 9, NONE of the L8 10.0 vaults are worth 10.0 anymore.

But (I know your DD wasnt sandbagging as she has moved through the levels rather quickly) if she had done a meet or 2 at Level 7 with the Yurchenko timer, she could have continued doing a Yurchenko (without flipping) to her feet (but not onto a mat stack) and still had a 9.0 SV on it.

 

[amiandjim]

Oh I wasn’t speaking of your daughter! Of course going 4/7 is totally understandable. You stayed a flic lay on beam was required at your gym for level 8, and that is what I was addressing. That seems excessive, IMO. I have seen girls do cartwheel roundoff at that level (not that I necessarily agree with that) and score low 9. There is no reason a bhs bhs couldn’t be done.

 

[amiandjim]

So if someone’s daughter goes 8 and has the normal minimum skills and kills every single meet. What’s the complaining going to be about then? Sandbagging, or she’s doing the bare minimum, or maybe people might say she shouldn’t be in that level? Regardless someone will complain or think something is silly about any and everything.

Yes, I do agree with this and you will see it every level. Nothing to be done about it. My level 4 kiddo competed against girls who had level 7 skills last summer but still repeated 4, it’s life and we just deal with it. I was simply saying requiring a layout on beam at level 8 is in my opinion excessive.

 

[Ty’s Dad]

Yes, I do agree with this and you will see it every level. Nothing to be done about it. My level 4 kiddo competed against girls who had level 7 skills last summer but still repeated 4, it’s life and we just deal with it. I was simply saying requiring a layout on beam at level 8 is in my opinion excessive.

Understandable

 

[Ty’s Dad]

Oh I wasn’t speaking of your daughter! Of course going 4/7 is totally understandable. You stayed a flic lay on beam was required at your gym for level 8, and that is what I was addressing. That seems excessive, IMO. I have seen girls do cartwheel roundoff at that level (not that I necessarily agree with that) and score low 9. There is no reason a bhs bhs couldn’t be done.

My daughter does BHS BHS then a roundoff layout dismount at level 7. I was also told (from my daughter) the Fast Track program requires those skills, regular JO level 7-10 don’t have to do all of the extra stuff

 

[OzZee]

I don't get all this. I'm glad here there are age requirements as well, stops this crazy push on the little kids.
So any good gymnast should be pushed forward faster and faster and faster so they never score a 38? It's no good for a child to have a really successful season? It's a race to get to level 10? Not just enjoy the sport if you are winning or not?
Anyone who does well are deemed as sandbagging- which really I don't quite get. So a kid is held back to score high - well that's their choice, they progress slower but win more medals (LOL in a country where everyone seems to get a medal anyway so they seem pretty worthless), or they decide they would rather progress through the levels quicker and do less well. So what, it's just a kids sport, and everyone should be able to choose their journey and what they feel ready to do. Just because they can score really well at one level, I don't get why they should have to do the next level if they aren't ready for it or will do terrible (we do have mandatory progressions here, if you are top 3 at state you have to move up unless there are extenuating circumstances presented to the state).

 

[LJL07]

She was coming from level 6 so we really didn’t know how she would score, I mean I knew she wouldn’t be in last but I didn’t know she would basically kill every meet. I do understand where some parents get mad because it’s not fair sometimes, but with my daughter we really didn’t have a choice, it was either go 7 and get your confidence up for 9 or skip 7 and prob not have your best meet scores and prob repeat 8.

Level 6&7 are so close though. I’m not surprised that your daughter did amazing as a 7 if she was a solid 6. I would expect her to kill it on 7. My daughter did 6 with level 7 skills due to her age and we wanted an extra year to prepare her for level 8 vault. The jump from 6 or 7 to 8 is pretty big due to the vault. It’s pretty unusual to skip over level 8. The jump from 8 to 9 is also huge.

 

[LJL07]

I do think you have to be careful assuming that because someone scored a 38 at one level that they are ready for the next. Moving 7 to 8, 8 to 9, and 9 to 10 all have big jumps. Some kids are terrified of flipping a vault, others of releases on high bar. I know kids that did not want to move up, and stayed 8s their entire career doing quite well, because they had no desire to do the bigger level skills but wanted to stay with the JO program. In addition, unless you have been in the meetings with those parents, you do not know what the story is. Maybe the kid has a back tumbling block that they want to work through while at a lower level before expecting big skills.

I am not saying that sandbagging never happens. I would not say that. I woudl say that most gyms probably have a plan in place that may differ from another gym's plan. And that is ok. And they may be L7 training L9, and that is ok. Odds are a year or half a year of 8 is planned in there, but that is their journey. We have a kid going 6 to 8 on our team next year.

I think I have just heard the term sandbagging used with my son, and other gymnasts, where there is a plan in place that might be different from expected. The outside world expected my son to do L6 that one year, and L9 the 2nd year, adn when he didn't, we were accused of holding him back so he could win. And it could not have been further from the truth. So, I just think, without firm evidence that a gym is saying "we are going to keep you at Level X because we want to win" you have to be careful about calling them out.

AMEN!! From personal experience, 38s on 7 do not necessarily translate to 38s on level 8/9/10.

And @OzZee, it sure feels like a race to get to 10 in this country. Even though the mantra on CB is “it’s a marathon, not a sprint...”

 

[coachmolly]

I don't get all this. I'm glad here there are age requirements as well, stops this crazy push on the little kids.
So any good gymnast should be pushed forward faster and faster and faster so they never score a 38? It's no good for a child to have a really successful season? It's a race to get to level 10? Not just enjoy the sport if you are winning or not?
Anyone who does well are deemed as sandbagging- which really I don't quite get. So a kid is held back to score high - well that's their choice, they progress slower but win more medals (LOL in a country where everyone seems to get a medal anyway so they seem pretty worthless), or they decide they would rather progress through the levels quicker and do less well. So what, it's just a kids sport, and everyone should be able to choose their journey and what they feel ready to do. Just because they can score really well at one level, I don't get why they should have to do the next level if they aren't ready for it or will do terrible (we do have mandatory progressions here, if you are top 3 at state you have to move up unless there are extenuating circumstances presented to the state).

This is great. From my experiences, rushing kids to the next level- even if they were successful at the previous level- is more detrimental than holding them back for a solid year to gain experience. I know of one gym that regularly tries to get kids to skip through levels by doing a score out meet early in the season in what seems like a race to get to level 9/10. The result? Kids who burn out after a miserable season and leave gym on a bad note. Kids who develop fears from being pushed too hard too fast that totally devastate their confidence. Kids who make it at the higher level but have pretty large weak spots due to racing to gain skills that eventually catch up with them. Kids who end up going back to the level they were supposed to skip, embarrassed and ashamed. It's not worth it. Some kids are ready and prepared to score out of a level, but those kids will make themselves clear. If it's an anxiety producing rush, even if just on one event, maybe it's time to rethink and slow down. And obviously some levels make more sense to skip than others (3 & 6 for example).
I know that some cases are a little over the top, we ran into one team this year that had girls repeating level 5 who scored 36+ AA last season which seems a little crazy considering how close level 5 & 6 are, but we also didn't know the exact circumstances. Maybe those kids were injured, had mental blocks that had worked themselves out by the time season started, couldn't commit to the hours required of level 6- who knows.

 

[John]

This thread highlights the problems with JO. Those problems are almost to numerous to comprehend. Of course these are all my opinions but I can think of a few that make me mental: Crazy parents, crazy coaches, crazy gym requirements, and a poor scoring system.

As it stands many of the problems are unfixable because it is individuals with the problems and policing individuals is really not an option. USAG could make rules on repeating and mandatory level moves but that may result in hurting athletes. possibly meets groupings could solve the problems of repeating athletes.

I know I harp on the scoring aspect of JO but I think it needs to be changed. I believe every athlete should get some sort of execution score as well as difficulty score. Not saying we go full Olympic scoring just figure out how to award execution and difficulty. This would even the field and silence many crazy parents. And ultimately the athlete with the best execution and difficulty will win the day.

My two cents.

 

[profmom]

Hi, John. That's exactly what we have on the boys' side once they reach optionals. It solves some problems but creates others. A level 8 boy can, if he is capable, do D or E skills and get rewarded in his start values. It's not a panacea and would most certainly not slow the rush to acquire and compete more difficult skills at a young age.

As I have been saying for a long time, a lot of the problem lies in the culture. Without cultural change in the sport, people will work any scoring/rule system USAG or its successor adopts. We still have gyms whose model is to attract a ton of compulsory kids and train them crazy hours with harsh methods to see which handful has adapted and survived by upper optionals. The highly successful upper optionals are the face of these programs, and no one asks about the majority of athletes who have quit due to burnout or overtraining injuries. Unless and until these gyms are not among our most highly respected and emulated programs, nothing will change.

 

[3rd_time_around]

MY GYM level 8 skills

Bars
normal level 8 bar routine with a double pike

Vault
Yuchanko with a flip

Beam
Flick lay, back tuck, full dismount

Floor
Fulls two front pikes

Level 9

Vault
Is the same as 8

Beam

Same with prob a double tuck dismount and front and side Ariel’s

Bars
Same with a release

Floor
Double backs and other things


Just asked my daughter

Yes other gyms may let gymnasts do whatever but that’s their gym not mine

Pretty sure some of these skills are not allowed at the levels you listed. Level 8s can only do 1 restricted C acro on beam, and you list 2; level 9 you list 2 Ds and an E for beam, and they can only do 1 restricted D/E acro; the restricted D/E goes for bars and floor as well and restricted C acros for level 8 are also limited to 1 per event. I think there may be a misunderstanding about the skills that are performed at level 9 there.

Personally, I wouldn’t have her score out of 8, as it’s a HUGE jump to 9 and 9 is crazy. We had a phenomenal gymnast who was on the state team for level 6 and 7; she scored out of 8 and struggled so much at 9 for most of the season. Level 9 is hard! I won’t sugarcoat it. My own dd was the alternate for Easterns her first year of 9 and still repeated 9. Wherever she goes, you want her to be safe and able to perform her skills safely and successfully.

 

[3rd_time_around]

This thread highlights the problems with JO. Those problems are almost to numerous to comprehend. Of course these are all my opinions but I can think of a few that make me mental: Crazy parents, crazy coaches, crazy gym requirements, and a poor scoring system.

As it stands many of the problems are unfixable because it is individuals with the problems and policing individuals is really not an option. USAG could make rules on repeating and mandatory level moves but that may result in hurting athletes. possibly meets groupings could solve the problems of repeating athletes.

I know I harp on the scoring aspect of JO but I think it needs to be changed. I believe every athlete should get some sort of execution score as well as difficulty score. Not saying we go full Olympic scoring just figure out how to award execution and difficulty. This would even the field and silence many crazy parents. And ultimately the athlete with the best execution and difficulty will win the day.

My two cents.

I feel like this system in JO/club would increase the crazy with some coaches and parents pushing kids to get the higher difficulty skills before they’re ready, resulting in more injuries. Also, gymnastics would get sloppier, as we’ve seen at the elite level (can any elite hit a 180 split any more?). That’s why they instituted the Compositional deductions at levels 8-10, so that the more difficult routines do get rewarded and higher scores. But until level 7, just like Xcel, there’s a list of skill choices to choose from so the gymnast can perform what she does best.

 

[sce]

The coaches was asking us if we wanted her to SKIP 7 and go 8 but scratch vault. Or complete 7 and skip 8.

Why skip any levels?

 

[3rd_time_around]

I feel like this system in JO/club would increase the crazy with some coaches and parents pushing kids to get the higher difficulty skills before they’re ready, resulting in more injuries. Also, gymnastics would get sloppier, as we’ve seen at the elite level (can any elite hit a 180 split any more?). That’s why they instituted the Compositional deductions at levels 8-10, so that the more difficult routines do get rewarded and higher scores. But until level 7, just like Xcel, there’s a list of skill choices to choose from so the gymnast can perform what she does best.

Of course I meant until level 8; should have said “through level 7.”

 

[moogacat]

My daughter started two years ago as an Xcel Bronze after substantial rec experience. She had most of the skills of an Xcel Gold, but she had literally never seen a vault table. She competed some skills above level (as allowed), and we heard the whispers about sandbagging both in the gym and at meets. She had successful seasons at Bronze and Silver, and now that she's got more experience under her belt and more skills, especially on vault, she scored out of Gold this year and competed the season as a Platinum. We hear whispers how about her being inappropriately moved up even though she did largely Diamond level routines. I think in situations like this you can't win, so you can't make your decisions on whether others think you are sandbagging or whether you are moving too quickly. You have to talk to the coaches and your kid and do the best with what info you have, and be prepared for the looks and whispers. It'll all generally work out.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I feel like this system in JO/club would increase the crazy with some coaches and parents pushing kids to get the higher difficulty skills before they’re ready, resulting in more injuries. Also, gymnastics would get sloppier, as we’ve seen at the elite level (can any elite hit a 180 split any more?). That’s why they instituted the Compositional deductions at levels 8-10, so that the more difficult routines do get rewarded and higher scores. But until level 7, just like Xcel, there’s a list of skill choices to choose from so the gymnast can perform what she does best.

This.

 

[John]

I feel like this system in JO/club would increase the crazy with some coaches and parents pushing kids to get the higher difficulty skills before they’re ready, resulting in more injuries. Also, gymnastics would get sloppier, as we’ve seen at the elite level (can any elite hit a 180 split any more?). That’s why they instituted the Compositional deductions at levels 8-10, so that the more difficult routines do get rewarded and higher scores. But until level 7, just like Xcel, there’s a list of skill choices to choose from so the gymnast can perform what she does best.

You make valid points but I will stick with my suggestion. My daughter is wrapping up her level 8 season with regionals tomorrow. I watched many meets and many sessions and to me corner and floor dancing with the minimum skill is still a winning recipe. Saying Coaches will push and parents will push is never going to increase or decrease with a scoring system change. The desire to push would require strict rule changes and enforcement, which is just not applicable. That pushing is the current culture of gymnastics, to affect change would mean people would need to change.

Lastly and surely not a statement that will be liked, but must be said, is that meets are competitions and competitions are entered for the thrill of competition and the final outcome. I wish My DD could train and skip competition until she was a confident gymnast with incredible level 10 skills. She would be mature and have a better grasp on winning, losing, and competition in general. I cant find a place to make that happen. So in the mean time I would prefer to see each gymnast awarded for her strength whether that strength is dance and presentation or big skills.

I watch Simone Biles and I must say her forte is not dance nor presentation but instead the most difficult amazing skills.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I watched many meets and many sessions and to me corner and floor dancing with the minimum skill is still a winning recipe.

I watch Simone Biles and I must say her forte is not dance nor presentation but instead the most difficult amazing skills.

Simone Biles doesn't compete JO rules. And yes they have difficulty built into their scoring. And her bad days are usually better then most's good days. She is beyond exceptional. So not the best example.

The bottom line however is you perform a skill you do well. So doing a more difficult skill badly simply may not score as well as a less difficult skill. And starting at level 8, there is an expectation of level difficulty. The well performed up to level routine will score better then the well performed not up to level routine. Mine did a BWO-BHS on beam at L8. The BHS-BHS kids who did it well beat her. As they should. When her BWO-BHS was better and the BHS-BHS gymmies fell or didn't connect, she beat them. As she should.

My daughter is a minimal fluff/dance kid. I beg her and her coach to punch up her floor. Her coach tells me don't force her to do more then is required, especially if she is not committed to it. Un-required more is just asking for more possible deductions. So no her dance won't dazzle you. And she can out score a kid who dance is great but tumbling is sloppy. More popular with the audience doesn't get more points.

Do harder, do more, but be sure you do it well. And you can't say its not fair if a "harder" was skill was badly done and got beat by an allowable "easier" skill done well. Both routines were a choice. The skills are allowed.

 

[John]

@Deleted member 18037 opinions besides your own have validity in this world. My point is not about sloppy gymnastics versus well executed gymnastics but perfect execution and difficult skills being weighted and benefitting the athlete.