Parents Picking Up

[Gymnast2017]

Hi,

I had a chat today with my daughter’s Head coach, who has a group of kids who are considered the best in the club. My daughter has always performed within the top three of her group at comps and is pretty consistent. When I asked about potential to move up, she said that my daughter picks up slower than others. She often has to be told something several times, that others get first time. My daughter turned 8 last week, and struggles with ADHD. I didn’t tell the coach, as it seemed pointless and I didn’t want to be one of those parents that “uses it as an excuse”. When I mentioned how well my daughter does at comps, the coach said there’s nothing worse than a kid that doesn’t do things well in the gym but can turn it out for a comp. I do totally agree with the coach, my daughter picks things up slower and therefore has to work much harder at home and at gym. But this is part of who she is and is unlikely to change. It seems unfair, as kids are all different. Any advice appreciated, my daughter is feeling a bit deflated, like no matter how hard she works or well she does it will probably not be enough. Not all kids can be in the top group and that is totally fair, but when the results display one thing and her ability to pick up says another, I’m not sure what the point is in all the extra effort!

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

ADHD coach here.

To me, how well a kid does in competition is not even a factor I consider. How they do at practice is what matters.

Sorry, I know it's not the answer you want to hear, but meets are developmentally irrelevant.

 

[Gymnast2017]

ADHD coach here.

To me, how well a kid does in competition is not even a factor I consider. How they do at practice is what matters.

Sorry, I know it's not the answer you want to hear, but meets are developmentally irrelevant.

So if she doesn’t have the natural ability to pick up quickly, there’s not much point in the extra work at home? Seems backwards, she puts in 100% effort but it just takes her longer to understand. It seem unfair that goes against her when the end result is always as it should be?

 

[Coach Kate]

I actually would find it helpful for you to share that she has ADHD and any strategies you know of that could help her. When coaches are putting together training groups, they are definitely considering learning styles and how the group will fit together. If there are things the coach can be doing to support her in her training, it's always good to know that.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

So if she doesn’t have the natural ability to pick up quickly, there’s not much point in the extra work at home?

Not at all what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Deciding levels means deciding what skills we're going to be working on. That decision is based entirely on what I see consistently in practice.

Which, I know, is super-frustrating for a young, low-level, ADHD kid. The unfortunate truth of this sport is that the boring stuff is the most important and has to come first, and the unfortunate truth about ADHD is that those of us who have it have a really hard time doing boring things consistently. But safe progression requires consistency.

New skills can be dangerous; if she has a bad crash, her most recent meet placement won't un-injure her. Injuries don't care about fairness, or about meet placement, or about what a kid can occasionally do on a really good day. Safe skill development relies on consistency.

Regarding at-home work: she should only do it only when and if she feels like it, and it should be focused primarily (or better yet, exclusively) on strength, flexibility, and handstand basics. I actively recommend against working anything past handstand basics (holds, presses, pirouettes, rolls) at home.

 

[Gymnast2017]

Not at all what I meant, sorry if I wasn't clear.

Deciding levels means deciding what skills we're going to be working on. That decision is based entirely on what I see consistently in practice.

Which, I know, is super-frustrating for a young, low-level, ADHD kid. The unfortunate truth of this sport is that the boring stuff is the most important and has to come first, and the unfortunate truth about ADHD is that those of us who have it have a really hard time doing boring things consistently. But safe progression requires consistency.

New skills can be dangerous; if she has a bad crash, her most recent meet placement won't un-injure her. Injuries don't care about fairness, or about meet placement, or about what a kid can occasionally do on a really good day. Safe skill development relies on consistency.

Regarding at-home work: she should only do it only when and if she feels like it, and it should be focused primarily (or better yet, exclusively) on strength, flexibility, and handstand basics. I actively recommend against working anything past handstand basics (holds, presses, pirouettes, rolls) at home.

That’s all really fair. She has great basics oddly enough, it’s when the skills change that she struggles to adapt. For example she’s been told today she needs to do a ‘T’ with her hands on beam for a cartwheel, so she’ll do that… when she is then given the next instruction, “look under your armpit”, she went again and did so, but forgot the ‘T’ with her hands. It’s the working memory holding onto all the different corrections for a skill all at once. The faster the skill, the harder she finds it. Once she then gets one right, she’ll get another ten wrong before getting the second right. However once she has learnt it, it is solid and looks great. Better than the kids who’s got it quicker in the beginning, hence the scoring at comps. It just feels a shame, the coach says she doesn’t have time to remind her more than once but the nature of my daughter is she will probably always need that. If an impartial person came into the gym they’d pick her out as one of the better kids from practice, but if they all got given a new skill that day she’d be the last to get it every time. All of the kids have flaws, but it seems only my daughter has one that’s a non-starter!

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

That’s all really fair. She has great basics oddly enough, it’s when the skills change that she struggles to adapt. For example she’s been told today she needs to do a ‘T’ with her hands on beam for a cartwheel, so she’ll do that… when she is then given the next instruction, “look under your armpit”, she went again and did so, but forgot the ‘T’ with her hands. It’s the working memory holding onto all the different corrections for a skill all at once. The faster the skill, the harder she finds it. Once she then gets one right, she’ll get another ten wrong before getting the second right. However once she has learnt it, it is solid and looks great. Better than the kids who’s got it quicker in the beginning, hence the scoring at comps. It just feels a shame, the coach says she doesn’t have time to remind her more than once but the nature of my daughter is she will probably always need that. If an impartial person came into the gym they’d pick her out as one of the better kids from practice, but if they all got given a new skill that day she’d be the last to get it every time. All of the kids have flaws, but it seems only my daughter has one that’s a non-starter!

I think "non-starter" is an exaggeration. I think it's pretty common for ADHD kids struggle learning basics, and then excel once they reach the upper levels. The learning curve tends to be exponential, not linear, even more with ADHD kids than with neurotypical kids.

There's two reasons for this, I think:
1) Once the basics* are hard coded into muscle memory, there's an infinite supply of new and different and interesting ways they can be combined into advanced skills. At the top level, the entire sport is little more than an ADHD playground, with an effectively infinite supply of new and thrilling things to try.
2) As the levels get higher, the groups thin out, and each kid gets more individual attention.

*by "basic," I don't mean "easy." When I say basics, what I mean is the components that can be used to safely build big advanced skills. If we're looking at level 10/collegiate gymnastics as a frame of reference, then anything up to about level 9ish is still basics. A double back, for example, is still a basic skill because it is an essential component of a lot of other skills.

I don't know of any reliable statistics about what percentage of elite gymnasts are diagnosably ADHD, but I'd be shocked if it's less than 50%. Probably even higher among coaches.

 

[Gymnast2017]

I think "non-starter" is an exaggeration. I think it's pretty common for ADHD kids struggle learning basics, and then excel once they reach the upper levels. The learning curve tends to be exponential, not linear, even more with ADHD kids than with neurotypical kids.

There's two reasons for this, I think:
1) Once the basics* are hard coded into muscle memory, there's an infinite supply of new and different and interesting ways they can be combined into advanced skills. At the top level, the entire sport is little more than an ADHD playground, with an effectively infinite supply of new and thrilling things to try.
2) As the levels get higher, the groups thin out, and each kid gets more individual attention.

*by "basic," I don't mean "easy." When I say basics, what I mean is the components that can be used to safely build big advanced skills. If we're looking at level 10/collegiate gymnastics as a frame of reference, then anything up to about level 8ish is still basics. A double back, for example, is still a basic skill because it is an essential component of a lot of other skills.

I don't know of any actual statistics about what percentage of elite gymnasts are diagnosably ADHD, but I'd be shocked if it's less than 50%. Probably even higher among coaches.

That’s interesting to hear. I used the term non-starter because her coach has point blank said she will not consider her for the top group unless she picks up much quicker, whereas the other kids (some not flexible, others with bad habits, poor strength) she thinks she can work with even through that flaw, but not a lack of ability to pick up quickly.

I wonder what her potential will be if she can get there, but unfortunately at the gym the children not in top group tend not to be entered. I don’t think she’d continue to put all the extra effort in if she knew she wasn’t be entered

 

[rd7]

It seems strange for a coach to say that they don't have time to remind a gymnast of a correction more than once. Is this just for the "Top group"? If this is standard coaching it may be time to look somewhere else where they are better able to accommodate your daughter's learning style.

I agree with all of the above regarding basics and effort in the gym though.

 

[Gymnast2017]

It seems strange for a coach to say that they don't have time to remind a gymnast of a correction more than once. Is this just for the "Top group"? If this is standard coaching it may be time to look somewhere else where they are better able to accommodate your daughter's learning style.

I agree with all of the above regarding basics and effort in the gym though.

It’s just for this top group, issue being it’s usually only the top group that get entered in anything. Though it takes her longer to pick up, it tends to go from not getting it to it looking great almost overnight. The others show a gradual progression. I think my biggest problem is feeling the vibe that the coach doesn’t particularly want my child to do well, particularly when she was saying it annoys her that my daughter outperforms on the day when she sees kids that looks better in the gym.

 

[NutterButter]

Are you in the US? It’s odd that only the top group of 3 would be entered in a meet. How do kids in the other groups ever get the opportunity to compete and move up? If those kids never have that opportunity then this would be an indicator to change gyms. As far as the ADHD, lots of kiddos have this and you may need a gym where the coaches have an understanding and desire to work with your DD.

 

[raenndrops]

It’s just for this top group, issue being it’s usually only the top group that get entered in anything. Though it takes her longer to pick up, it tends to go from not getting it to it looking great almost overnight. The others show a gradual progression. I think my biggest problem is feeling the vibe that the coach doesn’t particularly want my child to do well, particularly when she was saying it annoys her that my daughter outperforms on the day when she sees kids that looks better in the gym.

I am guessing that the top group is trying to go at a faster pace (which is why the coach doesn't have time to give a correction more than once). Since she struggles with working memory, that top group would probably be the WORST place for her.

She would NOT do or be better because of that group. In fact, it could possibly frustrate her to the point of wanting to quit.

Good luck.

 

[Uscwaite]

It seems strange for a coach to say that they don't have time to remind a gymnast of a correction more than once. Is this just for the "Top group"? If this is standard coaching it may be time to look somewhere else where they are better able to accommodate your daughter's learning style.

I agree with all of the above regarding basics and effort in the gym though.

My daughter is competing level 7 this year and she learns slower as well and has been diagnosed with ADHD. She started when she was 5 at a smaller gym and picked things up very quickly because she always had the individualized attention that she needed but she was struggling mentally after a few injuries so she moved to a large gym in our area and that did not work for her at all. It got her mentally out of her rut but she started to get left behind skill wise. The coaches just didn’t have the time to work with her and she never got enough time on the equipment to feel comfortable. The smaller gym with more individual attention works so much better for her. We moved her back to her old gym and she is thriving and so much happier. My daughter who is 12 can now recognize the kind of coaching she needs. Good luck

 

[GymMathDance]

I think what we're missing here is that the coach has a group of kids to coach, not just one. The coach should be spending equal time on all the kids. If the coach has to spend a bunch of time reminding one kid of the same thing over and over, that's not fair to the other kids who are not getting an equal amount of attention and their coaching is being taken away from. The student is essentially getting private lessons without paying for them - so the fact that scores are high at competitions isn't relevant. That student got way more work from the coach than the other kids.

 

[34gymcoach]

It sounds like maybe the coach was not expecting your question; maybe they said it a little bit insensitively bc they were surprised? I’m not sure if you asked off the cuff or it was a planned meeting- that makes a difference. It takes a lot of practice & confidence to talk to parents! I had a mom say I was rude once bc she asked if I had a minute to talk and I I honestly said no- I had a group in the gym and 2 minutes to go to the bathroom !
It sounds like there is a fast track group, and then maybe a “regular” group? It’s ok to be regular and it’s ok to feel a type of way that the coach bluntly told you their perception. Honestly- it’s usually those “regular” kids who make it long term bc they have learned to over come adversity, work hard, etc. I wasn’t there, but it sounds like the coach was telling you your daughter was grouped correctly- although it came out insensitively.

I agree that competition results don’t mean much-especially at lower levels. Keep encouraging your daughter to work hard, do her best, have fun and grow as a person and gymnast! Those are the most important things to teach kids. There WIlL be times she’s discouraged, sad and things might even be unfair at times. It’s up to us to help kids to learn to cope with all of the above because they will be dealing with those issues all of their lives.

 

[Gymnast2017]

I think what we're missing here is that the coach has a group of kids to coach, not just one. The coach should be spending equal time on all the kids. If the coach has to spend a bunch of time reminding one kid of the same thing over and over, that's not fair to the other kids who are not getting an equal amount of attention and their coaching is being taken away from. The student is essentially getting private lessons without paying for them - so the fact that scores are high at competitions isn't relevant. That student got way more work from the coach than the other kid

I think what we're missing here is that the coach has a group of kids to coach, not just one. The coach should be spending equal time on all the kids. If the coach has to spend a bunch of time reminding one kid of the same thing over and over, that's not fair to the other kids who are not getting an equal amount of attention and their coaching is being taken away from. The student is essentially getting private lessons without paying for them - so the fact that scores are high at competitions isn't relevant. That student got way more work from the coach than the other kids.

I think it’s a little unfair to say she’d been getting essentially private lessons. They all line up, get a turn and correction then go again. Whereas other will get a correction or two, then the next go will just get well done… my daughter would get that same correction again. But it would be during her go, the other kids would have the same time just that it would be spent with a well done and a high five.

 

[Gymnast2017]

It sounds like maybe the coach was not expecting your question; maybe they said it a little bit insensitively bc they were surprised? I’m not sure if you asked off the cuff or it was a planned meeting- that makes a difference. It takes a lot of practice & confidence to talk to parents! I had a mom say I was rude once bc she asked if I had a minute to talk and I I honestly said no- I had a group in the gym and 2 minutes to go to the bathroom !
It sounds like there is a fast track group, and then maybe a “regular” group? It’s ok to be regular and it’s ok to feel a type of way that the coach bluntly told you their perception. Honestly- it’s usually those “regular” kids who make it long term bc they have learned to over come adversity, work hard, etc. I wasn’t there, but it sounds like the coach was telling you your daughter was grouped correctly- although it came out insensitively.

I agree that competition results don’t mean much-especially at lower levels. Keep encouraging your daughter to work hard, do her best, have fun and grow as a person and gymnast! Those are the most important things to teach kids. There WIlL be times she’s discouraged, sad and things might even be unfair at times. It’s up to us to help kids to learn to cope with all of the above because they will be dealing with those issues all of their lives.

There’s a top group, then a development group. The top group is pretty much guaranteed to compete, development usually don’t. So she has a shot at competing and done really well, but been moved down into a development group anyway.

It wasn’t really that she isn’t in the group. More that the coach seemed almost annoyed that she’d done well at the competition, over other kids that she feels look better in the gym. That’s kind of feels hard to come back from. I did ask off the cuff, but because groups are pending a lot of parents have asked too. I don’t think any of them got the kind of reply that I did, though I do not they’re all a lot closer and have known the coach a lot longer than myself.

 

[rd7]

I think what we're missing here is that the coach has a group of kids to coach, not just one. The coach should be spending equal time on all the kids. If the coach has to spend a bunch of time reminding one kid of the same thing over and over, that's not fair to the other kids who are not getting an equal amount of attention and their coaching is being taken away from. The student is essentially getting private lessons without paying for them - so the fact that scores are high at competitions isn't relevant. That student got way more work from the coach than the other kids.

All gymnasts need some form of coaching, whether it's reminders, emotional, support, pushing a little, shaping, coming back from injury, building confidence etc etc. It doesn't take long to remind a gymnast of a correction before a skill, maybe a few seconds. If a coach can't manage a group and give gymnasts equal time in this way then they're not coaching, they're just teaching skills.