Parents Preteam drama time!

[mariposa]

One other thought, in the coaches' defense, a lot of times they deal with parents who believe their child can do no wrong. In those cases, even something as simple as asking the child to sit out for being disruptive would cause ire from the parents. "How dare you sit my child out! I'm PAYING you to train her!" I'm sure you all know the type... so really, what's a coach to do? Obviously, as I said before, yelling and the like are never acceptable but some parents leave the coaches will few alternatives.

You are right about that, but in that case, they can always leave and find another gym. Coaches do have a tough job, but as you said, yelling, belittling, etc have NO place in the gym (or anywhere for that matter).

 

[mariposa]

You know when you can still pick up a gymmie and place them outside the door, they are still babies. Ooh sticks and stones, what is the deal with name calling.

How about "I see you don't feel much like doing gym today, howabout Mom takes you home, maybe next class you'll be more into it?".

A few weeks back my youngest was not into beam warm up at all, she did the blobby thing and the coach just let her sit to one side. Then the girls began working skills and DD decided she was all of a sudden fine (how odd eh?) and wanted to join in. The coach said sure, but not until you do the beam warm up, so she did it and all was fine.

Yes, yes, yes on all of those things. Great way to deal with your little one. I think that is a brilliant idea. Then they get that warm up, the little things, etc, are important.

 

[sheplaysinthechalk]

I don't really know how I feel about this...I really find it horrible that some coaches use name calling and belittling, humiliation and other demeaning things to coach children. They are CHILDREN. Regardless, really, of whether or not they are children or babies or adults, for that matter, no one REALLY deserves to be treated that way. Children deserve respect. If you show children respect - they are WAY more likely to follow the lead and be respectful toward you. I don't know what some people don't understand about that - some coaches, specifically.

I also don't understand the point in "punishing" anyone (especially children) with physical exercise or any conditioning whatsoever. Being "punished" is never fun. Being told that you've done something incorrectly, or that you've made a mistake and that consequences are to follow also isn't fun. If conditioning is such a MAJOR fundamental part of gymnastics (and I feel like others might agree), then why make the conditioning something that they athletes don't look forward to. You wouldn't look forward to being punished - and if children associate conditioning with punishment - then conditioning can never be fun or enjoyable because they feel like it's always a punishment.

That's what gets me.

My daughter LOVES the conditioning at gym. It's just something that she loves to do. She knows that it's uncomfortable sometimes, but she still loves it - and even jumps up and down with excitement when it's time. And so do the other girls on her team. None of our coaches EVER use any conditioning as punishment - ever. Not even so much as "go do 5 push ups" or "if you miss a step in your floor routine, then you have to do xyz conditioning." I really like that about our gym. The girls all view conditioning as something that they "get" to do rather than something that they "have" to do.

 

[emacmommy]

I have to pipe in again... Tim_Dad and Bog. Bog I'm sure knows this, but many of the classes at National and Regional Congresses are on sports psychology, motivating athletes (younger and older), etc. Unfortuneately Bog is right that many, many, many of our US coaches (especially Jr coaches) aren't required to take these classes and those that do only get the reinforcement maybe once a year during these national and regional clinics. These once in a blue moon classes hardly make us professional child educators, so the human effect factors in. We aren't perfect but if your coach still loves their choice in profession, then we always have the best intentions for your daughter/son in mind. Unfortunately sometimes the manner some choose to relay those intentions are as faulty as the average human being is. That was not an excuse for how he handled the younger gymmies in my opinion tho. Somewhere there's a post about "old school" coaching and present day positive reinforcement coaching, or just doing what has always been done in the past.

Tim_Dad, I truly feel your "penence" conditioning for faulty effort is only effective if the child understands the relation of the penence to the behavior they are trying to correct. Wobbly-loosy goosy body on beam, that penence had better be directly related to being able strengthen that loosy goosy area. If it's mental & lack of focus only and not ability related I'm not sold on that method working... especially for a young gymmie (less than 9yrs, maybe even some 10 yr olds too). For mental it's just constant verbal guidance, which is hard when you have up between 8 - 12 girls in one workout group, as some do. We do preach drill the skill and it will come (or improve) so I want my gymmies to understand why they then have to do some repetition of drill if I want the quality something I saw changed. I also try and inform while we stretch and condition too, why these are important and exactly what skills they may relate to in the present and future.

Now, I will use some drastic conditioning means say when I don't see 100% effort out of some of my 11yrs and older gymmies and full routines (and their isn't a good reason why).... say, they don't put complete effort into the routine and say, slop through and not go for the last tumbling pass or something. Then I may make them run 5 stairs or something similar, so they can be stronger in the future to get that last pass. They are told why and you can bet more often than not, that next routine they change that tweenie attitude and put forth the effort. I would NEVER pull something like that with a Level 3 or Level 4 gymmie, or even a more advanced younger gymmie. Like I've heard said in pp, many like to condition, others just don't get the relationship of conditioning being bad or penetive. Time outs for youngers are still the best, along with that motivator of "shall I talk with your parents?" Unfortunately that last one doesn't work for my DD, since I do coach her.

Off my soap box now.

 

[starmaker]

DD has been at her current gym now for a whole year and she has never had a deciplinary issue or even not want to participate. She is ususally very well behaved and responds well to corrections. This particular day was a tough one. It was the last practice before a meet and dd was refusing to participate because it was "dark" outside. (first week since the time change- and it was dark earlier than usual) Really that's all it was. I was not going to give into her whime and take her home. I just told her fine to take a sit and when class was over we'd go home. I didn't want her to get in the habit of going home early just because...

When HC picked her up by the shoulders and sat her outside of the gym by the steps and told her to go home she was begging to go back in. I just looked at her and said: you were just crying because you wanted to go home and now you are crying because you want to go in.......Come on Liv, let's go home!

Next practice Liv went straight to HC and hugged her legs!!! HC just patted her on the back and sent her to warm up. HC is a tough cookie. If dd does something cute she will turn around to laugh because she doesn't want dd to see her smiling. Her praises are few and far between. Liv notices and apprectiates every smile, thumbs up, high five HC gives her. She'll tell me things like: HC gave me thumbs up today for "X". And I know she must of done something pretty darn good!!

 

[flippersmom]

If you are not comfortable with how your child is being treated, it is time to leave. You are a paying customer pay for a service. If other parents are not comfortable, they have the right to leave also. It is up to you, as only you truly know what is best for your child. Has anyone addressed this with the coach to find out why it was handled this way. Is it is policy, or was he teaching this class and giving up his off time and feeling frustrated.

Yellers and punishers do not make good gymnast. Hard work and determination do. I love my dd coach now. She can give that look, and the girls just know. She does not yell. Occassionally she has done the group punishment, but it is not a harsh punishment and never if just 1 is messing around, and there is alway a warning first. Most will stop right after the warning, because they don't want everyone getting punished for just them.

It is hard when a parent tells a story of what happened without directly seeing it or having your dd there. I wouldn't be quick to switch unless you or your dd are unhappy.

 

[sheplaysinthechalk]

DD did not want to participate. (I think back then the time change was affecting her and eventhough it was only 7:30 pm it felt like 8:30pm to her). She just sat there pouting and lightly crying. Her coach said she was up next and HC saw her and asked what was going on. She didn't wait for a response before she picked her up and put dd outside and told her to go home because babies aren't allowed in the gym. I personally thought it was a bit harsh but I just took my baby home and told her that some gym days are tough but other are AWESOME and she agreed with me. (Thank goodness)

I know our HC is very tough and a bit harsh at times. I am just hoping dd will be able to deal with her when she older for now.....I just quietly observe.

Unfortunatly, things like this happen and some gyms lose perspective and forget that they are children first then gymnasts.

Idk...I don't personally think that this is too horrible, IMHO. Your daughter is still VERY young. And was obviously tired. Time changes are confusing to little ones. My dd is still asking me at like 6:00pm if it's time for bed - even though she's not tired... and even if we are at gym or somewhere else for that matter. She just doesn't get why it's dark outside, but we are still up and out.

I'm sure that your coach and HC are quite aware that children are like this. Ours are. And they will do very similar things with the kids at our gym who aren't working or having a "blah" day or whatever....In fact, just last week, my dd didn't want to work on training tramp (usually one of her favorites). I still don't know why. She just says that she was tired. Anyway, coach attempted to give her a turn several times and then approached me. He told me that he had asked dd if she would rather be in the preschool class instead of her team class. dd told him no. He then just told her that if she wasn't going to work hard in the big girl class, then she would have to go into the preschool class until she was ready to do what she has to do in the team class. He just told me that he's going to take that route with her for now. So, if my dd is having some kind of thing in the gym on any given day, from now on HC will walk her over to the preschool class - and it's just to make a point to her. She knows that the preschool classes don't do the "fun" gym things that she gets to do on team. It hasn't happened yet, but it's probably inevitable. That's all it takes for her. So, it's sort of like "babies aren't allowed in the gym" in that the coach was just making a point.

idk, would you feel differently if coach had said "since you're tired and not working why don't you go home and come back when you are ready to work hard" or something similar??

 

[gym law mom]

To the OP I would seriously consider looking at other programs. If you feel this gym is ok for now, then I would keep an eye on the class to see how other incidents are handled. While the HC does not work with your dd all the time, policy and attitude tend to "roll down hill." He should have told the girls playing on the bars that if they didn't stop or did it again then they would sit out the rest of the practice or if a parent was there, be sent home. That would have gotten the other girls attention very quickly and things might have stopped there. Sounds like the girls ended up doing 75 suqats and it proved what? Probably most of them are now pretty scared of this coach and thing is may have to work more with him in the future. He was also rather demeaning to one of his own staff with the comment about about the 19 yo(don't remember exact wording). His method of handling the situation was more appropriate to a high school football team than a group of 6/7 yos.

At our former gym, my gymmie was yelled at for doing a "scary yurchenko." She was then banished to another area of the gym to do conditioning and no more vaulting. Did she learn what she had done wrong on the vault? No. She felt humiliated and defeated although didn't let it show. To parents that think tough training(belittling language, yelling, extra conditioning on a regular basis) won't "break" their kid----let me tell you, they all have a breaking point and can only take so much. My gymmie didn't tell me alot of what was said to her and punishments handed out until she had changed gyms. Believe me, I felt like I had really let her down in not pulling her out of there sooner---elite training or not.

 

[mariposa]

idk, would you feel differently if coach had said "since you're tired and not working why don't you go home and come back when you are ready to work hard" or something similar??

I think there is a huge difference between saying "Go home because babies aren't allowed in the gym" and "Since you're tired and not working hard, why don't you go home and come back when you are ready to work hard."

One is using belittling/name calling (which is juvenile behavior, maybe the HC should have followed her own advice and gone home?) and one is stating the facts. She had said she was tired and wanted to go home, wasn't doing what was expected of her. The first statement is basically calling her a "baby" without saying it directly and is meant to make her feel bad. The second is reflecting to her what she had already said (I am tired, I want to go home) and giving her the expectations of what they want her to do when she is there, work hard.

I would be upset by the first one, not the second one.

I find it funny that we as parents tolerate juvenile behavior from coaches (I am speaking in general, I know all parents don't, etc), yet get upset when other girls are acting juvenile towards our girls. Also, how can girls at gyms where belittling, name calling and yelling are commonplace from coaches, be expected to act any different? Interesting question.

 

[mariposa]

DD has been at her current gym now for a whole year and she has never had a deciplinary issue or even not want to participate. She is ususally very well behaved and responds well to corrections.

Which was my point exactly. The HC should know that for whatever reason, she was having an off day and her comment was WAY out of line.

 

[Tim_Dad]

I have to pipe in again... Tim_Dad and Bog. Bog I'm sure knows this, but many of the classes at National and Regional Congresses are on sports psychology, motivating athletes (younger and older), etc.

I can't disagree. But let me take that a step further. Being "certified" doesn't necessarily make one "qualified" either. For example: I have 20+ years in the IT business. I see plenty of "freshly" certified young folks join the ranks that are near-dysfunctional when it comes to problem solving. But! They have a certificate!! Also, In the U.S. you have to be certified and licensed to cut hair. I think you know where I'm going.


Don't get me wrong, I'm glad our gym HC's are all training certified and safety certified. At least someone tried to teach the proper way/ best practices, etc. But that training doesn't guarantee they will follow this advice over their own ideas when working with our kids. We can only hope for the best in that respect.

The 'penance' conditioning I was speaking of in our gym is made to be only motivational. It's like a game. The gymmies try and focus more if they can get away with no additional V-up's. Nobody is singled out and it's never done in a degrading, or punishing way. Thanks for clearing up your meaning though. I think I may have misunderstood your original reply.

I think were on the same page.

 

[sheplaysinthechalk]

I think there is a huge difference between saying "Go home because babies aren't allowed in the gym" and "Since you're tired and not working hard, why don't you go home and come back when you are ready to work hard."

One is using belittling/name calling (which is juvenile behavior, maybe the HC should have followed her own advice and gone home?) and one is stating the facts. She had said she was tired and wanted to go home, wasn't doing what was expected of her. The first statement is basically calling her a "baby" without saying it directly and is meant to make her feel bad. The second is reflecting to her what she had already said (I am tired, I want to go home) and giving her the expectations of what they want her to do when she is there, work hard.

100% agreed! My point was that, yes, HC was a little over the line with the baby comment, but I just don't feel like it's a comment that I (personally) would consider switching gyms over. Like STARMAKER said, her dd is well behaved, and responds well to corrections. And it doesn't seem that this has been a major issue with HC making these comments to her dd specifically on a regular basis.

And it doesn't make the "baby" comment okay, but i'm sure that HC did it for shock value. If the comment was made to my dd, I imagine that she would remember it and never want it to happen again...know what i mean?

 

[mariposa]

sheplaysinthechalk,

I didn't think you were saying it was okay, I was just answering the question about whether it would have been better had she said "you're tired, go home, etc". I took it that you were implying that it would have been upsetting if she said it that way as well, that it was the same thing.

it is hard to have these internet conversations sometimes.

 

[MdGymMom01]

To the OP I would seriously consider looking at other programs. If you feel this gym is ok for now, then I would keep an eye on the class to see how other incidents are handled. While the HC does not work with your dd all the time, policy and attitude tend to "roll down hill." Sounds like the girls ended up doing 75 suqats and it proved what? Probably most of them are now pretty scared of this coach. He was also rather demeaning to one of his own staff with the comment about about the 19 yo(don't remember exact wording). His method of handling the situation was more appropriate to a high school football team than a group of 6/7 yos.

At our former gym, my gymmie was yelled at for doing a "scary yurchenko." She was then banished to another area of the gym to do conditioning and no more vaulting. Did she learn what she had done wrong on the vault? No. She felt humiliated and defeated although didn't let it show. To parents that think tough training(belittling language, yelling, extra conditioning on a regular basis) won't "break" their kid----let me tell you, they all have a breaking point and can only take so much. My gymmie didn't tell me alot of what was said to her and punishments handed out until she had changed gyms. Believe me, I felt like I had really let her down in not pulling her out of there sooner---elite training or not.

I can totally relate to this gym law mom. Our first cheer gym was run by a European acrobatic trained family that came to the US and had a very strict way of coaching. Conditioning, name-calling and belittling was often a common form of punishment for the girls. And most of the girls were ages 5-11. If the girls dropped a stunt or didn't do a BHS correctly they were called names and forced to climb rope or do leg-ups. Hardly ever did the coach explain to the girls what they did wrong so they never know HOW TO CORRECT it. They just learned by trial and error. And don't even get me started with some of the girls that weren't stick thin. The girls that had a little more meat on their bones were called fat and teased about their weight by the coach.

I vividly remember one time my dd started crying because she got kicked in the face stunting (which the coach didn't see) and he immediatley told her "DON'T EVEN START CRYING! I DON'T WANT TO EVER SEE YOU CRYING!" She was 7 years old for pete's sake!!! The funny thing is after that day dd never cried at practice. Probably because she was so scared by him. She would just stare at him with a blank look and when asked a question she would shrug her shoulders and not say a word. We had a hard time when we went to the new cheer gym because dd acted like this with all her coaches. It took her most of that year to open up and to start to trust and communicate again with coaches.

So my point is that words and intimidation do break down a child. So many kids have come out of that gym with tumbling fear issues. Maybe it is coincidence, but I strongly believe that the verbally abusive coaching style deeply affected these kids.

Looking back, I kick myself thinking that I put my dd through that and didn't get her out of that gym sooner. But at least I got her out after 2 years. Some of her friends are going on 4 years over there and I often wonder what their self-seteem is like. I guess the important thing is to always be aware and always watch things. We are the customer in that we have the freedom to go to other gyms.

 

[M23K's]

Her Dad came out of the bleachers, and threw the coach in the pool, and said loudly -- "I DARE you to get out!" Needless to say, he didn't, and was fired the next morning.

Love it!!!

 

[Ingymmom]

umm, ok, I guess this was directed at me , well, I said EXACTLY the same thing that you did in other words.... but was also surprised that 1. the children did not listen when told to stop doing something that the coach may have thought could be dangerous & 2. when they were told their punishment for not listening they stopped to question it.

When I was 6 or 7 - I never would have spoke up/back to an adult that way, and in my home growing up and in my home now raising my own children - this would be considered talking back - ANYWAY, as I said, being that the coach was made out to be very authorative I was surprised by how the children responded. I can see crying or not understanding, even not doing the conditioning - but to speak up just surprised me...

As far as why any parent would want a child trained by this type of person, wellll, I guess you would need to ask the original poster.

Umm Sorry. I respectfully disagree. 6 and 7 yr olds making reasonable assumptions -- ISN'T talking back. If thier normal coach always says 15, it's reasonable for them to assume the same from this coach. He was clearly out of line and a bit full of himself. He acted like a bully. Why any child or parent would want to trian under a guy like that is beyond me.

Maintaining order and control is one thing - but this was just an outright show of authority. If the kids were being disruptive, and not listening after being asked, he should have excused them from the floor. And That's it!

Let me make my point very clear.

** Coaches do NOT have the right, NOR the authority to punish a child. **

You can't force your will on someone elses child. You can't force a child to perform. As a coach, you are paid to show them the way. If they refuse, excuse them from the class. We parents will take care of the punishment part -- thank you very much.

 

[starmaker]

Which was my point exactly. The HC should know that for whatever reason, she was having an off day and her comment was WAY out of line.

That's exactly how I felt. DD is the youngest on team and is just as focused and as hardworking as the older girls. DD coach was trying to get her to smile and participate but whenHC saw dd crying she has no tolerance and did what she does to the older girls. But regardless of she could of handled it better or not I believe dd learned a valuable lesson. Liv is the type that will say for example I don't want to eat breakfast and I'll say fine but you'll be hungry in school later and she'll sit down and eat it. She does that kind of stuff all the time. She says she doesn't want something but fears disappointment and will end up doing it. So when HC said go home she was pleading to stay but I took her home anyway. I don't think a situation like this will happen again.

I've also realized that no gym is perfect and you just have to weigh the pros and cons and make the best decision. For now we are staying put because dd is happy training there.

To the OP if dd has little to no interaction with this coach right now in her training I would let it go, especially if your dd is happy training there.

Well good luck to however you choose to handle this. Only you know what is best for your child.

 

[Tim_Dad]

umm, ok, I guess this was directed at me , well, I said EXACTLY the same thing that you did in other words.... but was also surprised that 1. the children did not listen when told to stop doing something that the coach may have thought could be dangerous & 2. when they were told their punishment for not listening they stopped to question it.

Nope... not directed at you at all. FWIW: I agree with you.

 

[Gymnasticsgirl521]

WOW sounds like a rough practice, but I think I would want to hear both sides of the story. I know things look far worse from the viewing area than inside the gym. I have to say since 3 DD has been a part of team conditioning for team mates miss-behavior. Yep 3 and they had to run laps then moved to push ups, v-ups etc. I have to say the peer pressure has worked with them. If DD sees one of her friends not doing things she will walk up and say something to them. She is not afraid at 5 to tell a 9 year old to stop she doesn't want to do v-ups because they don't want to work. The coach is encouraging that they communicate and if they see each other doing these things to be a leader and step in. That being said the HC in this situation I think went a bit far. Sounds like things were not going as he had hopped and didn't know how to deal with these little girls who did what they had usually done for thier coach.

I would monitor the situation, I would not be in the market for a new gym but I would just make sure I am aware of what is going on. I know our Pre-team has had to do more conditioning this year than the past 6 years all together. That being said each group is different.

I do have to say I wish our HC was a bit tougher on our Lev 4's. She lets our L4 HC be the bad guy and then she babies her babies (that is what she calls her youngest level 4's) a bit much for my taste. DD will milk it to the hilt and then when her regular coach sees it watch. I have even told DD to do something that she was milking for the HC and I got yelled out because DD was a baby and didn't need to do it as far as the rest of the girls at her level. AHHHHHH

We all have things we would like to change. Good luck with what ever you choose.

 

[Momto3]

I personally have never had a problem with his coaching style even when gymmie has gotten in trouble (but boy am I glad she wasn't at the makeup). Do you think he went overboard or is this what we should expect in a Olympic potential type sport?

IMHO, he went overboard.

I find it interesting that we should find this behavior acceptable even for an "Olympic potential sport".

I have yet to sign or read anything in a Team Handbook that states we should expect verbal abuse or physical training to include "punishment".

As far as the comments regarding 'talking back" etc. That is open to interpretation. I take the comment the girls made as pretty normal given the circumstances. I imagine they tried to explain why they had stopped in order to avoid any further excalation of the situation. But, apparently they were to keep going until he told them to stop. Hmm, how many would it have taken prior to stating the number of 60. Would having them all in tears have been enough for him to feel like he had their "respect"?

I hardly doubt they swang on the bars just to tick off the coach. Maybe the coach didn't have a good handle on the group to begin with and lost it. It is possible that he's the one with the problem, not the gymnasts.

From the sounds of it, this isn't the first time. And most likely will not be the last. Trust me, as the girls get older and he hasn't learned another method he will slowly erode the relationship he has with many of his gymnasts and they will lose all respect for him.