Reverse Physical Psychology

[Stretchsportguy]

To make a donkey move forward, you pull back on it.

Sometimes you can get a person to do something by telling them or convincing them to do the opposite.

I have used reverse physical psychology successfully with various gymnasts at different times.

Sometimes it gets them out of a bad habit. Or a slump on a skill progression.

Sometimes its having them twist the other way. Or doing it on the other side. Or using the other arm.

Later they go back to the original side. But not always...

When was the last time you used this useful teaching technique?

What is your philosophy and experience with this?

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i regret i don't coach donkeys...

 

[Stretchsportguy]

A poetic answer to an analogy is a metaphor that reflects the character of its author. Thank you for your thoughtful post, dunno.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

It's tricky; it can definitely work in some contexts, but you gotta know what you're doing. You can't use it all the time.

One of my favorite instances where I've used it was on a 13-year-old girl trying to learn a back tuck on floor. This girl generally had an attitude problem, and had also worked with another coach who had a tendency to say she would spot a skill and then pull back and let the kid do it on their own.

The conversation went something along these lines:
Me: "That last one would have been fine without a spot."
Her: "I'm not doing it again then."
Me: "Excuse me? Why not?"
Her: "Because you're not going to spot me."
Me: "You've done ONE that would make it without a spot today. I'm spotting you on the next three or four whether you want me to or not."
Her: "Um.... can you just stand there and not spot me on this next one?"
Me: "No, I'm going to spot you."
Her: "Come on, you said I would have been fine on that last one."
Me: *sigh* "I guess, if you insist."


EDIT: To clarify; the reason I so seldom use reverse psychology in coaching is that in order for it to work, the kid has to see you as, on some level, an adversary. It's easy to see why a parent might use this on a teenage kid or why a teacher might use it on a student, but in coaching, one assumes the kids are there because they want to be there, and that they are working out because they enjoy it and want to improve. So why should I be an adversary to them? Their goals and mine coincide perfectly.

Generally, if stuff like this works on a kid, that kid is most likely about to quit anyway (as was the case with the girl in my example)

 

[Stretchsportguy]

Thank you for that awesome post, Geoffrey Taucer. Point well taken. Please note this thread is also about reverse PHYSICAL psychology. This is where you reverse ways, limbs, positions, sides, etc., on skills to get the gymnast to improve on their normal side. For example, you might work a left gymnast having trouble on a left aireal cartwheel on a right sided aireal cartwheel and next thing you know they get their normal left side the same day. That's an example of reverse physical psychology. This is a play on words. In other words what works for the mind may also work in a different way for the body.

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Thank you for that awesome post, Geoffrey Taucer. Point well taken. Please note this thread is also about reverse PHYSICAL psychology. This is where you reverse ways, limbs, positions, sides, etc., on skills to get the gymnast to improve on their normal side. For example, you might work a left gymnast having trouble on a left aireal cartwheel on a right sided aireal cartwheel and next thing you know they get their normal left side the same day. That's an example of reverse physical psychology. This is a play on words. In other words what works for the mind may also work in a different way for the body.

I'd say the only time I really use anything like that for physical corrections is for general tightness (ie "I'm going to try to bend your knees -- don't let me.")

 

[tumblerK]

I used to have a whole lot of trouble with cartwheels on beam because I would leave my hips turned outward until my first foot was down. My coach tried a few things to get me to understand how to correct it. The one I remember most- she told me to do a standing roundoff step out.

Does that count?

 

[gymjourneymom]

It's tricky; it can definitely work in some contexts, but you gotta know what you're doing. You can't use it all the time.

One of my favorite instances where I've used it was on a 13-year-old girl trying to learn a back tuck on floor. This girl generally had an attitude problem, and had also worked with another coach who had a tendency to say she would spot a skill and then pull back and let the kid do it on their own.

The conversation went something along these lines:
Me: "That last one would have been fine without a spot."
Her: "I'm not doing it again then."
Me: "Excuse me? Why not?"
Her: "Because you're not going to spot me."
Me: "You've done ONE that would make it without a spot today. I'm spotting you on the next three or four whether you want me to or not."
Her: "Um.... can you just stand there and not spot me on this next one?"
Me: "No, I'm going to spot you."
Her: "Come on, you said I would have been fine on that last one."
Me: *sigh* "I guess, if you insist."


EDIT: To clarify; the reason I so seldom use reverse psychology in coaching is that in order for it to work, the kid has to see you as, on some level, an adversary. It's easy to see why a parent might use this on a teenage kid or why a teacher might use it on a student, but in coaching, one assumes the kids are there because they want to be there, and that they are working out because they enjoy it and want to improve. So why should I be an adversary to them? Their goals and mine coincide perfectly.

Generally, if stuff like this works on a kid, that kid is most likely about to quit anyway (as was the case with the girl in my example)

Interesting post GT. I am glad that you thought about this particular gymnast enough to figure out what made her tick & beat her at her own game. The way you describe her she doesn't necessarily sound to me like she has an attitude problem, unless there were other types of acting out or disrespect. Sounds to me like she had a lack of self confidence & fear issues. I'm glad you were patient with her. Believe me, if she's like my DD she doesn't want to have those feelings either & she probably doesn't understand them or how know to get over them. This confusion in her mind may have come across as "attitude". The spot or no spot struggle sounds like it was just her trying to gain control of a situation, in which she still felt like she was out of control or fearful. You helped her gain control in her mind & that was a just what she needed. I applaud coaches who really go the extra mile to see the individual & work with them in a unique way.:applause:

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Interesting post GT. I am glad that you thought about this particular gymnast enough to figure out what made her tick & beat her at her own game. The way you describe her she doesn't necessarily sound to me like she has an attitude problem, unless there were other types of acting out or disrespect. Sounds to me like she had a lack of self confidence & fear issues. I'm glad you were patient with her. Believe me, if she's like my DD she doesn't want to have those feelings either & she probably doesn't understand them or how know to get over them. This confusion in her mind may have come across as "attitude". The spot or no spot struggle sounds like it was just her trying to gain control of a situation, in which she still felt like she was out of control or fearful. You helped her gain control in her mind & that was a just what she needed. I applaud coaches who really go the extra mile to see the individual & work with them in a unique way.:applause:

Oh, yes, when I say she had an attitude problem, this example isn't what I was talking about; she was much more civil and respectful during this exchange than she normally was.

EIDT: also, stretch and dunno: further comments relating to the topic of the thread are welcome here, but if you must continue the insults and bickering, please do so via private message.

 

[Billy]

My DD is struggling with her press handstand. She always makes the same mistakes. She drags her left foot and doesn't open her left shoulder enough, causing her to collapse sideways to the left. Would you then suggest something to make her fall to the right instead, hoping that instead she'll find the middle?

 

[gymjourneymom]

Oh, yes, when I say she had an attitude problem, this example isn't what I was talking about; she was much more civil and respectful during this exchange than she normally was.

EIDT: also, stretch and dunno: further comments relating to the topic of the thread are welcome here, but if you must continue the insults and bickering, please do so via private message.

Maybe she was more civil with you because you took the time to care about her & she could tell you respected her. One must always give respect in order to get it back. Thanks for showing her respect GT, I'm sure it meant a lot to her!

 

[Stretchsportguy]

Hi Shawn. Your request for opinions to help your daughter repair her press handstand is dependent on many variables such as your daughter's status in technique, flexibility, and strength. I would have to be there to zero in on what to do.

I suggest that if your daughter is not conditioning handstand presses as close as possible against a wall, that she begin to do so immediately. On the press down she should only feather the floor with her pointed toes before pressing back up. If she is not already doing this then it should take about six weeks to correct this issue practicing two sets of ten four times per week. If she is already using this exercise then supplement this with straddle presses to handstand on a low beam starting with the legs as high as possible in the straddle. She must not touch the beam with legs or feet pressing up or down. I recommend one set of ten four times per week. I am looking for ears touching arms, head inside arms and back flat on the way up and into handstand. She should look in on the press downs and see her stomach.

 

[gymdog]

My DD is struggling with her press handstand. She always makes the same mistakes. She drags her left foot and doesn't open her left shoulder enough, causing her to collapse sideways to the left. Would you then suggest something to make her fall to the right instead, hoping that instead she'll find the middle?

I would do more conditioning of the right side. It sounds like she has a strength imbalance. Is she a righty or a lefty?

 

[Billy]

I would do more conditioning of the right side. It sounds like she has a strength imbalance. Is she a righty or a lefty?

She's a righty.

She seems to be able to start the press from a straddle sit but she can't get her feet past the floor. So basically, she lifts and presses until she can straddle stand at which point she jumps to handstand. She can't seem to get through that middle transition without the straddle stand in between. She can do that whole press handstand with a spot, though. On the way back down, she can control it fairly well but then plops to the floor. She can't hold the straddle sit keeping her bottom and legs up. I think the problem is probably a combination of strength and coordination.

 

[gymdog]

Does she have a middle split flat? For me, it's hard to press from a sit anymore because I'm not flexible enough to rotate my hip flexors as much and to do it in more of a pike I don't really have the strength anymore. I can do a handstand, press down until my feet are just in front of my arms, and press back a couple times, but I can't sit and get my feet through to there. But anyway, that's a good thing to work on. Try to do handstand and stop the feet with the bottom still up. If she can already press down to sit (this is a bit easier). If she can't press down to straddle sit without falling back on her bottom, she should work on that. That will help the coordination.

As far as the strength on the side, sometimes there is an imbalance. My left side is way stronger, even though I'm a righty, but I twist left. Years of twisting left and driving my left leg into right ROs and switch leaps(crunches the left side of the back) have left that side a lot stronger, although it doesn't matter to me now. The muscles on my left core are actually noticeably overdeveloped (I tend towards building muscle) if you know what to look for. But she may be stronger on her right side, or her left. Or maybe she needs to condition both sides and the left fall is just an idiosyncracy. If she lays on either side and someone holds her legs, and she lifts up off the ground (side lift) she may find one side is easier or both sides are equally the same. Arms should be by the ears and lift with the body (try not to use them to lift as much as the core). Either way it is best to be able to do this and lift up the whole core to the hip, but I have found many gymnasts who have never done this much and can't do that. And for me I can easily do that on my left side 30 times but 10 would be a struggle on the right because my right side is much weaker. That doesn't really matter to me, but theoretically it could be an issue.