Women Round off - flick (round off bhs)

[Flossyduck]

Hi

My daughter is struggling with her round off flick. I think the flick is a BHS in the US

She has a very nice round off and she had a decent standing flick back in spring. once competition season was over they spent pretty much the whole summer on conditioning and basics and starting to look at up-training for things like giants and cast-handstands.

Basics included lots of round offs and round-off jump backwards on to a wedge in a dish position.

Come to end of summer and prep for competition season and daughter's flick has gone missing. After literally hundreds and hundreds of round-off jump to dish, all she can do is round off and jump to dish. her body seems to completely resist doing a roundoff jump to arch (not surprisingly?!) She's getting upset because she needs to be able to do roundoff flick, flick, flick by march and she is being told that she is falling behind that plan.

The coach's response is to keep going back to basics ie. roundoff jump back on to a wedge in a dish...

So I have two questions really:

Is this roundoff, jump back in to dish actually helpful? Instinct tells me it is counter productive but most gyms here seem to do this as a drill. She must have done literally hundreds and hundreds of the things and it doesn't seem to be helping.

Is there anything I can say to help her work out what to do. I told her to ask the coach what she is doing wrong but she was too scared and is getting more and more frustrated and they are starting to get impatient. I've tried talking to the coach who told me she is jumping in a dish shape - er yeah!

I feel like telling her not to do any more round off jump backs until she can do her round off flick as I really think it is making things so much worse, but I'm not a coach, don't know why that is a useful drill, and just don't know what to say.

I sort of know you will say leave it to the coach, but it's been a few weeks now and it's not improving and I wondered if you have any tips as to what she should visualise or think about doing/feeling?
Thank you.

 

[Mack_the_Ripper]

Round off, jump to dish shape is a very common drill for round off flicks, as you have noted. It is actually very useful for shaping - the gymnast's feet must get in front of her at the end of the round off so that she can propel herself backwards with a lot of power. You can see in this image of Aly Raisman as she finishes her round off that she is basically in a dish shape. Her knees are pretty bent because she is going so quickly, but that is basically the shape these drills are meant to achieve.

Your daughter is having problems with converting that dish shape off the ground into an arch in the air: here is Aly at the beginning of her flic. Normally girls would do those round-off drills alongside RO-flics, so that they don't develop fear problems. Maybe they had your daughter stop doing RO-flics in order to fix a bad habit like jumping into her flic with bent knees, or undercutting due to a weak round off. Now that she has a good round off, the flic should come with time...it's important to go slowly and surely with such a major skill like this. And it's pretty scary, too - I bet she'll get it given time.

 

[Flossyduck]

Thank you for replying. I posted following another stress/tearful journey home so I didn't word it too well.

My daughter switched gym at the end of the competition season in spring. The feedback from her coach was that she had a 'fantastic' roundoff an a 'decent' flic and that there was 'no reason why those shouldn't join up nicely in autumn'. But she went on to say that they were going to spend the summer going back to basics - the whole group did the same thing, I'm pretty certain it wasn't to try and fix anything specific to my daughter.

The didn't train flics alongside the roundoff drills. They uptrained some other skills in preparation for next year.

She wasn't the only girl who struggled to get their flic back when they started preparing routines for competition later this month. Of the five of them, only two got it in time for the first competition. She is now the only one who still doesn't have her flic back though - it will just about happen (she'll manage one or two) then it's gone by the next session an she's diving flat on to her back. Her roundoff is still very good, she does finish in the right position according to her coach, and she can do roundoff jump to dish in her sleep. As she now needs to grasp roundoff jump to arch I'm just anxious when I see them doing endless roundoff jump to dish drills that it's really not helping, but don't know what to do and don't feel I can interfere.

We've had a little chat today. I showed her the images and we've been doing some visualisation. Tonight is another session, we'll have to see how it goes and I won't watch!
Thanks again

 

[Faith]

Has she ever had it? A couple of the girls this age at DD's gym have grown as well over the summer, and the ro flic is the thing that seems to go missing- a few extra inches in height can totally change the feel. And yes, they take them back to drills. This is the second time one particular girl has lost it, so they do get it back from the drills.

With my DD, when she was initially learning both standing and ro flic, she was also trying to hold the dish shape as she'd been told. I watched one practice, and she was basically throwing herself backwards in a dish shape, so pretty much trying to do a straight somi :lol:. Although I have a policy with no gym at home (except stretching /conditioning if *she* initiates it), what I did was sit down with her and we looked through some youtube tutorials. It was a bit lightbulb as she saw how the body goes from dish to arch and back- she learns very visually and its easier for her to see than try to explain.

March is actually quite far away in gymnastics terms. DD had her standing flic from the leaping in the air onto her head within about 6 weeks, her team mates got it much quicker. Once they do the ro-flic the multiple flics come much more easily. I always point out how far she's come- it's 6 months til march, when I look at what my dd was doing 6 months ago she's made amazing progress. it just seems slow and frustrating at the time!!

 

[Flossyduck]

No she hasn't ever had a ro flic - although it's been close (just light suport), but she did have a flic. She has hardly gornw this summer though - a few mm.

She is doing exactly what your daughter did - chucking herself backwards in a dish shape and ending up on her back! Coach has her do the ro dish jump with socks under her chin to keep her head tucked in, which makes it doubly hard to then to switch to an arch back as she's busy trying to keep her chin tucked in - it would be funny if it weren't causing so much frustration.

I agree that six months is a long time and she has only been doing gym for just over a year, so her progress has been pretty amazing to date, but her coaches are putting the pressure on over who is moving on and who is not getting skills quickly enough - - it's pretty competative and she feels vulnerable because they have told her she needs to hurry up and get this skill or she'll be behind.

We looked as some youtube vids today - think it helped.

Wow I wish we could ban gym from home, but she has homework sheets to do every day - up to an hour of exercises . Luckily she's the one always nagging me to do them with her whilst I'm trying to get other things done but she was happy when I suggested we sit and watch youtube instead of doing her range and conditioning today.

 

[Kiwi]

She is doing exactly what your daughter did - chucking herself backwards in a dish shape and ending up on her back! Coach has her do the ro dish jump with socks under her chin to keep her head tucked in, which makes it doubly hard to then to switch to an arch back as she's busy trying to keep her chin tucked in - it would be funny if it weren't causing so much frustration.

This sounds weird. My coach got me doing jump-back drills by lifting hips up towards the ceiling, and moving head and arms as a unit (so I could watch my hands land when doing the actual flic - not the same as throwing the head back). I never did jump-backs landing in dish shape. To get that we did snap-down drills. I don't understand your coach's drill, it sounds confusing to me.

 

[Moxiegrl83]

I don't understand the sock under the chin either. When DD practices BHS, and BWO, her coaches want her to watch her hands. I don't see how you could do a BHS with your chin down. Sounds pretty tough...

 

[Faith]

The sock under the chin thing is to to stop them throwing their heads back- it used to be a common thing back in the 80's . Not sure whether it's useful myself though.

DD was leaping up straight in the air, but managing to rotate 180 on to her head- they had to take her right back to basics. Funnily enough the session I watched was the same session her friend "got" her standing flic on floor, I remember thinking DD was so far behind! But this is the same girl who has now lost her ro-flic, so they're back to the same level again . It's so back and forward. I know DD's gym are totally accepting, have reassured friends parents it's totally normal, happens all the time, and they just take them back to where they're comfortable and build again.

Presumably though, if your DD's gym are producing elites and olympic hopefuls, there's some decent coaching going on and they must know what they're doing on some level. It does sound quite pressured, but maybe that's the elite track for you? Is the homework just on rest days?

 

[Flossyduck]

I do trust the coaches and I know this is a popular drill - I guess I just wonder whether it's right for my daughter right now. Given that she has a good roundoff and always gets praised for her roundoff I can't really see the point of still doing so many reps of that dish jump back. If she is trying to get her flic back she needs some drills to help get the jump to arch... Sometimes it seems to be that when they need to work with one girl on something, all the rest are sent to do the round off jump to a mat thing because it's a safe drill they can do unsupervised, but I didn't say that

Homework is every day. It is tough, but actually daughter loves that side of it, she's a real grafter and very conscientious. She's no time for girls who don't work hard enough lol!

She is feeling the pressure over this one though as the others all have it and are moving on to multiple flics and flic tuck back even...

Good to here that it comes and goes with others, I'll tell her that.

 

[Moxiegrl83]

It definitely comes and goes. I think that's with a lot of skills. One of the first things I noticed in my DD's skills was she would "get" something, only to lose it the next class. Her back bend for example...got it with the HC, did them all through class and after, came home and showed Daddy, got it on video....2 days later in class couldn't do it. So it can get frustrating for sure, but when I talked to one of the coaches she said it's totally normal. Happens all the time.

 

[Faith]

How on earth does she fit in the homework on training days? Kudos to her for managing it!

 

[Flossyduck]

She gets dressed super quick and spends half an hour practicing various handstands - straddle press, pike-up etc while waiting for the school bus. Her teacher allows her to stay inside for 15 mins at lunch time to do v-sits and other carpet excercises (but she tends to spend all the rest of break doing handstands, chin ups and things for fun in any case!) She then stretches before bed.

On a night when she hasn't had training obviously it's a lot easier...

When we were camping in summer she was over-stretching her splits between rocks with towels on, or stuffed hold-alls and had all her friends on the campsite joining in with conditioning and handstand practice outside the shower block and sprints on the beach. Amazingly they all went along with it!

I don't remind her at all and if she skips because she's tired that's absolutely fine by me!

 

[marie83]

It is a very common thing for the standing flick to come and go, especially if they are still relatively new to it - it is also pretty common for gymnasts to take some time to understand linking it together.

Some things I've noticed that help:

1) Gymnast should have a good roundoff
2) Gymnast should have a good standing flick

Drills I use to link the 2 together

1) Roundoff jump back onto a stack of mats, approximately hip height to the gymnast. The gymnast should take off in a slightly dished shape, but convert to an tight arch shape in the air and land flat. We tell the gymnasts to land as far onto the mats as possible which encourages a good long flick. The gymnast must be leaning backwards at the end of the roundoff.

2) Cartwheel step in flick with support

3) Roundoff jump to land in tight arch in coaches arms. Coach can then correct shapes and place gymnasts hands on the floor to step out (rather than teaching the gymnast to pike down)

4) Multiple flicks down a slope

5) Place 2 coaching blocks lengthways next to each other (end to end) then place 2 safety mats at the end of this set up. Gymnast performs roundoff off the end of the blocks, straight into the flick on the mats.
I don't know why this one helps, but it is one of our gymnast's favourites! I think because the mats are sturdy, but soft enough that they don't hurt themselves and it gives them extra time to think about getting their feet to the floor in the correct position.

If I remember correctly your DD is at a fantastic club, so I should think they know what they are doing! However this approach doesn't seem to be working, perhaps it is best to approach the coach again and just say dd seems to be unable to understand the shapes she needs to make and is there anything else she can do?
If coach has said dd is falling behind then surely they should be looking for extra drills for her to do - I know I would be!

Good luck! Sorry none of my drills are any use to practice at home, but perhaps dd could suggest one to the coach if she likes the sound of it! (My gymnasts have done this in the past and I'm more than happy to try it if I think it might be beneficial!)

 

[Flossyduck]

Thank you Marie, that is really helpful.

You're right that my daughter is at a great club and the coaches are very experienced. I don't doubt that the drills she has been doing are tried and tested but this particular gymnast is not getting what she needs from them. Jumping back and down to land in a dish on a floor mat just means that she is not learning to make the transition from dish to arch and she is jumping back in a dish and landing her attempts at the flic on her back.

They do the ro off the end of the bloc, that's fine. They also do them between blocs to ensure they are straight. She has also been jumping back in to the coaches arms on her turn, while the others are doing a ro flick on their turn. Her ro is quite powerful, with a good snap down and rebound, so it may be that it's quite scary to try and carry that through...

Your drill of then jumping up on to a stack of mats makes sense to me.

I do worry that they have told her she needs to hurry up and get that skill as she is falling behind, but don't seem to be thinking around what might be going on and trying to adjust anything for her. My daughter knows that she is jumping back in a dish but can't seem to work out the change to arch.

I must pluck up the courage to speak to scary coach lady about it and will tell her what daughter says the problem is and that she would like some help with it. I really hate her to think I'm telling her how to do her job....

 

[Faith]

Just one thing following on from Marie's post- when she does the ro jump back to dish, are you sure she's not supposed to be lifting her hips? So sort of dished, but bum actually off the mat. I vaguely recall some sort of drill, very like jumping back to dish, but arms by ears, chin tucked in, then an arch from lower ribcage to feet.

Good luck with the scary coach lady. I don't think you can rush gymnastics, so telling her she's getting behind isn't really helpful, especially when they're taking their time (not a bad thing) with drills. It will come though. When I saw DD doing jump back to head I honestly thought she'd never get it, especially when the coaches then made her miss most of the drill stations (probably because she was downright dangerous ), and only do them spotted. That was back in may/June, she had standing flics and ro-flic by the end of July. When I watch practice progress seems so slow, you wonder how they ever get anything!

 

[Flossyduck]

Many thanks for all the comments on here, daughter made a big break through this week

I showed her the images Mack linked and got her to try and visualise the change. We read through all your comments and looked at some you-tube tutorials and I just reassured her that her body is perfectly capable and ready and it will come.

On Saturday she did a couple of standing flics on the tumble track and did a ro flic on the fast track (the rubbery one!). Everything sort of took off from there and after a good session last night, when she did two ro flics with light support on the tumble track she came home today having done them on her own.

From the little bit I saw they were really nice looking - with pointed toes and a lovely shape and the coach said she was landing them 'falling backwards' which I understand is a good thing?! So she was pleased and daughter got lots of praise for her hard work.

Can't believe how quickly that all happened in the end, like something just clicked. I don't know if the comments helped, but actually she was really made up that people cared enough to try and help and she kept asking if there were any more comments. Even in her sleepy state tonight she said I mustn't forget to tell you she can do it!

I wont tell her just yet that it may go again...

 

[LiveLoveTumble]

Congratulations! I remember the first time I got my round off flic, it was so exciting!