WAG Seeking advice ...very lengthy, sorry

[CoachMeg]

It seems that your daughter is extremely talented and definitely headed toward the path of an elite. As a coach, I can definitely relate to coaching 9 year olds and everything that comes with it. That said, a lot of the 9 year olds I coach are between levels 4-6. So the coaching methods used between me and your daughter's coaches are probably vastly different. We do have a 12 year old level 10 at our gym, and her coaches are a lot harder on her than the 12 year old level 5s. While keeping the gymnast's age in mind is very important when coaching, you also have to change your coaching style as you train different level gymnasts. The upper level coaches at my gym are very strict on our level 10 and she puts in a lot of training hours and conditioning and corrections and flexibility, even though she's only 12. It seems to me that your daughter's coaches are just trying to train her as a very high level gymnast, and with that comes some tough practices. It's not going to be all games and praise when you're working with those higher levels. When you're working with compulsories (which is what I do), you coach mainly by praise, and then add in a correction or two (for example "I loved how pointed your toes were and how straight your legs were, but next time keep your head in"). However in the upper levels (9/10/elite), the praise isn't as constant. You might here 30 corrections before you hear a single compliment and that's just because of how hard the skills and also because you want to train your higher level gymnasts to strive for perfection. If I trained my level 3s like that, they'd quit the sport in a week. But if you baby-fy your elites, you're risking injury as well as a non-perfectionist training attitude. Not that praise isn't important, because it is VERY important. But it comes in different doses the higher you train. Maybe her coaches are too caught up in training her and see her potential that they are constantly pushing her to get new skills, and they forget to praise her for her accomplishments.

I would not jump to conclusions and assume they are mentally abusing her. If she were a level 4 and they were coaching her like that, I would be more concerned. But given her high level and potential, I just think they pushing her through skills and levels maybe a little too fast than what she is comfortable with, which is causing her stress. She's probably throwing these huge skills that few other girls in her gym are doing and expecting/wanting a lot of praise but instead getting corrections and then a harder skill to try, which is causing her stress and making her feel like she'll never please them.

My advice to you is to go watch one of her practices (or maybe a couple), and seeing how they treat her. If they're yelling at her constantly then I would pull her out immediately and take her to a new gym. But if they're just pushing her harder than the other girls, I would try to make her understand that they just think she's super talented and want her to go as far as she can in the sport. Training to be an elite is not easy! Especially at such a young age.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

very good ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[munchkin3]

Gym peeps, the people pleasing thing is hard for kids under a huge amount of pressure. If after watching some practices, everything seems in order (hopefully) then certainly a talk with the coaches just to remind them where you all are coming from is important.
Bottom line, she must be happy, and she must be enjoying gymnastics training for the most part. Obviously there are days where everything is just plain awful.

It's so true coachmeg, every time girls move up a compulsory level, the first week it's tears and running out because the coaches get harder and tougher every level.....not to mention the conditioning....L3 vs. L5 is vastly different and of course most L3 are 7ish, and the L5 are 11ish.....

Something is not right though, and you must get to the bottom of it....I really hope you can solve this for your little one....such a talent can't get ruined!!!! (Let alone a child's self esteem!)

 

[COz]

I have to say that the responses have floored me. I cannot imagine that DDs coaches would intentionally hurt her.

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that it *was* a bad situation because of the coaches, but it is certainly an option and something that you can quickly rule out by watching as you plan to do.
For us, at some point the amount of yelling (amongst other things) crossed some magical line. Her teacher was a friend of mine, who loved my child and I absolutely believe was not intentionally trying to harm my child or any of the others. Her approach was in reality harming them though and she proved unable to modify her approach. Many parents attempted to speak to her and instead of listening to their concerns she just got angry and *they* became the crazy ones.

Again, not saying that this is your situation. Just a bad situation to look out for.
It sounds at least like they have listened to you which is a good start.

Are you in contact with any of the parents of other gymnasts who have left/quit?

 

[SignHere]

Good luck, gym Peeps! I wish you and your DD all the best.

When you look at the numbers of gymnasts in the upper levels, there are approximately 3,000 level 9 gymnasts, 1,600 level 10 gymnasts and only 79 elite gymnasts. (That was 5 years ago).

There is a reason for the huge gap in the numbers. The mental pressure on these young ladies is immense.

A friend's DD is training at an elite gym, and the coaching is much less praise driven than at my daughter's regular JO gym. It makes me wonder if the coaches are trying to develop mental toughness in the gymnasts - or see who can handle the stress?

 

[munchkin3]

Mental toughness......can it be developed in a positive way, or must it be created in a negative way?
A friend's mom put it to me this way......it is better to fear the coach than the skill. There are many coaches out there that think this way. When you ask a kid to do a tripple flipping whatever, the kid knows they could get hurt very badly, but they do it anyway....is this from fear? Or is it WANTING to? (I don't agree with my friend)
I think elite gymnasts have a degree of brainwashing that must occur in order to WANT it. Any normal person would say no.
But I do think it is very possible to have mental toughness in a POSITIVE way. This is when the athlete/coach relationship is absolutely KEY and is based on respect.
I don't know, I could be way off here, but it seems that most elites started off with a different coach. There was probably a switch made to find a better coach/athlete team in order to make it all the way......this is what the OP asked when she said she was not sure if the gym was able to handle her......maybe they are not, and if DD is exhibiting breakdowns, perhaps something different needs to happen in the not too distant future.....
Good luck gym peeps......remember we are all here to help.

 

[gympeeps]

Realistically it could have nothing to do with the coaches. But if she is perceiving them as being disappointed in her then she believes they are disappointed in her even if they are not. Seeing a counselor and having a heart to heart with her coaches might help her realize how well she is really doing and help her to work through this. I think there are red flags to the extent that your dd can't keep going like this because it is not healthy for her to have this kind of stress at this age. But that doesn't mean that there is some horrible thing going on with her coaches.

Thank u for this post. As I when I spoke to coach, coach was initially defensive and felt attacked. It is always touchy as I understand they are always under scrutiny from parents. I politely tried to explain that I wasnt placing blame, that although they may not have intended to make her feel this way, that she perceives that they dont believe in her, and that is the part that must be dealt with. This calmed the conversation, but just as i thought i was getting somewhere, then it quickly digressed into coach comparing DDs skill acquisition to another girl at her level (this girl is 13 btw). I will never understand why coaches are always telling parents not to compare their daughter to anyone else, but they do it all the time....sorry...I'm going off point....but, could DD be hearing this in the gym? Or overhearing coaches talking? Maybe putting this on herself? She is very competitive.


i talked to DD at length tonight, and im thinking her self doubt doesn't seem like this is an acute problem, but more like a conclusion she has come to over time. I have moved my schedule around and will be able to observe at least three practices this week and see what is going on.

 

[gympeeps]

It seems that your daughter is extremely talented and definitely headed toward the path of an elite. As a coach, I can definitely relate to coaching 9 year olds and everything that comes with it. That said, a lot of the 9 year olds I coach are between levels 4-6. So the coaching methods used between me and your daughter's coaches are probably vastly different. We do have a 12 year old level 10 at our gym, and her coaches are a lot harder on her than the 12 year old level 5s. While keeping the gymnast's age in mind is very important when coaching, you also have to change your coaching style as you train different level gymnasts. The upper level coaches at my gym are very strict on our level 10 and she puts in a lot of training hours and conditioning and corrections and flexibility, even though she's only 12. It seems to me that your daughter's coaches are just trying to train her as a very high level gymnast, and with that comes some tough practices. It's not going to be all games and praise when you're working with those higher levels. When you're working with compulsories (which is what I do), you coach mainly by praise, and then add in a correction or two (for example "I loved how pointed your toes were and how straight your legs were, but next time keep your head in"). However in the upper levels (9/10/elite), the praise isn't as constant. You might here 30 corrections before you hear a single compliment and that's just because of how hard the skills and also because you want to train your higher level gymnasts to strive for perfection. If I trained my level 3s like that, they'd quit the sport in a week. But if you baby-fy your elites, you're risking injury as well as a non-perfectionist training attitude. Not that praise isn't important, because it is VERY important. But it comes in different doses the higher you train. Maybe her coaches are too caught up in training her and see her potential that they are constantly pushing her to get new skills, and they forget to praise her for her accomplishments.

Coach Meg your reply is awesome. it made me think of so many things. Yes DDs coaches have to set high expectations in order for her to reach them, I actually think she likes this. This makes her feel like they think she can do it. What she doesn't like is if it takes her more than her normal time to get going on a skill, she feels they are quick to assume she won't get it, and so she starts doubting herself. And we are talking about big skills. She is very determined. In our bedtime talks, i have found myself saying "no matter what anyone else thinks, if u believe u can do it, then eventually, you will!" Rome wasnt built in a day! i know it is wrong to undermine the coach, but my mother taught me this, and it is true in all aspects of life...u must believe in yourself.

DD is smart. once i noticed a coach being really tough on her, even made her cry, and i asked her about it. her response was, Mom...shes the one whos trying to help me. That's why this is so weird, this a kid who normally likes the attention, likes to be pushed.

it seems that the more challenging, but consistent and structured practice is, the better she actually does. I will be thinking on your post tonight, I know you are so right.

 

[gympeeps]

[

Are you in contact with any of the parents of other gymnasts who have left/quit?[/QUOTE]


Not too much, fb only.

 

[gympeeps]

Thanks CB community for all the support and advice. It has opened my mind greatly. You have helped me to consider so many different things that I hadn't thought of before.

As I am mulling things over, I have a question to coaches....

We do live in a 2 hour proximity to at least two powerhouse gyms. Is it possible that our good natured coaches feel pressured for DD to keep up with the girls doing tops/hopes/elite at these gyms....maybe an expectation that was never voiced to DD....but maybe subconsciencly? Of course, gymnastics is a small world, by this time we all know who each other are. DD does not always beat these girls, but we are always thrilled if she is hanging in there, nipping at their heels. Maybe I'm making this up, but I've tried to put myself in coaches shoes. Crazy kid who chucks skills, able to handle long hours, bored easily....never had a young one at this point...what the heck do they do with her. Surely, they have done fabulous, done their best and have been learning along the way. But without doubt, they must feel personal pressure for her success....is it possible she truly is not where they wanted her to be....

 

[gymdilettante]

Are there any othergirls possibly on the elite track, ideally older than your daughter, left at the gym? You could take them out to coffee and broach the subject of their daughters' experiences without going into too much detail about your issue if possible. But maybe the people who have left are even better sources since they will likely speak more freely and you won't have to worry about gym politics.

I may be wrong but i wanted to note it is possible that your daughter is placing a lot of this pressure on herself and the gym isn't really the culprit more than any other gym training elite (although elite training can no doubt be very focused on the negative)...kids who are driven enough to reach the upper echelons of anything from a young age are also very prone to be hard on themselves and deeply competitive. It's literally the same traits that drive them that can take them down. My family is full of people like this and I've met many others over time and I'd say it's pretty rare to meet one who is naturally carefree...they tend to also have a perplexing mix of grandiosity (at times) and low self esteem (most of the time).

Anyway I'm not saying that it is not the coaching. You should absolutely check that out. But also be aware that it may be partially driven by her personality - the same traits that make her one of the best children gymnasts in the country, mind you - and she may need special support, perhaps sports psychology (or regular therapy). Kids like this tend to be very driven by outside accolades (making the TOPS team, winning competitions, getting praise, getting high grades, etc) and tendto draw their esteem from these outside sources...problem is you can't depend on it. You have to learn how to have that esteem from the inside. Trite but true. Even though I'm an adult I still struggle with that a lot. ..I put way too much stock into my reviews at work, the praise or lackthereof from my colleagues, etc. It's not the end of the world but certainly be avoided if possible.

I could be totally wrong about this so I'm sorry if it doesn't fit. Please keep us updated and best of luck to you and your daughter.

 

[MaryA]

I just want to say that you sound very sane. It is very easy, when you have a very young very talented gymnast, to get caught up in it and to push and push. You are looking at your daughter as a little girl first and as a gymnast at a distant second. Hats off to you. I don't have any advice for you, other than to continue to follow your mommy gut. Watch practices, talk to coaches, don't worry about them thinking you're a CGM because you're not (no matter what they think). If you feel that something is "not right" with the way they are coaching your daughter, and if the coaches aren't willing to make a change, then you have to pull her, even though your daughter will say it's not what she wants. She can't see the big picture and that gym is all she knows. I know a mom on this board who has a similarly young and talented gymmie who has recently gone through a gym switch. I'll send her a PM and suggest she get in touch with you.

 

[COz]

... maybe the people who have left are even better sources since they will likely speak more freely and you won't have to worry about gym politics.

Yep. See if they went through the same thing.
Ask them if in hindsight they think switching gyms might have kept their child in the sport.

 

[gympeeps]

Coach meg, I was trying to get to sleep but needed to pick your brain. So, I agree...that they would need to coach her differently than a 9 year old level 4/5. DDs workout group consists of a mish mash of girls age 6 to 14, all levels 4 thru 10, one is trying for hopes.

Maybe u are right! U might be a genius. Surely they are being harder on DD than most of the group! It sounds like we would want them to be.....right? I feel like over time something as simple as this could easily become what she is expressing. I can imagine it would be difficult for a child to perform the same skill as teammates but have more corrections and less praise all the time. Is it common for girls in multiple levels/with different goals to train together?

 

[munchkin3]

Coach meg, I was trying to get to sleep but needed to pick your brain. So, I agree...that they would need to coach her differently than a 9 year old level 4/5. DDs workout group consists of a mish mash of girls age 6 to 14, all levels 4 thru 10, one is trying for hopes.

She could easily be sensing that they are hard on her because they don't like her or something to that effect......if other 9 yo are being praised after doing their RO BHS, and she's getting corrected to death, then poor baby....that's really not fair from her perspective......just a gut, if the coaches got defensive and could not see your point much, then you may need to look at options......the coach athlete relationship is key.

 

[profmom]

My son is also in a workout group where he is the youngest and the group ranges from L6 to L9. He's not in your DD's shoes -- he is not many years younger than the core of the group and the boys don't do the elite path the same way the girls do -- but there are some analogies. He's gearing up for boys' Future Stars next year, so the coach has to be tougher on him to get skills and make them clean.

The difference is that the coach acknowledges his efforts and praises him here and there. After almost everything he does, he gets corrections, but I'd say that the feedback is always at least 30% positive at most practices. He had an even tougher coach last year, and what this guy would do was that, even if he almost never said "good job" or "nice," he would frame his criticisms along the lines of "you are good enough to do this well." This makes for a very different kind of standpoint on his part toward the coaches.

At this point, he has a very positive outlook on criticism. He hears it as loving and helpful, as something that his very invested coaches are providing to make him better. He knows that they believe in him and want him to succeed, and he understands that this is where they are coming from when they tell him to fix things. He sees himself and his coach as a team working together to make him what he wants to be. That is the place that your very talented daughter needs to be with her coaches, and from what you're describing, the problem is at least partially on the coaches' side.

 

[Faith]

I would like to add

For elite kids, especially young ones, sometimes it's about finding the best coach *for them*, not simply the Best Coach.

Some kids need positive coaching- "good job, but remember to x,y,z on your next go". Some aren't happy with that, they want to know what they're doing wrong and how to fix it. Some don't like being talked to, some appreciate being taken aside for a chat now and again.

Your gym maybe very good, with excellent coaches. But, if their coaching manner is to0 harsh or otherwise making your DD unhappy at the present time, it might be wise to look around for a coach who is more positive and nurturing of the child as a whole.

Better she slows down a little now, and stays in the sport long term, than is pushed so fast she's pushed right out.

 

[Orangesoda]

I like what @Faith said. It doesn't really matter if the coaches are the best or the worst. What matters is what "works" for your daughter. If you have a miserable 9 year old with amazing skills, what's the point?

 

[windydays]

Listen to your gut and speak to the HC. Ultimately, you may need to trump your daughter's wishes if you feel it is in her best interest. There is nothing wrong with slowing things down.

I recently pulled my daughter from Hopes training because it became too stressful - constant time changes, constant coaching changes, coaches telling my daughter what she learned from another coach was wrong, one particular coach telling my daughter everything that was wrong with her gymnastics but never told her how to fix it. I could see the stress eating away at my daughter's spirit and love for gym.

 

[sce]

I just want to say that you sound very sane. It is very easy, when you have a very young very talented gymnast, to get caught up in it and to push and push. You are looking at your daughter as a little girl first and as a gymnast at a distant second. Hats off to you. I don't have any advice for you, other than to continue to follow your mommy gut. Watch practices, talk to coaches, don't worry about them thinking you're a CGM because you're not (no matter what they think). If you feel that something is "not right" with the way they are coaching your daughter, and if the coaches aren't willing to make a change, then you have to pull her, even though your daughter will say it's not what she wants. She can't see the big picture and that gym is all she knows. I know a mom on this board who has a similarly young and talented gymmie who has recently gone through a gym switch. I'll send her a PM and suggest she get in touch with you.

I agree with all of this. From all I've read you are approaching this in a balanced way, as her Mom. Of course, she will not want to leave. You decide what the right decision is and make it for her.