WAG Toe-hand question (Toe Hand 101 / Late Drop)

[ReluctantGymMom]

So my kiddo is working on her toe hands right now on strap bar and she can pretty consistently hit hand stand from near handstand. BUT I noticed that she puts her feet on the very top of the bar, she said her coach said it’s fine for now but had told her ideally she wants to get them on at the bottom of the bar. She can’t figure out how to put her feet on the bottom, presumably because she can’t figure out how to arch snap,

These are not step in toe ons, it’s 2 feet on the bar at the same time if it makes a difference,

Question: 1) should she focus on trying to get her feet on lower on the bar? I saw some videos of 2 feet toe hands that start at the top of the bar but many videos are for sure ins

2) any suggestions on getting her to understand the arch snap motion?

Her CH to handstand is consistent and hollow, she’s wanting to move onto other circling skills

 

[JBS]

The easiest way to learn a "late drop" is to not do it from handstand. The arch snap motion is not necessary for a toe hand. I'll look for some good drills tomorrow and post them.

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

The easiest way to learn a "late drop" is to not do it from handstand. The arch snap motion is not necessary for a toe hand. I'll look for some good drills tomorrow and post them.

That would be awesome! They have a block behind the strap bar so she doesn’t usually practice all the way from handstand but from close to handstand - should she start lower?

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

The easiest way to learn a "late drop" is to not do it from handstand. The arch snap motion is not necessary for a toe hand. I'll look for some good drills tomorrow and post them.

So she insists her coach said it’s fine that she’s putting her feet on the top (I’m dubious, the man is a stickler for details) - is it possible to compete a -good- toe hand this way? What’s the benefit of the late drop?

 

[JBS]

is it possible to compete a -good- toe hand this way?

Yes... if she is just doing a toe hand. Many kids start out this way and develop the late drop later as they get better at it.

What’s the benefit of the late drop?

More power for either "turning" or "flying". Turning would be like a toe full. Flying would be a Ray or Maloney or similar.

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

Yes... if she is just doing a toe hand. Many kids start out this way and develop the late drop later as they get better at it.



More power for either "turning" or "flying". Turning would be like a toe full. Flying would be a Ray or Maloney or similar.

Ahh okay! She’s got a while to go before she can do single bar releases, and or toe fulls! She’ll be ecstatic if she can compete the toe hand for level 8, she’s very much over 2 years of CH HS. If she develops the later drop as she gets better at it, I’ll leave her be, I just didn’t want her to be taking short cuts cause this way is easier

 

[JBS]

Here is some basic toe hand work when this athlete was a beginner at them...



She is still not consistent with them on the regular bar... but she is good with them on straps...



She does not do the arch snap technique and does well without it.

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

Very nice! I see she got that late drop down! I’m happy as long as it doesn’t make it harder for her to transition to regular bar she can pretty consistently do them on strap bar but it’ll be a little bit before she can think of moving it

 

[ProudGymnast]

she can pretty consistently do them on strap bar but it’ll be a little bit before she can think of moving it

Piggybacking of this thread and where its going, I have a question of my own. Coaches, what is the best way to move a toe-hand to real bars? Just send it? Drils? Spotted? My gym has pretty much been a clear hip only gym until more recently, when head coach introduced stalder+toe hand drills and on strap bar so I am not familiar with coaching these.

 

[JBS]

Piggybacking of this thread and where its going, I have a question of my own. Coaches, what is the best way to move a toe-hand to real bars? Just send it? Drils? Spotted?

Ok... this is a great question. We have a whole concept with straps at our club.

First off... we use PVC around the bar so strap skills are very easy and they do not teach any sort of shifting of the wrists / hands. We have tried gloves with no PVC and I am personally not a fan as I don't see that this teaches shifting or anything else... it's just harder.

As far as skills go on straps... we keep them directly in line with the real rail. This means that the day a kid get a toe hand (or any other skill) consistently in straps... we move them immediately to the real bar within that week. This does not mean we move them the first time they make the skill... it means we move them when the skill is ready... but for us... that is typically very quickly.

We spot the skill the same way in straps that we do on the real rail... all of our gymnasts are trained this concept. They know that they will be moving the skill to the real rail very quickly once they achieve it in straps. They also know that they will be spotted.

To answer your question... the athletes will be doing the drills for toe hands in straps... as they achieve each drill... they will move it to the bars... spotted. As they achieve a toe hand in straps... they will then move that to the real rail... spotted also. So is it... "just send it"... kind of... but with an experienced coach dictating the "sends".

My gym has pretty much been a clear hip only gym until more recently, when head coach introduced stalder+toe hand drills and on strap bar so I am not familiar with coaching these.

Just work them as much as clear hips and you won't be a clear hip club anymore. The only secret is to work them a ton.

A safety note... make sure the strap bar is always low when working toe hands with beginners. If they accidentally go all the way through to a German hand (skin the cat)... they could injure their shoulders as they are tied to the bar. Having the bar low enough so they can stand in a German hang position is the way to go.

 

[JBS]

Another thing that we have already touched on in this thread (but not fully explained)... the "late drop" and the "toe hand" are things that we train separately. In other words... we have athletes that have a "late drop"... but don't have a "toe hand"... we also have athletes that have a "toe hand"... but don't have a "late drop".

Train them both separately and you will get athletes with both a "late drop" and a "toe hand". This is the key as then you will be able to do stuff like this...





...and toe fulls too!

 

[JBS]

I am moving this to the WAG forum as it is a great discussion for everyone.

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

Love it, I’m guessing this is why her coach told her to work on late drops initially - he told her two feet toe on that has feet on the bottom of the bar will be better for releases. She’s not thinking long term obviously because she finds it frustrating that she can’t go around fully if she puts her feet on the bottom right now (cos she hasn’t practiced it!) and would rather work on just her toe hand from the top.

I was also curious how it transfers to the real bar - this definitely needs spotting right? It’s going to be awhile till her coach has time to spot her (he’s currently got his hands full trying to teach the new level 6s handstands and clear hips)

 

[JBS]

I was also curious how it transfers to the real bar - this definitely needs spotting right?

Yes spotted to move it to the real bar.

We actually even have our optionals spot the little ones on strap bar…

You can see that this one is trying the arch snap technique and it’s not working well.

 

[ReluctantGymMom]

Yes spotted to move it to the real bar.

We actually even have our optionals spot the little ones on strap bar…

View attachment 8602

You can see that this one is trying the arch snap technique and it’s not working well.

Ah she’s never been spotted on strap bar, I’m hoping they have time to spot them on the bar after season

Is there any benefit to an arch snap? That’s exactly how my kids looks if she gets her feet on that way

 

[JBS]

Is there any benefit to an arch snap?

Some people just like them better. Not sure it's really necessary for most skills. I consider it a more advanced technique. Many will do it when they are working an inbar as you can get more compression with the snap...

 

[Kolabola29]

This is such a helpful thread! My daughter has been working on toe hands with and without a spot without the arch snap (so close!) and then separately working on the arch snap and I was (foolishly) thinking that her toe hands were “wrong” because they don’t look like upper level toe hands. (In my gymnastics day, toe hands weren’t really a thing so this is one of the unusual skills I don’t have a frame of reference for.)