TOPs

[pinklemonadeliz]

I have an 8 y/o dd who has been involved in some form of gymnastics since she was 18mos old. She's now part of our TOPs program - the gym implemented the program last August so she's been training 5.5 hrs per week for about a year and a half now.

We're still struggling with many of the skills llike stalters and cast handstands (mainly because the coach has added four new 5y/o girls to the team and they are taking up lots of training time). We have another wonderful coach who is "tutoring" her w/ private lessons, but we're not sure she's going to make it to testing this summer.

I guess my questions are:

Does anyone think she should get the chance to go to testing even though she may not have all the skills (she could at least get the chance to score well on some of the skills AND get the experience under her belt)

and

Does anyone have any experience with this program? I guess I'm feeling like if she's not going to be ready after almost two years, maybe she should move to a leveled class where she can have the chance to compete and feel some sense of accomplishment?

What does everyone think?

 

[Optionals United]

i think she should be able to get the cast handstand by summer not so sure about the stalder.i am not in this program so i dont know how it works. is there another testing after summer like in fall or winter that she will most likly be able to have the other skills by? if she doesnt make it by the end of 2010 i would say move her to a leveled class if she still want to continue.

 

[mariposa]

Welcome!

TOPS is a program with mixed reviews around here as you will see.

My DDs gym just started training the girls towards TOPS testing. My DD really wants to do testing, but not all of our girls will be doing the testing. I think the coach is wanting the ones that test from our gym to have most of the skills pretty close to the averages that made teams last year. We have a few I think could do it in the short time that they have, but they aren't doing much training towards it (not compared to what I have heard around here, no separate training day, only 1-2 hours a week tops dedicated to it) so I am not sure what will happen this year.

I think that some girls just are very good at TOPS skills and pick the skills up quickly, most others will struggle a lot with them and who knows if they will ever get them (especially those stalters). My DD turned 7 in the summer. Since coming to her new gym in April of this year, she can now do (on a really good day) 2 stalters, but not super controlled. Most days she can only do 1. She can cast to handstand, but goes up and over and is a little archy, if she focuses on staying more hollow, she doesn't get to a HS. I don't think she will get the skills in time for testing. Her handstand hold is only about 5 seconds max right now. Her old gym did none of that, so she has had over 6 months of training the skills and not on a regular basis. They also train for meets, etc, she is a level 4 with some 5/6 skills as well.

I am thinking also that your DD will test as a 9 year old next year since she turns 9 in 2010, correct? That will mean they expect more stalters and casts, I think? Higher rope climb, etc?

What does your DD want? Though my DD would love to train for TOPS and the testing, she would hate to not be competing at all. She loves meets. Does your DD want to compete? What are the TOPS girls goals at her gym? Do they score out of levels? When do they eventually compete? Do they start competing at L4, L5?

Good luck to you deciding what to do. Hopefully some mom's with girls that have done TOPS, tested, etc, will share their experience with how TOPS works at their gym, maybe timelines with how long it took their gymmie to get the skills, how many hours they trained TOPS skills, etc. Though of course all kids are different, could be interesting.

 

[gymdog]

I think I'd need some clarification. She is training 5.5 hours a week only, in just a "TOPs" class/program? This is not really the way the program was designed to be implemented, and along those lines I would agree she should probably doing some form of USAG levels where she can compete, especially because around her age a lot of the kids are more motivated to do so. In just 5.5 hours a week total, I am impressed she is anywhere near cast handstands...most TOPs programs involve maybe more like 15-20 hours per week. I would think it would be preferable for her to be in a training program, not with 5 year olds, where you don't need to buy privates for her to progress. The whole set up of the program seems odd to me. Maybe I'm not understanding. The usual set up of a USAG program is the girls are divided into training groups based on level (at the lower levels, usually one level to a training group) and train 10+ hours a week, generally. Gyms that decide to do TOPs in addition to this, will have the girls in a separate group or training session, or they have some sort of other group, but it is still part of the USAG team and they are generally competing. It is possible, and has been done for a girl to enter USAG optional levels using the TOPs program, but it's extremely unusual. And the one case I know was awhile ago, the kid is really college aged now.

 

[gymch34]

Hi Everyone,
I believe the TOPs "skills" you are all referring to are in fact the physical abilities portion of the testing? Cast to hs, press to hs, rope climb, sprint, vertical jump, hs hold, leg lifts and the flexibility testing. Athletes particiapte in state testing in the summer for the physical abilities portion of the testing- about 2,700 athletes partipated last summer in that portion of the test.

The next phase in TOPs is the actual skill testing, which are the (approx.) 300 highest scoring 9-11 year olds on the physical abilities testing. These athletes are invited to the National Testing, held at the Natl training center in houston in late sept./ early oct. There, the athletes once again test their physical abilities, but also skills that are set by the Developmental Elite Committee for each age group. For the 9 year olds, the skills are approx. a strong level 7/8, age 10 Level 8/9, and age 11 Level 9/10 skills. The testers are very tough, some kids get very low scores, but many of the athletes that attend the test are doing the higher level skills and doing them very well. From there, the athletes that can mostly max out the physical abilities AND have all or most of their skills make either the National TOPs team, or the B team.

To the OP, Im not sure if your daughter is doing 5.5 hours of training TOPs in addition to her regular workout, or just 5.5 hours per week. Is she not involved in the JO program (levels?) MOST TOPs kids are doing TOPs in addition to their regular level workouts, and the very best kids are homeschoolong and doing 7/8 hours of gymnastics per day, but are still involved in the JO program.

The true TOPs program is designed to be a feeder for the elite program, but there are many benefits to participating in the physical abilities portion (getting stronger, more flexible, working on weak areas,etc.) If you are looking for her to be successful in the TOPs program (not just benefit from it) 5.5 hours isnt even close to being enough time. does she work the actual skills or just the physical abilities? Does she do privates to work on her physical abilities? For example, the 8 year olds that I am currently training and can max out the physical abilities are working giants, back handsprings on beam, can do a cartwheel back tuck dismount off beam, layouts on floor and are doing lots of yurchenko work. I also have some 8 year olds that "participate" in tops, and are not close to maxing out the physical abilities or doing the age appropriate TOPs skills. I believe TOPs benefits BOTH groups.

As far as the making the testing, I'm not sure if you are referring to the National test, or if your gym has standards that must be met for the state physical abilities testing. But to make the National test, the athletes must max out on almost every physical ability-thats just a numbers game- there are so many good kids only the strongest make the next step.

Wow- sorry so long! I hope this helps!

 

[mariposa]

Interesting thoughts from the coaches. Helps me to prepare my DD with the facts as well. I am not seeing how the way their currently train TOPS is going to get them as far as their coach is hoping. I would love to hear how other girls (especially those who have girls that have made teams, either their own gymmie or on their team) gyms train them for TOPS.

 

[CoachTodd]

I personally don't really care for the TOPS program but if all they need is cast handstand, that is a skill any TOPS prospect could get in just a few workouts.

 

[gymch34]

Coach Todd-Athletes need more than a cast handstand to succeed in TOPs. And the cast required in the physical abilities portion needs to to 100% straight & tight to count, no bent arms, locked out & controlled on the way down, which is something that cannot be achieved in a few workouts.

To Mariposa, the kids making the National team are at least Levl 6/7 by the time they are 9, and MOST are homeschooling for gymnastics, and are training a lot of hours, with more focus on training good basics (the basics we are talking about are cast to hs, giants, etc.) than competing at the JO level. it seems the B camp kids are about the same level, but maybe are not doing the same hours/intensity. I have coached athletes to both teams- at the gym I am at now, my athletes do not train a lot of hours (10.5 for Level 5, 15.5 for leevl 6/7), but those who I expect to qualify to TOPs testing come in at least 6 extra hours/week to do extra TOPs skills.) These kids already can do the physical abilities well, we only spend an hour in each of their extra workouts doing the phys abilities, to maintain & get their numbers up.

 

[CoachTodd]

Gymch34,
The way I've seen kids handpicked to the extra workouts in order to do tops can be taught a cast handstand in a very short period of time. This is just going from what I've seen gyms around here doing. They have already picked out a specific type of kid who usually already has very good body awareness, flexibility and strength.
I can teach a kid with these qualifications a straight arm straight body cast to handstand in a very very short period of time. I've had 7 year old level 4's (USAG) learn the cast to handstand in a day and correct the form over the next few weeks.
The only reason I focused on the cast to handstand is that that was the skill i noticed in the original post.

 

[bookworm]

I agree with most of the posters on TOPS but I disagree with the statement that MOST successful TOPS kids are homeschooled...I think there has been a trend toward trying to keep the gymnasts in regular schools as much as possible with modifications ( early dismissals; days off if needed etc). When my daughter first started with TOPS, we were told that she would eventually have to homeschool but as time went on, and I talked to her school, she was able to stay in her school with her increased workout times and missed days. She did make the TOPS team and needed all the skills described , plus some. When she made the TOPS team , she was a Level 10 gymnast. I think it is really tough for a level 5-7 gymnast to make a team after age 9 as that's when skill testing (as opposed to just physical abilitities) is done.

I will again reiterate that TOPS is not the be all end all that some gyms and coaches make it out to be..it will not make or break your gymnast. It gives them great training and experience but it is by no means the only path to success in gymnastics.

As for the OP, I would hope that your DD is in a USAG JO program as well as TOPS because I would think she'd get very bored just conditioning and training, but never competing. If my DD did not have all the skills needed for the testing , I would not have her test. As one coach said, in order to proceed forward to National Testing , you need to max out on all of the skills as a baseline. I would keep her training and get her ready for the next year's testing when she might be ready.

 

[gymdog]

Gymch34,
The way I've seen kids handpicked to the extra workouts in order to do tops can be taught a cast handstand in a very short period of time. This is just going from what I've seen gyms around here doing. They have already picked out a specific type of kid who usually already has very good body awareness, flexibility and strength.
I can teach a kid with these qualifications a straight arm straight body cast to handstand in a very very short period of time. I've had 7 year old level 4's (USAG) learn the cast to handstand in a day and correct the form over the next few weeks.
The only reason I focused on the cast to handstand is that that was the skill i noticed in the original post.

I really don't think it's easy at all. It's not just one cast (near) handstand. They have to do 10 cast handstands (straight body - not straddled), with form, and less than 2 seconds rest in between. If the kid is casting over, the test is going to end (I think they can restart once though). This is one of the reasons I wouldn't even consider TOPs for the program I'm working in. Yes, I have some 7-9 year olds doing cast handstand...but we would need a lot more training hours and a much more intense environment to achieve the level of performance expected for success on this test (in my opinion). The kids really need to be confident and have excellent control of the skill, better than some (many, even) older optional level gymnasts have.

The way the test is formatted it is really not for the average strong gymnast in my opinion. Cast handstand by itself is not a very rigorous thing. Yes many gyms test a lot of gymnasts...all who can do a cast handstand, etc. But if you watch a testing you'll see a lot of these kids are not doing well on the actual demands of the cast handstand test which is to do multiple up to handstand with good form, without going over. The kids who really do it - you can tell they are training a lot...they are often elite tracked kids often in a separate training group training for that goal.

 

[CoachTodd]

I really don't think it's easy at all. It's not just one cast (near) handstand. They have to do 10 cast handstands (straight body - not straddled), with form, and less than 2 seconds rest in between. If the kid is casting over, the test is going to end (I think they can restart once though). This is one of the reasons I wouldn't even consider TOPs for the program I'm working in. Yes, I have some 7-9 year olds doing cast handstand...but we would need a lot more training hours and a much more intense environment to achieve the level of performance expected for success on this test (in my opinion). The kids really need to be confident and have excellent control of the skill, better than some (many, even) older optional level gymnasts have.

The way the test is formatted it is really not for the average strong gymnast in my opinion. Cast handstand by itself is not a very rigorous thing. Yes many gyms test a lot of gymnasts...all who can do a cast handstand, etc. But if you watch a testing you'll see a lot of these kids are not doing well on the actual demands of the cast handstand test which is to do multiple up to handstand with good form, without going over. The kids who really do it - you can tell they are training a lot...they are often elite tracked kids often in a separate training group training for that goal.

Then you don't have the hand picked kid.
There is no need to argue this further. I can teach a cast handstand to one of these hand picked kids with correct form in very little time.

Sorry for this thread getting hijacked with irrelevant discussions.

 

[hannahsmom]

Can a child be in a TOPS program if her gym does not have a formal TOPS program? Is it something that the coach can just adjust training for or is a formal TOPS program required?

 

[gym law mom]

Can a child be in a TOPS program if her gym does not have a formal TOPS program? Is it something that the coach can just adjust training for or is a formal TOPS program required?

A gym can do TOPS for 1 or 100 kids. The requirements for testing are on the usag site. I guess it would depend if a coach wanted to schedule extra time to work with just 1 child. My guess is, it would be a couple of extra hours/week to get started.

 

[pinklemonadeliz]

Thanks everyone for your great insight!


At our gym, the tops girls are not allowed to be in the leveled/competitive team (I have no idea what the reasoning behind that is) - they do only practice for the 5.5 hrs per week and I'd say 3/4 of the time is spent conditioning & working on tops skills only - the rest of the time is spent learning other skills like beam work, etc. I kind of had it in the back of my mind that it didn't seem like enough time, but figured the coach knew what she was doing since my dd went straight from basic classes to the tops program and I had no experience with it previously.

They are training for the regional testing in June/July and I'd say out of the 9 girls in the program, 4 are eligible (age wise) to test (although my kiddo is the only one who will be testing at the higher age level) - none of them are anywhere near ready. She is beginning to get frustrated as she gives 110% when she's at practice & just doesn't seem to be making the progress that she knows she can make. We've been doing the private lessons as supplemental practice in tops skills from a different coach as we feel that the private coach has a better grip on exactly how to get her where she needs to be in order to be ready for testing but the $$ only stretches so far and we shouldn't have to be supplementing to get her the basic stuff (in my opinion anyway).

I'm not sure that the current coaches really have any idea of what they should be doing other than trying to get the girls to do the basic tops skills. In fact, when they recruited our original group 1.5 years ago, they never even told us exactly what the program entailed or that the girls would be working toward testing, we just kind of researched it on our own & found out.

Maybe it's time to look more seriously at the JO leveled team in the next few months.

Thanks again!

 

[gymdog]

I've never really heard of any set up like that, so I don't really know what the rationale is...but to be honest, I really don't think 5.5 hours will cut it for success in the TOPs program, especially when they move to the age where they do skills testing and the skills required are optional level skills. I also think having in the group with girls who are just 5 and starting out, could hold her back. It seems like too big a range for a workout group in what is trying to be accomplished, especially for a lower level workout group. Some gyms are forced to do this at higher levels due to numbers and coaches, but it's usually with optional levels where the gymnasts can work more independently on basics, etc, rather than lower level groups just learning those basics.

 

[bookworm]

I have heard of a set up like this, once, and basically the girls all burned out because all they did was condition and train press handstands and leg lifts etc but none of the "fun" stuff that gymnastics was supposed to be as they never competed at all, except for the testings!!

I would definitely steer my daughter away from a system like this for a few reasons...as one poster said, the hours don't even seem enough to BE successful at TOPS and I would really worry about a program that doesn't have them compete JO at all, especially at these young ages. I think as one poster said the group range of ages and abilities is too great for your daughter to really benefit.

 

[Shelovesthebars]

I thought it might be helpful to explain the tops program at our gym. My daughter is only 4 and she is not a part of the tops program. I have friends with older daughters who are part of the program and also the extension of this (acc). It is an invite only program starting in competition level 4. The younger ones that are 6 only come one morning a week for 3 hours before school. They also work out with the non-tops level 4's at regular practice. The older girls in tops at higher levels come 2 mornings a week but also come to their regular practice times for their level. All tops girls compete in USAG meets. Our program is successful and the girls get to compete and have fun. We had 2 A team members, 1 B team member and 2 diamond level girls this year. I don't know how many gold or silvers though. We have 6 elites at our small gym now, 2 on the national team. We have also had some girls in the past not get picked for tops that went elite and got on the national team. My daughters preschool level 3/4 coach has been at our gym for about 30 years and she is not a fan of tops. Hope this helps.

 

[pinklemonadeliz]

Thanks! I wish our coaches would let the girls train w/ the level 4/5 teams (the practice on the same nights we do) - I think it would be really helpful and more fun for them.

 

[BarCoach]

I can't find the tops requirements on the usag website.