Off Topic ?What is "Duke TIP"?

[msl529]

Question for you educators/parents out there:

I got a letter the other day informing me that my DD has qualified for the "Duke University Talent Identification Program" for 7th Grade. Apparently, she scored so well on the 'Verbal' section on the standardized tests she took last year, that she is qualified to participate in this program.

I have no idea what it is. From what I read on the brochure, you pay them so they can then enroll your kid to sit for the High School SAT's this December, and your kid gets to list this 'accomplishment' on her record forevermore.

Frankly, although DD is a good student, she is not really 'into' school or 'academic achievements', per-sey. Her score on the verbal was a bit of a surprise to us actually, (I figured it must have just been a fluke---like maybe I gave her a great breakfast that day, or something..!) and I put the test away & forgot all about it. I've never really believed in putting too much empahsis on those tests anyway. They are just ONE measure of a child's academic progress/talent.

So how do they come up w/ such a program & offer it to children based on ONE randomly high test score? I guess I would believe it more if she had always been a super-high achiever, so this is just really out of the blue to me (BTW, the test they took at her school is the Stanford Achievement Test, version 10, if that helps any).

We are not the type of parents that buy into the "My kid must get into an Ivy Leaugue school in order to have a happy & fulfilled life" mantra. We DO believe in working hard and doing your best at WHATEVER you do, and we do want our girls to attend whatever college gives them a solid educational foundation and a good start to their adult lives.

So I wonder whether it's worth it to pursue this or not. I mean, does it REALLY make a difference to colleges if your kid has this achievement listed on their 7th Grade record??? However, I would also hate to discount this, if it would help DD develop more strengths & talents in an academic area that has been previously un-identified in her life.

Help??

 

[Scout's Mom]

Two of my children qualified to take the SAT for the TIP program. The qualification process used to be different, and very few kids were invited. I'm not sure why, but it has now changed so that many kids qualify to test.

There may be a few benefits:

• Experience taking the SAT
• Inclusion on mailing lists that offer amazing summer programs
• Possibility of winning a TIP award (good for a scrapbook, I guess)

The down side:

• Most of the summer programs, while fabulous, are out of the financial range for most families
• Taking such a hard test can be stressful to some 7th graders--if you decide to do it, make sure that your child knows that these tests are designed for much older kids
• I doubt seriously that it will make a big difference in what university your child ultimately attends.

If it were me, I'd let my child decide. It doesn't cost that much; and if she's motivated, it would be an enlightening experience.

Good luck!

 

[gymdog]

I know some people who did it, and it can be a good thing for some very highly motivated, extremely bright younger middle schoolers who are trying to accelerate through high school, but overall, it's really not going to matter for college admissions for most of the ones who qualify. Basically nothing on her 7th grade record is going to matter (unless it's exceptional or a stop on the path to something exceptional). If she applies as an 18 year old senior, they will be most interested in what happened in high school.

Also, they changed the system now so you can pick and choose which scores go to colleges (rather than the entire College Board record being sent) but before the tests taken at this age didn't count on the record, so for some people they were interested in trying it then if they were going to try to take it early in the next two years. But anyway these scores won't be going to any colleges and in five years they might have reformatted the test again and they will be somewhat obsolete...someone my age who participated in this, for example, would have received a score out of 800, whereas when I applied to college it had already moved on to the only out of 1600 system.

My younger sister ended up taking it (many of her friends were as she was in a gifted program) and did average. One of her friends did phenomenally well, but he is exceptional at math (accelerated many years ahead). For him, it did open up some opportunities to show qualification for certain programs that were more at his level. For my sister, although she is above average in terms of her age, there are plenty of kids her age at her academic level, if that makes sense, so it wasn't really needed or used for anything. The SATs are boring (says the person with the attention span of a peanut...) and longer now that they added writing so personally *I* wouldn't do it if I didn't have to, but if she has a burning desire and isn't easily discouraged, then it might be interesting.

 

[alisonslp]

here's their website for more info. I have looked into it for the future for my kids. They can test in 4th grade as well. www.[B]tip[/B].duke.edu/

The biggest reasons for these tests are to better differentiate the levels of giftedness and offer these kids programs better suited for their level. It can also help if you want your child in a private prep school or if your child is ready for college early.

For kids in the highest level of giftedness (profound) it can be comforting to get together with similar kids. Not just in the on-site programs but also the forums and online events.

alison

 

[gymkat]

This would not be appropriate to put on a college application, and colleges wouldn't see it. I took the ACT when I was 11 and the SAT when I was 12 through the Midwest Talent Search, and I thought it helped me relax for the real test; I knew that I couldn't do any worse! There are some programs that are open to middle schoolers that require a certain score on the ACT or SAT, although they're pretty expensive. The only real benefit to me was not having to stress out about my score, since I knew that I was going to do significantly better than when I was 12!

 

[NYgymfan]

I was invited to take the SAT's and do TIP when I was in 7th grade. My parents did not feel it was appropriate to stress me out by making me take the SAT's when I was only 12. None of my friends at the top of my HS class did it either, and probably for similar reasons. Last year's graduating class from my HS had kids get accepted to Duke, Yale, Stanford, and Princeton, and none of them did TIP either to the best of my knowledge. So in otherwords, it has no bearing on where you go to college whatsoever.

TIP is essentially no different that most other camps that "smart kids" enroll in. The idea is to bring kids with similarly high levels of smartness together to have them be in an environment that makes them better able to use those skills because they are around other kids like them. I'm sure it has great social benefits as well too. I can understand that msl's DD isn't "into school" or academic achievements...but really what 7th grader is? Being outwardly "into" schoolwork at that age will get you labelled as a nerd in no time, and that is the last thing middle schoolers want. That right there is a main reason for a program like TIP...kids would be less afraid to express themselves when they are around a whole bunch of other kids who won't label them.

I'm not a fan of standardized tests. But, for TIP you have to take the SAT in order to attend. It might not be the best measure of how smart someone is, how hard they work, or how successful they will be, but it is the measure that is used for this one particular program. Any parent is free to send their kid to any camp they want, and each camp has a different set of rules for getting in. There are plenty of "smart kid" camps out there that you can get into wwithout the SATs.

Now about the "my kid must go to an Ivy League school" bit...this is a discussion we have had many times in my house within the last year. My dad does a lot of hiring in his division at work, and his take is pretty simple. First you have to get your resume to someone who can hire you...and then you have to get your resume noticed, and then you have to prove you are a hard worker. Someone who goes to an Ivy League or other "top" school might have an easier time landing their dream job, because it stands out more, but if you are a hard worker, take some initiative, and have some accomplishments/achievements that seperates you from the crowd, you can still get that dream job no matter where you went to school. My dad has hired Princeton grads, and he has hired community college grads, and he says that once you get into a career, it doesn't matter where you went to school as long as you can do your job.

I'm applying to some Ivy League schools, and I'm applying to even more "non-top" schools, including SUNY schools. I would love the opportunity to go to a top school, but I understand that if I don't get in, my life will still go on and I will still be successful, because I make goals and strive to reach them. My parents have said that where I go to school is my choice.

To msl529...congrats to your DD for getting invited into the TIP program. Obviously she must have done well on those tests which is great. Assuming you can afford to send her and don't have major issues with sending her, why not ask her how she feels about it? Since TIP isn't going to make or break her getting into a college, then she should really want to go instead of being "sent".

And my last thought before ending this super-long post. My dad told me that after hearing all about how much hard work gymnasts must go through to do well at our sport, gymnastics is now something that makes him "notice" someone's resume.

 

[msl529]

Well, I must thank you, NYGym, for your well-thought out post. It is certainly evident why you were invited to TIP!

Basically, the advice I am hearing is to let dd try it out, IF she has the inkling to do so. I was glad to hear of stories from other posters about TIP not really making a huge difference either way, as far as long-term results.

As far as sending dd to 'smart camp', I am having a hard time keeping a straight face as I picture that right now, she has just never struck me as the 'academic' type. Gym camp, yes, but camp where they have writing contests, uh..she'd get kicked out for laziness the first day! But I will explain it all to her & then let her do the deciding about sitting for the SAT/ACT, attending camps, etc.

Thanks, NY & all you others, for the informative posts!

 

[NYgymfan]

I did "smart camp" back in the day...I think summers before 7th and 8th grades. We campers referred to it as "nerd camp". It was kind of nice being around kids that thought like me, but yeah, it was a little on the lame side, and you really have to be "into" it to make the best of it. Mine was just a day camp. But I won't lie...I had a lot more fun at soccer and running camps.

And thank you for complimenting my post. My AP US History teacher did a wonderful job teaching us how to write well thought out arguments, and we had plenty of practice every night for HW

 

[msl529]

BTW, I do NOT see it as 'nerd' camp and hope you didn't take it that way! The only reason I laugh at the thought of my kid being there is that she hates to do schoolwork and would die if we sent her somewhere where she had to do even more! I think that those camps are a GREAT idea for kids who do love to be challenged academically, b/c it's a place where they can feel safe w/ their 'smartness', so to speak.

DD & I talked this am. As I began to describe the camp idea she was like..'no-no-no-!" But she did like the idea of taking the SAT, to help her know what to expect from it in another few years. So we will see.

Good for you, NY, for being such a dedicated student. AP teachers can be so great at bringing the best out of their stronger students, and it looks like yours has helped and inspired you a lot.

Also, I loved your quote about your Dad saying he notices 'gymnastics experience' on resumes. I really do believe this sport sets one up with so many good life-lessons that can be used, and referred back to, all throughout one's life. Thanks for sharing that!

Good luck to you NY, in all your endeavors. I can tell you have a good head on your shoulders, a very important pre-requisite to life!

 

[flippymonkeysmom]

My dd was invited to go to some academic thing in Washington DC last summer - some academic excellence / leadership thing she was nominated for through her school. The cost would have been really ridiculous though. She chose gymnastics camp instead anyway Also, I don't know if it was the same program, but I took the SAT's when I was in 6th grade way back when. I remember that at the time I scored higher than 60% of high school seniors. The funny thing is that once I got into high school I went through a major rebellious period and never took the SAT's in high school - go figure

 

[gymkat]

The thing is that a lot of these summer academic programs are expensive, and they really don't give you a benefit while applying to colleges. Admissions people are very aware of the cost, and there are only a few summer programs that are truly considered "elite" (TASP and RSI come to mind, and I believe both of these are free). Almost all of my friends were invited to the government programs, People-to-People, or the talent search programs... these are money makers. You can find similar opportunities for free if you look hard enough. Instead of doing a medical program, call and ask if you can shadow doctors at a local hospital. I found a paid science internship through a local community college-- beats paying to go to a science program!

I've seen my admissions profile to my scholarship program, and gymnastics was definitely mentioned-- in fact, it was mentioned more prominently than my science internship.

 

[NYgymfan]

BTW, I do NOT see it as 'nerd' camp and hope you didn't take it that way! The only reason I laugh at the thought of my kid being there is that she hates to do schoolwork and would die if we sent her somewhere where she had to do even more! I think that those camps are a GREAT idea for kids who do love to be challenged academically, b/c it's a place where they can feel safe w/ their 'smartness', so to speak.

Also, I loved your quote about your Dad saying he notices 'gymnastics experience' on resumes. I really do believe this sport sets one up with so many good life-lessons that can be used, and referred back to, all throughout one's life. Thanks for sharing that!

Nah, I didn't think you saw it that way. You know sometimes when you are part of a group and its sort of OK to make fun of yourselves...and it becomes more of a bonding thing then a negative thing? That's sort of what I was referring to, we called ourselves nerds and we were proud of it...but if one of the "not as smart" kids called us a nerd then it takes on a negative meaning.

And yes, my dad just hired a college club gymnast (NAIGC) for his division. He started asking her about gym at her interview since it was on her resume and she was surprised that he knew so much about it (because of me). But when she told him she competed Level 10 all through the end of HS he said he knew she had to be a dedicated and hard worker.

 

[msl529]

Nah, I didn't think you saw it that way. You know sometimes when you are part of a group and its sort of OK to make fun of yourselves...and it becomes more of a bonding thing then a negative thing? That's sort of what I was referring to, we called ourselves nerds and we were proud of it...but if one of the "not as smart" kids called us a nerd then it takes on a negative meaning.

And yes, my dad just hired a college club gymnast (NAIGC) for his division. He started asking her about gym at her interview since it was on her resume and she was surprised that he knew so much about it (because of me). But when she told him she competed Level 10 all through the end of HS he said he knew she had to be a dedicated and hard worker.

Good for your Dad! Smart man!