WAG Why not external motivation?

[BarCoach]

If I can get harder work, more effort and better results by offering a reward or incentive, why should I not use that as often as I can? Something as simple as reminding them what they think a first place team would like like in practice takes no effort on my place but gives me dramatically different routines than if I just asked for yet another set.

 

[MaryA]

I don't think "Show me what a first place routine would look like" is using extrinsic motivation. It is giving them something to focus on. Also, I don't think external motivation is always bad. Heck, when these kids are in the gym for hours each day, anything you can do to get them to sit up and pay attention is a good thing. But the gymnast who is going to do best in the long run is the gymnast who is motivated to do well for the sake of achieving her own goals rather than the one who is striving to do well in hopes of "earning" a toy, a treat, or even a medal.

The last time I used (blatantly) extrinsic motivation with my daughter and gymnastics was early last season when I told her I'd take her out for Chinese food when she did her BHS on high beam. Then one day I picked her up from practice and she came out of the gym utterly defeated by that BHS and I took her out for Chinese food anyway. She asked, "Are you sure? I didn't do my BHS." I told her that I was sure and that I knew she was working her hardest for that BHS. Not too long after that, she just did it. And there was no fanfare and the reward for getting her BHS was just getting her BHS. Well, that and her coaches letting her compete beam at the next meet. I think that's when I finally "got it." But I know the coach promised the level 7's ice cream (or something) if they all stuck their beam routines at a meet last year and they were really excited when they did it. That wasn't a bad thing either... just fun for them.

 

[mommyof1]

Totally agree with MaryA--telling the gymnasts what to focus on is more about directing their intrinsic motivation than about extrinsic motivation.

Of course intrinsic motivation is what will take an individual athlete the farthest. But extrinsic motivation has its uses too. I sometimes use extrinsic rewards with my 7-year-old as a bridge to developing internal motivation, or as a temporary measure to get her through a rough patch. I think this is developmentally appropriate for little kids. And even with older kids, a fun reward can be a great team-builder. For instance, one of the coaches at my daughter's gym once promised the L3 team that when they reached a certain goal, he would climb the rope. He made quite a show of it and the girls absolutely loved it. And I once saw a video of students duct-taping a teacher to a wall--I assume that was a reward for something as well!

 

[htimcj]

Using external motivation for most kids is just a short term fix. Yes, for a week or two you might see improvement but eventually the reward has to become bigger and bigger for it to have any effect.

Now sometimes you have to provide external motivation. Some think that getting a salary or getting paid for your job is external motivation and that is the ONLY thing that keeps people in their jobs. Eventually many people figure out that the pay isn't worth it and move to something at they truly love even if the external motivation of a good salary is no longer there.

Also research has shown that when you provide external motivation for something that a person already finds internally motivating you will erode that internal motivation and soon they will no longer do whatever without the reward.

Of course this all applies to the populace in general and everyone is different but I would really, really stay clear of external motivators unless it is a task that someone truly, truly dislikes and yet still has to get it done.

 

[happychaos]

External motivation is a great tool for children (umm...and adults) when used appropriately. A reward or incentive can be used to get children to a place where they CAN appreciate intrinsic rewards alone. For example, a child that is struggling to learn to read can be motivated by small attainable goals with rewards for meeting the goals. Obviously, the end goal is a child that just loves to read without any rewards, but it takes a while for some children to get to that place. Why not make the journey a bit more fun?

I use rewards and incentives frequently with my DD and her music practice. There are many times that my DD enjoys her instrument, and even plays just for the joy of it. I am happy that these moments are coming more and more frequently as she is getting older. But, there are still many times when practice is difficult/boring/not-fun, etc. Letting DD know that if she practices hard she can have a cookie or watch some t.v. goes a loooong way.

Personally, I wish DD's gym used a bit of extrinsic motivation. Even something like putting a check-mark on a chart when learning a new skill, or getting to ring a bell. Or a contest for the longest handstand, best routine, fastest rope-climb, etc. Really, even a big pat-on-the-back from the coach, or cheers from teammates are external motivators. Of course girls should, and do, feel great when getting a new skill or whatever, but sometimes a little extra something helps get through the tough spots.

 

[wallinbl]

It's useful for bridging the time gap between the child's ability to delay immediate gratification for future gain and the necessary delay. These two things must eventually converge, however, and extrinsic can't be used forever. But, as a tool to teach them to work towards long term goals, it's useful.

Something as simple as reminding them what they think a first place team would like like in practice takes no effort on my place but gives me dramatically different routines than if I just asked for yet another set.

I wouldn't call that extrinsic motivation.

 

[BarCoach]

I guess I'm unclear on what extrinsic motivation really is. My example of telling them what to focus on seemed to me like an external motivator because they perform so much better than if asked to perform with no comment from me (internally motivating). What about playing games such as make 10 in a row as a team? Where would that fall?
I've been reading about visualization so we're going to start incorporating that into our workouts to hopefully teach them a little more focus on their own. But each day my goal is just to get the best work and most improvement out of them that I can. Whatever it takes.

 

[gymgymgymnast08]

I don't see anything wrong with external motivation. As a group, we all struggled with beam the one season. The coach decided to make a big chart for everyone to see and on it you had to record the number of beam routines you stuck. The winner got out of conditioning for a week and we did a new cycle after every meet. I think if you fell at the meet you got like 3 or 5 routines subtracted from your total. We were really competitive with that chart. We also had a chart for number of vaults landed and I think it worked the same way. That year we were all very consistent on beam and all the coach had to offer was a week off of conditioning.
This external motivation was also good because it made us all work harder which put our coach in a better mood.

 

[MaryA]

I guess I'm unclear on what extrinsic motivation really is. My example of telling them what to focus on seemed to me like an external motivator because they perform so much better than if asked to perform with no comment from me (internally motivating). What about playing games such as make 10 in a row as a team? Where would that fall?
I've been reading about visualization so we're going to start incorporating that into our workouts to hopefully teach them a little more focus on their own. But each day my goal is just to get the best work and most improvement out of them that I can. Whatever it takes.

Getting students to focus ("show me what a first place routine looks like") is good coaching. Just telling them to do it again is not. Extrinsic motivation is telling them, "If you do X, then I will give you Y." They are being motivated by trying to "earn" Y and not by the satisfaction they get by doing X. My dad used to give me $5 for every A. That's total extrinsic motivation (and it never worked very well). For that matter, the grade itself is extrinsic motivation because the goal of education is not to "get A's" but to learn. The ideal would be the intrinsically motivated kid who loves to learn and who looks for ways to learn more and to utilize what he/she is learning. So, in a way, the medal or even the SCORE could be looked at as extrinsic motivation. The intrinsic motivation would be the gymnast's drive to keep improving his/her gymnastics, learning more skills, having cleaner routines, etc. But even the most instrinsically motivated gymnasts still need coaches who give them feedback and keep them focused. It sounds like you are working hard to be a great coach!

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

I remember last year a girl on Alex's team was balking at her BHS on beam. Had it for about a year and all of a sudden stopped doing it.

At our old gym they had one of those spray tan tents and one of the owners did spray tans from time to time. Right before we were leaving out to go to our Florida meet her mom told her she would let her get a spray tan if she did her BHS. Apparently that was a great motivator for this girl (extremely pale skin) and she got up there and busted out about 3 in a row. Go figure! That same motivation did NOT work on my DD however!

 

[BarCoach]

Ok I understand. Thank you MaryA. I think I'm doing ok. Was thinking I wasn't encouraging the internal motivation enough. I do occasionally offer rewards such as open gym, but it isn't often. We have a really big meet coming up this weekend so I might have to use some sort of prize to get the absolute most out of them that I can. We'll see how today goes. I like the idea of the beam routine chart. They'd definitely work for no conditioning. What are everyone's thoughts on rewarding for performances during meets? In that example, 3-5 routines were taken away for no stuck meet routine. Don't most kids have enough stress and motivation to do well at a meet? Or would some immediate reward work?

 

[mommyof1]

Here is a simple definition of each type of motivation, along with guidelines for the effective usage of extrinsic rewards:

http://psychology.about.com/od/moti...etween-extrinsic-and-intrinsic-motivation.htm

 

[kimute]

Hi BarCoach,

Visualization and reminders of what it feels like to win sound great to me. I don't have much to add to the fabulous comments above, but did come across a great article on the topic of why extrinsic motivators not only don't work, but can be detrimental.

http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/pdf/Punished by Rewards.pdf

"one of the most thoroughly researched findings in social psychology is that the more you reward someone for doing something, the less interest that person will tend to have in whatever he or she was rewarded to do."

On your meet question, it seems to me that kids want to do their best at meets with no additional carrots or sticks...

 

[BarCoach]

Thank you so much for those two articles and to everyone who responded!

 

[Gymsanity]

Link Removed

OMG, I think I've just over dosed on psycho-babble! What planet is this guy from! I'm sorry, but unless you live with fairies and unicorns on planet nirvana, this just isn't the world we live in. I see he has written 11 other books, scores of articles, and does speaking engagements, as well as sells DVDs, etc. Do you think he made money on those? Oh no, extrinsic reward! He has received lots of positive feedback and accolades. Oh no, there we go with those extrinsic rewards again!
There is a huge difference between the real world and a fantasy utopia world. When I was in economics 101, the first rule was literally 'incentives matter.' In the real world, isn't that really what it's all about? Who doesn't want a raise, promotion, a pat on the back, bonus, recognition, trophy, certificate, award, medal, etc.? Ever notice how much more 'attentive' people who work on commission are?
"one of the most thoroughly researched findings in social psychology is that the more you reward someone for doing something, the less interest that person will tend to have in whatever he or she was rewarded to do."
REALLY?? Give a monkey a banana for pulling a lever and see how fast he DOESN'T loose interest! Ever been told 'thanks for cooking such a great meal'? (or some other such compliment). Did you then loose interest in cooking a great meal again?
In utopia, external forces wouldn't be necessary, but until I reside there, I will continue to give and look for extrinsic rewards. Short of Zen Buddhists, we all need it, just some more than others.

 

[mommyof1]

In utopia, external forces wouldn't be necessary, but until I reside there, I will continue to give and look for extrinsic rewards. Short of Zen Buddhists, we all need it, just some more than others.

Here's another perspective re. praise:

http://blogs.hbr.org/2013/12/the-fine-art-of-tough-love/

 

[Gymsanity]

^Amen!^ It is so comforting to know at least one person still gets it! Great article that exemplifies my beliefs and style. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Midwestmommy]

I think common sense and middle ground is the answer. Heck little rewards or games with prizes are fun. Even in business, I find a break with some good food is always well received by a team as a reward for some hard work. It's common in business to get bigger bonuses if we meet or exceed planned targets.

For my daughter, I don't pay her for grades and would not award meet scores or placements. But I will reward her meeting reading goals. I reward her for doing extra jobs around the house. I pay her for weeding the garden. If her coaches give a little treat for a goal that teams or individuals have met, I have no problem with that. My daughter thinks that kind of stuff is fun. And gymnastics should be fun.

As a parent, I would not ever reward her for obtaining certain skills in gymnastics. For lack of a better word, I think that is just too psychologically and physically "complicated" and could backfire in making things worse, injury etc. As a parent I think the skill progression, etc. is best left with the athlete and coaches. That's where you need to be at a gym that you are confident actually cares about your particular kid realizing their potential in the sport. You should feel comfortable they will make decisions (move ups , hours etc) based on what is best for her and not just by space and coaching availability limitations. You could be at a gym with the best coaches in the country-- but it also may be really crowded and your child might never get the opportunity to work with those coaches if they can't get onto the team or top track or whatever. Finding the right fit is the tricky part. Once you are there then trust the coaches with the skills, coaching part..

I tell my daugher I love watching her meets whether it's a good day or a bad day, and that I'm proud of her. I don't reward meet performance, other than giving her a special day for every meet. Sometimes lunch out feels celebratory after a meet, and sometimes it functions to cheer her up after a hard day. My job on meet day is unconditional love and admiration for all her hard work and effort and having the guts to get out there (well that and hair and driving and packing her snacks). She knows she is supposed to save any tears or bitterness for me in the car or at home (and the shoulder is always there for her to cry on), because one of her jobs on meet day is to be a good sport during thecompetition and at awards. Her coaches do have little rewards for not falling off beam, team rewards, pins etc. I'm totally fine with that. She is very proud when she gets one of them, and when she doesn't it's a good teaching moment to remind her to be happy for her teammates/friends..

That's where you need to be in a gym that is the right fit for your kid, it may not be the top gym in town if things like moving up are more dictated by space and time and coaching availability issues than by what is best for a particular gymnast.

 

[MaryA]

Very well said, MWM!

 

[Coach2400]

In practice on beam we play a game. If a kid doesnt stick a beam routine, she has to do a silly dare ( I pick them of course), such as do a headstand in the lobby and sing row, row, row your boat.
I love the parents confused look and then everyone breaks out laughing! Of course sometimes a kid wants to fall (lol) because its too much fun. The upside is I have a hard time being in a bad mood watching them look silly. And I never create a dare that makes a kid uncomfortable. It does help them with learning to laugh at themselves and explore their silly side. And yes if they stick it I do something silly myself