WAG Why not external motivation?

[iwannacoach]

When I was in economics 101, the first rule was literally 'incentives matter.' In the real world, isn't that really what it's all about?Ever notice how much more 'attentive' people who work on commission are?

Who doesn't want a raise, promotion, a pat on the back, bonus, recognition, trophy, certificate, award, medal, etc.?......

What kid doesn't want to learn the next bar skill, have a solid beam routine, look confident and lyrical on floor, and thunder a vault that makes everyone's socks fall down and roll back up. In my mind those four things describe the currency that's traded in our sport, and the only way you can cash a bonus check in gymnastics is by earning it with hard work doing something you really want to do.

I'll agree with any and all who suggest an extrinsic reward can nudge kids to help them see what comes of hard work. But, if the lesson doesn't sink in after a few trials is it wise to continue, and if so what do you do..... up the ante, reduce the challenges to make it easier for them so they can feel the intrinsic reward while holding their hand out to receive the promised the external reward. If you ask my opinion, I'd say this........

There was an annual competition that a certain gymnast watched from the stands for for two years straight. I know it bothered this gymnast to not receive an invitation to the competition, but then again you had to be pretty good to be a part of the meet. Wanting to be included and acknowledged was all the motivation it took to get this kid to put in a year's hard work and improve enough to get an invitation the third year.

The "paycheck" was just getting invited and being acknowledge as an able gymnast. Bonuses in the real world mean more money on top of your paycheck, or receiving something beyond the ordinary to acknowledge work efforts and results that go beyond ordinary. In the case of this kid and the invitation, the bonus was paid in gymnastics currency in the for of a trip to the top tier of the podium. I doubt an external reward would have produced the same result, and may have indeed proven a distraction by sharing importance with the true prize.

You may come to realize this after enduring a hundred too many negotiations with level 7 kids over what a giant on bars should receive, and you'll certainly see the light when the kid's agent, well maybe some day, occupies the better part of a vault rotation trying to hammer out a deal that allows both coach and gymnasts to walk away feeling they got the best of the bargain.

I'd linger a bit longer, but I have to go reward my 10 year old with a piece of hard candy for brushing his teeth and putting on his night clothes.

 

[Gymsanity]

'What kid doesn't want to learn the next bar skill, have a solid beam routine, look confident and lyrical on floor, and thunder a vault that makes everyone's socks fall down and roll back up. In my mind those four things describe the currency that's traded in our sport, and the only way you can cash a bonus check in gymnastics is by earning it with hard work doing something you really want to do.'
No disrespect intended, but I feel like we just slipped over to fantasy island again!
What you describe sounds wonderful, and for lots of young, low level, new kids, learning relatively safe and easy tricks, that's often true. But I'm sorry, I don't have many kids begging me 'please let me do my RO, BHS, BHS, LO on beam just one more time because I really love the intrinsic feeling it gives me!' 'Hey, now that I have my standing BT on beam, can I make it a full so I'll feel really good about myself?' 'Coach, I was thinking, to make giants more fun and rewarding, maybe I should use just one hand instead of two. What do you think?'
Kidding aside, you have read hundreds of threads here about kids dealing with fear, and I'm willing to assume you have even had a few of them throughout your years. We as coaches have a large toolbox full of tools to help the kids through those tough times, and yes, one of the many tools is extrinsic motivation of some sort. If kids only progressed as far as they were comfortable going or intrinsically motivated, I'd be stuck with a gym full of girls that just do HS's and CW's!
I've had girls that were more intrinsically motivated than others for sure. As you know, they usually tend to be the best gymnasts in the end. Having said that, even they love to have all the other girls stop and watch her perform her new trick with no spot, a hug from her coach, or getting to go to snack early for sticking 10 routines in a row with no falls.
Extrinsic motivation should be used to help build and develop intrinsic motivation, but who would want to eliminate it all together? I have no reason to believe that you are anything other than a great coach. I'm sure you know and feel that intrinsically. Does that mean you don't feel something good when a peer or parent comes up to you and says 'Hey coach, I just wanted to let you know I think you are doing a great job, and really appreciate it.'
In my mind, life doesn't have enough extrinsic motivations. Instead, most of us live in fear of negative consequences, which in my book, are far worse.

 

[happychaos]

You may come to realize this after enduring a hundred too many negotiations with level 7 kids over what a giant on bars should receive, and you'll certainly see the light when the kid's agent, well maybe some day, occupies the better part of a vault rotation trying to hammer out a deal that allows both coach and gymnasts to walk away feeling they got the best of the bargain.

Do high level gymnasts really have agents??? I guess once you're famous enough to make some money you would need one....

 

[Gymsanity]

I believe IWC was being tongue in cheek on that. But yes, it's not uncommon for elite athletes in any sport to have agents to help with schedules, appearances, endorsements etc. Hasn't been one of my problems yet, and not expecting it!

 

[iwannacoach]

Well Gymsanity, I just don't understand your point. In one paragraph you have me living in a world void of praise and recognition of effort, and in another you seem doubtful any but a few can make it through skills without a mental breakdown...... unless some great reward comes along to help them get past that difficult point. At least that's the way I understand what you're saying. I've had some kids work those skills, and while they really aren't for everybody, I doubt I left any willing gymnast languishing due to indifference or lack of motivation even though I didn't provide regular rewards for getting skills or overcoming a problem...... unless you feel that motivation is enough to overcome every obstacle including being short on natural ability of lacking some other important quality.

Along with the great reward system that solves problems, you seem to have a steady motivator in place that I view as intrinsic, but you portray as extrinsic. What caught my attention is your thought's about the importance of a coach being able to bring motivation to the gym merely by their own presence. Well, if that's what you're talking about, then I'm on the same train yelling all aboard.

Honestly, I have tried it six ways from Sunday, and I've seen incentives beyond the normal gymnastics environment cause problems when when a child feels they failed x 2 by not getting the brass ring and then falling off the merry-go-round. So my feeling is if they can't be motivated by what's in the gym..... by their coaches and team mates, and at home by interacting normally with parents and siblings.

My rare exceptions to the above sentiment take place when a kid hasn't the tools to motivate on their own in the above context of coach, teammates, and family. Motivation within the framework the sport provides isn't natural quality given to every child, so I'll nurture as best I can for those that missed that personal evolution.

That's a step I'll take to help a child learn what a little hard work can do for them. If I can't reach them with the occasional external reward it's up to them to decide if they want to be a gymnast or a kid that does gymnastics, and whatever they choose is both temporary and ok as far as I'm concerned. I'll still coach them and give them the same opportunity everyone else gets, because I believe in the adage that every dog has it's day.... or at least should be given the chance to have it's day when they finally get out of the kennel and choose to run with the pack.

Coaches are there to coach and teach their gymnast's values that grow into personal accomplishments. Team mates are there to support one another the best they can and to inspire each other as they individually step forward to be the first in the group to do one skill or another. Parents and siblings are there to help make sense of it all, and to cheer. These are the things I feel are intrinsic to the gymnastics environment with little concern for somebody being overly cheerful, or enthusiastic, or silly, or caring, or thoughtful, or otherwise behaving as people with a common cause do.

I suppose the two of us could be viewed as having similar philosophies with respect to the important role a coach plays when caring enough to do what can be done get their kids kids motivated and keeping them that way.

Maybe that's all it takes.

 

[Gymsanity]

Thanks for the reply IWC. I think at this point we are just going over semantics. I was originally railing against the article stating that any form of extrinsic motivation was a 'bad' thing. I totally disagree. Given in proper proportion and frequency, it can be a very good and helpful thing. Also, some kids/humans are driven more or less by it, but one of my points was that unless you are a robot or Zen Buddhist, we all need some. Unfortunately, I happen to be on the side of needing more than others. I know I do a good job, but I still need to hear it from the parents, my peers, the judges, kids, etc. to help keep me feeling good about what I'm doing. Am I intrinsically motivated? Probably more than anyone I know! Let me also make it clear that if the MAIN thing that drives a person to do anything is extrinsic motivation, then they are more than likely not going to be very good at it or enjoy it in the end.

 

[iwannacoach]

Thanks for the reply IWC. I think at this point we are just going over semantics. I was originally railing against the article stating that any form of extrinsic motivation was a 'bad' thing.

I was kinda thinking the same way but had two hurdles to clear. The first, just for me and the way I do things, is I worry about the frequency and size of the reward. I also have the same concerns for coaches that shun rewards completely, and respond to new skills and progress with an "it's about time attitude."

The second hurdle....... I forgot how to spell semantics.

 

[Gymsanity]

^^

 

[All Chalked Up]

I didn't get to read over this thread so forgive the randomness of this post, but a funny story about external motivation:

I was having some problems sticking my handspring full vault and had a meet last weekend. I was told that if I stuck my vault, my coach would find the cutest boy in the gym & I could kiss him. Did I stick the vault? Yes... even though my coach & I both knew that she was NOT going to find me a cute gymnast boy to kiss!

Joking aside, I have used external motivation with my pre-comp kids. None were putting any effort into making their baby giants clean, so I said whoever had straight legs, pointed toes, etc. in their baby giants got to have a sucker. Guess how quickly those cleaned up!

 

[cbifoja]

I go back and forth with mine and believe this is just another example of different parenting styles. Some kids respond to external motivation and some don't need it. But if the child works better with it, and it doesn't get extreme, I don't see the harm.

My child has a new kitten riding on an AA score. She needs a certain AA score to attend an invitation-only camp she wants to go to. That is some motivation, yes. But she gets discouraged because it's a pretty high AA for her.

I offered up the kitten as an extra bonus. It helps that I think she won't be able to achieve it but even if she does, it will be worth her self-esteem boost to see it happen. And this is a rare thing. She isn't given this type of reward for every meet....not even every season. But little things here and there sure help her as she responds to this type of motivation.

 

[MaryA]

I go back and forth with mine and believe this is just another example of different parenting styles. Some kids respond to external motivation and some don't need it. But if the child works better with it, and it doesn't get extreme, I don't see the harm.

My child has a new kitten riding on an AA score. She needs a certain AA score to attend an invitation-only camp she wants to go to. That is some motivation, yes. But she gets discouraged because it's a pretty high AA for her.

I offered up the kitten as an extra bonus. It helps that I think she won't be able to achieve it but even if she does, it will be worth her self-esteem boost to see it happen. And this is a rare thing. She isn't given this type of reward for every meet....not even every season. But little things here and there sure help her as she responds to this type of motivation.

Wow, I'm not going to let my DD read your post or she's going to start angling for a new kitten. That's the last thing we need in our house! Though at times I'm desperate enough to see her compete her giants that I might actually offer it if I thought it would help. Actually, DD would likely ask for some sort of creepy crawly thing instead. Last I heard she wanted a "legless lizard." But I'm afraid she's just going to have to get her giants on the "regular bars" all on her own without the help of a legless lizard.