Parents "A" Team and "B" Team at same gym

[Deleted member 18037]

A for-profit gymnastics center that has parents paying top dollar to have their kids trained

I am paying for the coaches to get the best out of my kid, not necessarily the exact same as everyone else.

 

[Really]

Because different abilities have different needs.

If my kid was moving slower, I don't want her needing to keep up with someone else.

If she is moving faster I don't want her slowed down by some one else.

A new level x, is not necessarily at same place as a nearly done and ready to move on level x.

There are level 4s who will move quickly to level 7 and level 4s who will not. A good coach will give the kids what they need, at the pace they need it.

Yes all level whatever's are not equal and they shouldn't be treated as they are.

Thanks for the sensible response. I asked my DD if she felt like the coaches treated the girls in the different training groups differently, and she said it depended on the coach. The head coach, she said, actually spends more time with the kids who are struggling with skills and gives the "higher" girls more independent assignments on FX and BB, while the bars coaches spend more time hands-on with the "higher" girls uptraining skills.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

And for perspective. Had the level drama last summer. When coaches elected to put my kid kid in level 5 and not score her out as was their original plan. Long story short. My daughter got what she needed to get. Her gymnastics is better because of it. Took the coaches advice last summer. I no longer care about her level or what the other kids are doing. There will always be someone doing more hours, more privates, getting skill x quicker. We focus on her gymnastics.

And the higher up they go, it really becomes difficult to keep the group together. They just go at their own pace.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

 

[SMH]

This is my daughter's first year in competitive gymnastics, level 3, and their team has 2 different training groups.
The one my daughter is in consists mostly of the younger ( 6 and 7 yr old) level 3's, with a few older girls. These girls joined team with maybe just a few of the level 3 skills.
The second training group is all girls who are doing a second year of level 3, and the older, new team members who already had a majority of level 3 skills upon joining team.

 

[Gymmommy71]

We have an A vs B group setup in our gym for some of the compulsory levels - the B group has coaches who don't push them very hard to get skills and they don't do as much conditioning. They also go one less day per week of training (so it's 3 hours less training). They compete at the same meets.

Guess what, all the A group kids have qualified for states, get good scores, etc., but many of the B's are still struggling to do so. Many B group parents are angry and considering new gyms come summer if the gym won't move their kid to A group. I don't really blame them. I guess some may try to argue that the less intense training is what "is best" for the B group kids, but I don't see how that can be - so it's okay for these kids to not do as well for some reason? It's okay for them to not have access to the same training as their peers from the same gym that they they compete with at meets? Perhaps some coaches feel those kids will cry or want to quit w/ the harder training, but I don't think that's the case for all of them.

I personally think the gym just doesn't want to turn away their parents money (and booster time commitment) and they are all just too young or too good for Xcel at this point. I feel bad for the families cause it is creating a lot of stress for some of them to have their kid be treated as "less than" others at such a young age. Some are even spending a lot of money on privates to try and compensate/eventually fix the predicament they are in.

 

[JessSyd]

My daughter's previous gym briefly had A and B training groups and it turned things toxic. The A kids were in a small group with a talented coach. The rest of the kids were in a large group with a coach who was OK, but much less experienced and less able to adjust her coaching to meet the needs of individual kids.

The A kids got lots of highly customised hands on coaching. The B kids all got run through the same drills and spent too much time lining up for apparatus.

The A kids scored very well at competition and brought the gym lots of positive attention.

The B kids were clearly only competed because the parents expected it.

All the parents were paying the same for tuition, but their kids were not getting the same opportunities. A new head coach started and implemented mixed ability equal sized training groups who share coaches. The more talented gymnasts still do very well. And the less naturally talented kids are doing better too.

And more importantly it has bought the girls together as a team. There is no more 'them and us' and the gym seems like a happier place, not just the parents.

 

[rjb123]

They do, but not so openly. And over the years I have come to this realization: if you trust this gym and coaches to coach your child on these skills- which as they go up in levels get increasingly scary and risky, then you should trust that they know what group to put your child in for training. If you don't feel comfortable trusting them with something as small as choosing the training group for your child, then you probably should have taken them to another gym like yesterday. I am not trying to be ugly, just trying to point out that in the scheme of things, a training group assignment is peanuts - my daughter has been in the "good" group, the "bad" group, and the "average" group. I have always told her that a training group is just that- a training group. Being on the "a" team doesn't guarantee you a spot to the olympics or nationals, regionals or states. How hard you work, how you listen to and apply your corrections and your focus every single day in the gym determines those things. And I also remind her that if she trusts her coaches (always a good convo to have btw- do you trust your coaches want what is best for you) then she needs to trust that they put her in this group FOR A REASON. period. And these things matter so little the longer you stay in this sport. I don't frankly CARE what group my DD is in any more. Just tell me when to drop her and how much it is going to cost.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

They do, but not so openly. And over the years I have come to this realization: if you trust this gym and coaches to coach your child on these skills- which as they go up in levels get increasingly scary and risky, then you should trust that they know what group to put your child in for training. If you don't feel comfortable trusting them with something as small as choosing the training group for your child, then you probably should have taken them to another gym like yesterday. I am not trying to be ugly, just trying to point out that in the scheme of things, a training group assignment is peanuts - my daughter has been in the "good" group, the "bad" group, and the "average" group. I have always told her that a training group is just that- a training group. Being on the "a" team doesn't guarantee you a spot to the olympics or nationals, regionals or states. How hard you work, how you listen to and apply your corrections and your focus every single day in the gym determines those things. And I also remind her that if she trusts her coaches (always a good convo to have btw- do you trust your coaches want what is best for you) then she needs to trust that they put her in this group FOR A REASON. period. And these things matter so little the longer you stay in this sport. I don't frankly CARE what group my DD is in any more. Just tell me when to drop her and how much it is going to cost.

This and to add. I think as parents we set the tone and kids pick up on our signals. Verbal and non verbal. So if as parent we make a big deal out of a "training group" no matter what you call it our kids will make a big deal about it.

My kid too has been in the higher group and not. I tell her the coach wants the best that you all kids can do. I tell her the only thing she needs to pay attention to is her gymnastics. At this point it is about skills. The level and group is the least of it.

 

[triplethreat+1]

Our gym has training groups which don't really go by level, but number of hours. My YDD group is lvl 1-3 2x 3hr weekly, there's another group 3x 3hr, and at least one younger and two older groups all in compulsories. I think it works really well. You are recommended to a group, but can request a lower or higher hour group and usually get it. So generally no hard feelings as parents get what their child needs. And, they all have good coaches.
But we'll see how comps go, we start next month! From what I've seen some of the lower hour girls will be just as competitive as the higher hour.

 

[RosellaJam]

DD's gym had two different trainign groups for her level last year. They trained on different days but came together for meets as there were too many girls for 1 training group. A couple of parents weren't particularly happy when they realised their DD's were on the "B" team, but they were the crazy parents that would have found something to complain about anyway.

 

[thefellowsmom]

This is why I hate grouping by levels. Don't get me started. We have now been in several gyms and my favorite is there is a group 1,2,3,4 situation. The groups are formed considering level, ability, work ethic and goals. The groups have several levels in them and they overlap. Ex gr 1 has 8,9,10 and group 2 has 8,9 and group three has 7,8 etc down the line. Group 1 and two have the same hours and same coaches and it goes down from there with excellent yet assistant coaches verses the he'd coaches coaching the first two groups.

All the kids get what they need. Getting hung up on everyone getting the same will just lead to frustration because I have been at this a long time now and the reality is that some kids get more. It just is what it is. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean the others are getting worse.

Let's take the OPs scenario of group a and b at the same compulsory levels with the higher scorers going to the a group. This actually makes a lot of sense to me. The kids who are already scoring very well at meets are working on perfecting their routines and nailing pressure sets. They may not need as many numbers as the lower scoring girls on this stuff and that leaves more room for uptraining.

The lower scoring group needs more time perfecting the skills for this level and a higher number of routines to perfect all those details they need to be working on if they aren't scoring high.

Can this all be done with the kids all mixed up? Yes, with individualized assignments and independent work, which is how it is done in combined level groups up in optionals. But, if you have enough kids for two groups then it seems it would be a lot more efficient and work better for all the kids involved if they can split them and easily give each group what they need.

This is hard for parents on both sides. It is easy for us all to feel bad and sympathize with the kid in the lower group that wants more but I am just going to say (and will probably get bitten at for it as that is usually how it works) that as a parent of a kid at the other end of the spectrum it is frustrating there as well. When your kid is capable of more and wants more and the resources are going to the masses because no one wants to upset anyone by giving more to the kids that need it, it is very frustrating too. There are always two sides to every situation.

The coaches are doing their best to manage the situation in their gym the best they can. I have never met a coach who wasn't working their asses off to give every kid what they need and help every kid reach their potential. Sometimes the situation is tricky to manage and sometimes they make mistakes. But, in general, they aren't trying to help some succeed and not others, it's just that success looks different for each and every one of them.

The cold hard truth is that not every kid is capable of the same. This sport is brutal on the ego of parents. Just when you think you have it all figured out and are feeling confident, it will beat you down and humble you like nothing else. Some kids have so much talent and things come so easy and some of those kids make it and a lot of them don't, some kids have good talent and an excellent work ethic and find success and some have a lower level of talent or their body isn't perfect for this or it is but injuries take it all away. You can't predict and that is why everyone always reminds us that it is about the journey and not to get caught up in the outcomes. Your child is building life skills that it is difficult to get elsewhere and that has to be what it is about even if that means coming in last or going to the olympics.

You must trust the head coach and the philosophy of the gym. You will travel through lower level coaches and they will come and go, but you must buy into the program. If you don't know what the philosophy is or what the program means then ask the head coach or owner of the gym, whichever is accessible to answer your questions. Once you understand you either need to buy in and trust, while maintaining communication of course. Or, you must leave and find a program you can believe in.

We just had to leave a program, not because there was anything wrong with what they were doing, but my dd and the head coach could simply not get on the same page and the philosophy of their program wasn't something she could live with or succeed in. So, we found a program that does work for her. Simple as that.

Sorry... I did it again.

 

[Really]

I'm the OP. Thank you, thefellowsmom, for the very thoughtful analysis! I thought it must be an efficiency thing. Right now DD and I are content with this gym and the training she is getting, but it is hard to have to listen to other parents who are not. If any of you have any solutions for how to shut down that kind of negative talk politely, I'd love to hear it! And yes, I've already taken the advice to not go to practices very much to heart! This was an uncharacteristic slip in judgment on my part!

This is why I hate grouping by levels. Don't get me started. We have now been in several gyms and my favorite is there is a group 1,2,3,4 situation. The groups are formed considering level, ability, work ethic and goals. The groups have several levels in them and they overlap. Ex gr 1 has 8,9,10 and group 2 has 8,9 and group three has 7,8 etc down the line. Group 1 and two have the same hours and same coaches and it goes down from there with excellent yet assistant coaches verses the he'd coaches coaching the first two groups.

All the kids get what they need. Getting hung up on everyone getting the same will just lead to frustration because I have been at this a long time now and the reality is that some kids get more. It just is what it is. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean the others are getting worse.

Let's take the OPs scenario of group a and b at the same compulsory levels with the higher scorers going to the a group. This actually makes a lot of sense to me. The kids who are already scoring very well at meets are working on perfecting their routines and nailing pressure sets. They may not need as many numbers as the lower scoring girls on this stuff and that leaves more room for uptraining.

The lower scoring group needs more time perfecting the skills for this level and a higher number of routines to perfect all those details they need to be working on if they aren't scoring high.

Can this all be done with the kids all mixed up? Yes, with individualized assignments and independent work, which is how it is done in combined level groups up in optionals. But, if you have enough kids for two groups then it seems it would be a lot more efficient and work better for all the kids involved if they can split them and easily give each group what they need.

This is hard for parents on both sides. It is easy for us all to feel bad and sympathize with the kid in the lower group that wants more but I am just going to say (and will probably get bitten at for it as that is usually how it works) that as a parent of a kid at the other end of the spectrum it is frustrating there as well. When your kid is capable of more and wants more and the resources are going to the masses because no one wants to upset anyone by giving more to the kids that need it, it is very frustrating too. There are always two sides to every situation.

The coaches are doing their best to manage the situation in their gym the best they can. I have never met a coach who wasn't working their asses off to give every kid what they need and help every kid reach their potential. Sometimes the situation is tricky to manage and sometimes they make mistakes. But, in general, they aren't trying to help some succeed and not others, it's just that success looks different for each and every one of them.

The cold hard truth is that not every kid is capable of the same. This sport is brutal on the ego of parents. Just when you think you have it all figured out and are feeling confident, it will beat you down and humble you like nothing else. Some kids have so much talent and things come so easy and some of those kids make it and a lot of them don't, some kids have good talent and an excellent work ethic and find success and some have a lower level of talent or their body isn't perfect for this or it is but injuries take it all away. You can't predict and that is why everyone always reminds us that it is about the journey and not to get caught up in the outcomes. Your child is building life skills that it is difficult to get elsewhere and that has to be what it is about even if that means coming in last or going to the olympics.

You must trust the head coach and the philosophy of the gym. You will travel through lower level coaches and they will come and go, but you must buy into the program. If you don't know what the philosophy is or what the program means then ask the head coach or owner of the gym, whichever is accessible to answer your questions. Once you understand you either need to buy in and trust, while maintaining communication of course. Or, you must leave and find a program you can believe in.

We just had to leave a program, not because there was anything wrong with what they were doing, but my dd and the head coach could simply not get on the same page and the philosophy of their program wasn't something she could live with or succeed in. So, we found a program that does work for her. Simple as that.

Sorry... I did it again.

 

[Tigtimes]

If any of you have any solutions for how to shut down that kind of negative talk politely, I'd love to hear it!

The cold hard truth is that not every kid is capable of the same. This sport is brutal on the ego of parents.

There is no way to,politely shut it down, as thefellowsmom so perfectly explained it becomes an ego thing. Best advice is to walk away anything you say will just fuel their fire.

 

[wgagym]

From a coaching perspective you are able
To do A lot more with your athletes when they are grouped together according to ability. I may have a group of kids in the same level moving at completely different paces.

If I don't separate them then either the gymnast who is moving quickly gets held up, then gets bored, then quits. The gymnast at who is moving at a slower pace gets left behind in skills, gets frustrated, and quits.

See what I am getting at.... if you don't get them training with the appropriate group it is a recipe for disaster.

 

[LindyHopper]

If any of you have any solutions for how to shut down that kind of negative talk politely, I'd love to hear it!

Wait for a slight break in conversation and change topics. Tell someone you like her shoes, tell someone that the color they are wearing is flattering. Ask someone a question about one of their Non-gym kids. Ask for movie/restaurant reccomendations for upcoming weekend.

Sometimes they might go right back to complaining, but with follow up questions, you might get the whole group talking about something else.

And if there isn't a real break, you could do one of these: "I know that this has nothing to do with what we are talking about, but I just noticed your shoes and I have to ask, Are they as comfortable as they look? I had a crazy day on my feet today and they look like heaven. Where did you get them?"

It's not exactly a smooth transition, but when people are caught up in new topic, they won't necessarily remember the clumsy change of topic.

 

[z2akids]

There is a local gym that has 3 separate USAG teams for Level 4. They have the itty bitties - the TOPs kids, the older girls who often are 2nd years and then a middle group. They go to mostly the same meets, but often compete in different sessions. The Tops group almost always wins. Fortunately, my DD is old enough that she isnt usually in an awards group with those phenoms. The middle of the road group has a wid age range and mostly 1st year 4s. They do well, but are not quite so feared at meets. The older group often does very well as they are mostly 2nd years and average a little older. I dont really know how they train, just thst they are 3 different trajectories and it seems to work for this gym. They have a very successful program with 10s, Elites and National Team members.

Just another thought that the different groups may relate to the trajectory the HC sees for these girls

 

[raenndrops]

I'm a teacher myself, and I disagree with your notion that ability grouping is bad for kids (for gym and school). Why the big push for differentiation?

In school, kids are ability grouped in reading, math, intervention, RSP, SDC, high achievers, GATE, etc.
In gym, kids are grouped age, level, speed of skill acquisition, homeschool, TOPs, HOPES, elite, etc.

Now, I'm certainly no gym expert, and I wouldn't like teams to be considered A group & B group (there's a connotation there). However, I definitely see a need for differentiation.

Thank you. I was always in the highest reading group through 7th grade. The lowest group was 3 books behind (they were in the book I had for 4th grade). The next year, the district went with a new series and put ALL the 8th graders in the same book. They did this in all the grades. The book they put us in was the one my group should have been in, so the lower level students really struggled. I had reading 1st period. We were all the ones from the highest level (also highest in math and we were taking Algebra 1, which is why we had reading 1st). The teacher admitted to us after 6 weeks that we were her guinea pigs. If we struggled with something, she had to drastically modify it for her other classes.

In gym, it is easier to have girls who need to work on skill A together, etc. If a gym has a "stupid" rule that girls have to do 2 years led level in compulsories, it makes sense to split them into 1st year and 2nd year.
If the A and B are based on who solidly has the skills and who still needs to work on skills, it also makes sense. However, they should all get the coaching they need.

 

[SMH]

Our two training groups per level (in level 3 and 4) definitely speak to the gyms philosophy-
they told us when our child makes team that 'almost everyone repeats levels 3 and 4' - the new or less skilled girls don't uptrain as much as the second year/more skilled girls. The second year/more skilled group is sometimes referred to as 'level 3 training for level 4' and
have a more likely chance of not repeating because of that.
Training hours are low compared to other gyms, in 3 and 4 also.

 

[Ms.Pak-Man]

A good coach should be able to train mixed ability groups within a level. Not necessarily diff level groups (ex. lvl 3s mixed with 4s). If anything groups should be spilt on height, so coaches can make equipment time more efficient, or age if there are a lot of kids with a wide range of ages. If kids level is that different in ability they should not be competing the same level, imo. Speaking from experience of being a gymnast in that situation, being involved with gyms that do this, but at a gym where kids are successfully integrated (each kid has their own tailored program so they are quite varied w/in training groups, but not more than a level). Moving kids within same level A and B groups season to season is a recipe for unhappy parents and grief for coaches. Does your gym have an Xcel program? This would be better if there is indeed such a large difference in ability that the coach couldn't train them together. Much better for the self-esteem of the lesser ability kids.