Parents Advice, gym fit, level 4

[Gymgirl84]

I don't know where you are, but I've seen some footage from GAGE and Al Fong that sounds a lot like what your current gym is doing. It surprised me when I saw it, but they seem to get it more or less together for the upper levels.
There are many programs that focus a lot on refining every detail of compulsories but can't get girls past level 5-6.
I don't really know the exact way to balance it (I used to be more of the ones checking every detail in lower levels and now I have some key aspects that I work a lot, but on the rest I'm not so detailed).
Just to give you another perspective maybe.

 

[TumbleTwist]

Great points, thank you.

Yes me neither. It is very apparent tho. Her form has worsened across the season on key skills. I can see it clearly thru videos I’ve taken. I ask if they correct or instruct on it and they don’t. Practices are too big and coaches spread too thin. One girl had an element she was doing wrong or replaced with something else and it was causing a .5 deduction and her mom figured it out. That’s the kind of stuff I’m worried about. I don’t feel I should have to buy the manual and train myself to help her identify corrections. And again, she’s not just a strong athlete / but not great compulsory gymnast. She’s a 39 compulsory gymnast who learned it all in 4 months. Nothing is different this year except the structure of practice and coaching and just how disorganized it all feels. I think I’m answering my own questions. I’m just so disappointed because I wanted this to work.

I'm confused. You state "She’s a 39 compulsory gymnast", yet she's struggling to score 36's in L4? Or are you saying she's a 39 compulsory gymnast solely based on her scores in L3? Because that's comparing apples to oranges. L3 isn't even a required level. You claim nothing is different this year except the structure of practice and coaching. But there is something different: L4 is HARDER than L3. A lot harder. Period. I've seen plenty of girls kill it in L2, L3, and then struggle in L4.

 

[HannahBanana]

I'm confused. You state "She’s a 39 compulsory gymnast", yet she's struggling to score 36's in L4? Or are you saying she's a 39 compulsory gymnast solely based on her scores in L3? Because that's comparing apples to oranges. L3 isn't even a required level. You claim nothing is different this year except the structure of practice and coaching. But there is something different: L4 is HARDER than L3. A lot harder. Period. I've seen plenty of girls kill it in L2, L3, and then struggle in L4.

Yes, 39 last year at a different gym. Which is why I’m questioning whether it’s working this year. I understand 4 is harder but this discrepancy doesn’t add up. I’ve reviewed scores and data and have yet to find a child at either gym with this big of a gap from 3 to 4 in scores. Which is leading me to wonder/believe that current coaching style and lack of structure is impacting her specifically. 35/36 does not map to her skill and ability level and as I stated elsewhere in thread I don’t think she’s being corrected in simple/minor things which is affecting her scores. I am not caring greatly about scores over growth and mindset except for the fact that scores are required to move on.

 

[3rd_time_around]

We were told this by the gym coaches and owners. I’m not just extrapolating because I’m a bored parent living vicariously thru my child. This sport was not my idea.

Some gyms say this to keep a kid in their program, it’s actually said a lot. I’m not trying to be rude, but I’ve been in the sport a very long time. I’ve seen many a talented compulsory gymnast flame out by level 7. I’ve seen gymnasts who didn’t even qualify to state meets in lower levels 2 years in a row become amazing optional gymnasts. I’ve seen talent that would blow you away just up and quit. I’ve seen gymnasts earn full rides on D1 college teams suddenly retire from the sport.

You cannot base future outcomes on compulsory performance. Level 3 is relatively easy compared to level 4 and 5. This often is a problem with kids used to being at the top of the list in level 3 suddenly struggling in level 4. Your child at 8 years old doesn’t need the stress from the pressure to be the same as she was last season. She can feel it even if you’ve avoided voicing it to her. But I have a feeling, because I’ve been in the sport a long time, that you have spoken it in front of her or to her. You have to understand that each level is different, and each kid is different and progresses and regresses at their own pace. (Yes, they do regress, even with the best coaching and environment).

Don't base your expectations on level 3, because its just doesn't matter when it comes to future ability and success. If she's happy there, give it another year, yes, even if she has to repeat level 4. But seriously, you do not want your daughter to go to level 6 if she's struggling to get a 36 AA in level 4. Trust the process, because there are factors that you don't understand about the sport. (I thought I understood it pretty good after 11 years of my kids competing, but when I started studying for my first judging test, I realized that I knew nothing.) Take a deep breath and enjoy watching her, because even the worst kid in the gym is better than the average kid on the street. Enjoy this time with her at this young age. You can worry later when she's a little older and has time to figure out what she wants from the sport and where she's going.

 

[TumbleTwist]

Yes, 39 last year at a different gym. Which is why I’m questioning whether it’s working this year. I understand 4 is harder but this discrepancy doesn’t add up. I’ve reviewed scores and data and have yet to find a child at either gym with this big of a gap from 3 to 4 in scores. Which is leading me to wonder/believe that current coaching style and lack of structure is impacting her specifically. 35/36 does not map to her skill and ability level and as I stated elsewhere in thread I don’t think she’s being corrected in simple/minor things which is affecting her scores. I am not caring greatly about scores over growth and mindset except for the fact that scores are required to move on.

So am I understanding correctly that your daughter is the only one at her current gym whose scores have dropped significantly from L3 to L4?

 

[HannahBanana]

So am I understanding correctly that your daughter is the only one at her current gym whose scores have dropped significantly from L3 to L4?

No, lots of overall drops. but among very high scoring l3 I don’t see anyone struggling 35/36 at l4 - my hypothesis is that this gym is not good fit for her specifically. Clearly that’s working ok for bulk of other solid scorers who were 36/37 last year and 35/36/37 this year. Or those who were 34/35 last year and 34 this year. She is the anomaly is what I’m saying. And in reviewing lots of gym data I don’t see that kind of drop off at level 4. no injuries and no growth spurts.

 

[HannahBanana]

Some gyms say this to keep a kid in their program, it’s actually said a lot. I’m not trying to be rude, but I’ve been in the sport a very long time. I’ve seen many a talented compulsory gymnast flame out by level 7. I’ve seen gymnasts who didn’t even qualify to state meets in lower levels 2 years in a row become amazing optional gymnasts. I’ve seen talent that would blow you away just up and quit. I’ve seen gymnasts earn full rides on D1 college teams suddenly retire from the sport.

You cannot base future outcomes on compulsory performance. Level 3 is relatively easy compared to level 4 and 5. This often is a problem with kids used to being at the top of the list in level 3 suddenly struggling in level 4. Your child at 8 years old doesn’t need the stress from the pressure to be the same as she was last season. She can feel it even if you’ve avoided voicing it to her. But I have a feeling, because I’ve been in the sport a long time, that you have spoken it in front of her or to her. You have to understand that each level is different, and each kid is different and progresses and regresses at their own pace. (Yes, they do regress, even with the best coaching and environment).

Don't base your expectations on level 3, because its just doesn't matter when it comes to future ability and success. If she's happy there, give it another year, yes, even if she has to repeat level 4. But seriously, you do not want your daughter to go to level 6 if she's struggling to get a 36 AA in level 4. Trust the process, because there are factors that you don't understand about the sport. (I thought I understood it pretty good after 11 years of my kids competing, but when I started studying for my first judging test, I realized that I knew nothing.) Take a deep breath and enjoy watching her, because even the worst kid in the gym is better than the average kid on the street. Enjoy this time with her at this young age. You can worry later when she's a little older and has time to figure out what she wants from the sport and where she's going.

Yes of course. I responded that to another response saying that remark had not originally come from me.

 

[Gymgirl84]

I think your gym does not bother with minor corrections, because it is not their focus. Probably they consider (and if they are successful at upper levels they might probably be right) those details take too much time right now for the impact that they'll have on high level skills. So they might focus on a couple of points that are important to them to give the basis for higher level gymnastics and not so much on details or text errors,...
Anyway you could go ask what their philosophy on that topic is.

 

[HannahBanana]

Some gyms say this to keep a kid in their program, it’s actually said a lot. I’m not trying to be rude, but I’ve been in the sport a very long time. I’ve seen many a talented compulsory gymnast flame out by level 7. I’ve seen gymnasts who didn’t even qualify to state meets in lower levels 2 years in a row become amazing optional gymnasts. I’ve seen talent that would blow you away just up and quit. I’ve seen gymnasts earn full rides on D1 college teams suddenly retire from the sport.

You cannot base future outcomes on compulsory performance. Level 3 is relatively easy compared to level 4 and 5. This often is a problem with kids used to being at the top of the list in level 3 suddenly struggling in level 4. Your child at 8 years old doesn’t need the stress from the pressure to be the same as she was last season. She can feel it even if you’ve avoided voicing it to her. But I have a feeling, because I’ve been in the sport a long time, that you have spoken it in front of her or to her. You have to understand that each level is different, and each kid is different and progresses and regresses at their own pace. (Yes, they do regress, even with the best coaching and environment).

Don't base your expectations on level 3, because its just doesn't matter when it comes to future ability and success. If she's happy there, give it another year, yes, even if she has to repeat level 4. But seriously, you do not want your daughter to go to level 6 if she's struggling to get a 36 AA in level 4. Trust the process, because there are factors that you don't understand about the sport. (I thought I understood it pretty good after 11 years of my kids competing, but when I started studying for my first judging test, I realized that I knew nothing.) Take a deep breath and enjoy watching her, because even the worst kid in the gym is better than the average kid on the street. Enjoy this time with her at this young age. You can worry later when she's a little older and has time to figure out what she wants from the sport and where she's going.

Thank you for your concern and you’re right about not pressuring her and such. But you’re wrong - I’ve absolutely not vocalized that to her. I am a counselor and emotional health and wellbeing is my utmost concern. And why I pulled her from a gym that helped her perform top. If that isn’t evidence I don’t know what is. But I am also sorting thru the data and trying to understand lackluster scores this year. Maybe it’s my autism but I’m trying to understand what’s happening to inform our path forward. She is also not happy. Despite reorienting her toward growth she has been devastated at how things are going. So I am taking that lead from her.

 

[HannahBanana]

I think your gym does not bother with minor corrections, because it is not their focus. Probably they consider (and if they are successful at upper levels they might probably be right) those details take too much time right now for the impact that they'll have on high level skills. So they might focus on a couple of points that are important to them to give the basis for higher level gymnastics and not so much on details or text errors,...
Anyway you could go ask what their philosophy on that topic is.

This is helpful, thank u. This is kind of what I was getting at in original post in making sense of why it’s happening. I think you’re right I should ask to better understand full picture and full trajectory instead of over analyzing a snapshot of scores!

 

[3rd_time_around]

One last thing and I'm out. You keep contradicting yourself, and you might not realize it, but you said she was happy and now you're saying she's not happy.

Overall from reading this whole thread, I think you are focusing too much on scores. The focus should be on progression. But with progression you have to consider physical growth and changes, mental changes like sudden fear or blocks that she might not want to tell you about because she thinks you'll freak out or try to "fix" her, and other non-tangeable factors that we parents don't know or understand because we aren't the ones doing the sport. You need to just take a step back and give it more time. Stressing about level 4 scores is just not productive, and isn't a measure of the gym or future success. Some kids just struggle when it becomes harder, and level 4 is harder than levels 1-3. The requirements are tougher, the scoring is tougher, and it is the first level with "real" gymnastics (like kips, high bar dismounts, acro on beam, and the vault table). She can adapt if she is as good as you say, just give her some time to catch up. (I'd love to see a video of her competing, just to see and have a point of reference. )

Also, this forum is loaded with people with decades of experience and good advice, take the time to listen.

 

[HannahBanana]

One last thing and I'm out. You keep contradicting yourself, and you might not realize it, but you said she was happy and now you're saying she's not happy.

Overall from reading this whole thread, I think you are focusing too much on scores. The focus should be on progression. But with progression you have to consider physical growth and changes, mental changes like sudden fear or blocks that she might not want to tell you about because she thinks you'll freak out or try to "fix" her, and other non-tangeable factors that we parents don't know or understand because we aren't the ones doing the sport. You need to just take a step back and give it more time. Stressing about level 4 scores is just not productive, and isn't a measure of the gym or future success. Some kids just struggle when it becomes harder, and level 4 is harder than levels 1-3. The requirements are tougher, the scoring is tougher, and it is the first level with "real" gymnastics (like kips, high bar dismounts, acro on beam, and the vault table). She can adapt if she is as good as you say, just give her some time to catch up. (I'd love to see a video of her competing, just to see and have a point of reference. )

Also, this forum is loaded with people with decades of experience and good advice, take the time to listen.

Understood, thanks for overall thoughts.

She is happy at gym in that she thinks everyone is “nice” and fun. She is deeply upset and loses sleep over her scores and performance. I am trying to put her in best environment for both.

 

[HannahBanana]

One last thing and I'm out. You keep contradicting yourself, and you might not realize it, but you said she was happy and now you're saying she's not happy.

Overall from reading this whole thread, I think you are focusing too much on scores. The focus should be on progression. But with progression you have to consider physical growth and changes, mental changes like sudden fear or blocks that she might not want to tell you about because she thinks you'll freak out or try to "fix" her, and other non-tangeable factors that we parents don't know or understand because we aren't the ones doing the sport. You need to just take a step back and give it more time. Stressing about level 4 scores is just not productive, and isn't a measure of the gym or future success. Some kids just struggle when it becomes harder, and level 4 is harder than levels 1-3. The requirements are tougher, the scoring is tougher, and it is the first level with "real" gymnastics (like kips, high bar dismounts, acro on beam, and the vault table). She can adapt if she is as good as you say, just give her some time to catch up. (I'd love to see a video of her competing, just to see and have a point of reference. )

Also, this forum is loaded with people with decades of experience and good advice, take the time to listen.

I really do appreciate various thoughts, questions and opinions and the time spent writing them. I posted here because I felt caught up in a churn of thinking and trying to assess. I had various theories about underlying causes to her current situation and the thread has helped me add to those and also challenged a few of my theories. Overall in my observations in forums like this I see many people say not to focus on scores which I also agree with but then conflicts with gym and usag score requirements so it’s hard to balance that. The girls themselves are very focused on it and she carries that message home. I also see many folks defend gyms as knowing what they’re doing (of course!) and to trust the process etc but also hard to balance when I know/hear other families have left for very similar reasons I am feeling. And hard to know where that cut off lies. :/ All of it has been way harder than I imagined.

 

[TumbleTwist]

Understood, thanks for overall thoughts.

She is happy at gym in that she thinks everyone is “nice” and fun. She is deeply upset and loses sleep over her scores and performance. I am trying to put her in best environment for both.

If your daughter is "deeply upset and losing sleep over her scores and performance", it's time to take a step back and reevaluate. You say scores don't matter, but also admit to pouring over scores and comparing her progress to teammates progress.

Mama...stop and take a breath. Stop looking at scores. You say "35/36 does not map to her skill and ability level". I find this an interesting statement. There is no typical path for ANY gymnast. I can't help but sense you have certain expectations of her (probably based on her success in L3), and that your frustrations over her scores are being passed onto her, without you even realizing it.

You have a kid who scored really high in level 3. And probably got lots of recognition and praise for doing so. And then she moves on to level 4 which is a much harder level. All of a sudden it's not as fun. Does your daughter truly understand that it's not always going to be as easy as L3? Does she understand that it gets harder as she moves up? Is she solely motivated by scores? Because if she is, DP is going to be a long road for her. Maybe xcel would be a better path for her.

Maybe it's time to have a conversation with your daughter and talk about her goals? And I don't mean the goal of college or elite. I mean shorter-term goals. HER goals. Not YOURS.

 

[HannahBanana]

If your daughter is "deeply upset and losing sleep over her scores and performance", it's time to take a step back and reevaluate. You say scores don't matter, but also admit to pouring over scores and comparing her progress to teammates progress.

Mama...stop and take a breath. Stop looking at scores. You say "35/36 does not map to her skill and ability level". I find this an interesting statement. There is no typical path for ANY gymnast. I can't help but sense you have certain expectations of her (probably based on her success in L3), and that your frustrations over her scores are being passed onto her, without you even realizing it.

You have a kid who scored really high in level 3. And probably got lots of recognition and praise for doing so. And then she moves on to level 4 which is a much harder level. All of a sudden it's not as fun. Does your daughter truly understand that it's not always going to be as easy as L3? Does she understand that it gets harder as she moves up? Is she solely motivated by scores? Because if she is, DP is going to be a long road for her. Maybe xcel would be a better path for her.

Maybe it's time to have a conversation with your daughter and talk about her goals? And I don't mean the goal of college or elite. I mean shorter-term goals. HER goals. Not YOURS.

All great points, thank you. I do need to have that conversation with her and I think she’s being hard on herself.

I am an analyst at heart - like I said before, or it’s just my autism, trying to understand as best as I can with as much info as possible.

There are so many assumptions in these threads tho. Appreciative as I am for all of the discussion. Absolutely - her goals matter. Not “MINE”. There must be very many crazy gym parents for people to always assume anyone asking questions to better understand must be living thru their children. My true underlying belief is that I would have never in 1,000 years put my young child in this sport on purpose. She did rec as late starter and was called into it and I supported her. I actually bottom of my heart think it’s quite nuts in many ways. but for as much money as I’m paying and time as we’re spending I do want the best environment for her success because I see no reason to half *** something.

 

[HannahBanana]

All great points, thank you. I do need to have that conversation with her and I think she’s being hard on herself.

I am an analyst at heart - like I said before, or it’s just my autism, trying to understand as best as I can with as much info as possible.

There are so many assumptions in these threads tho. Appreciative as I am for all of the discussion. Absolutely - her goals matter. Not “MINE”. There must be very many crazy gym parents for people to always assume anyone asking questions to better understand must be living thru their children. My true underlying belief is that I would have never in 1,000 years put my young child in this sport on purpose. She did rec as late starter and was called into it and I supported her. I actually bottom of my heart think it’s quite nuts in many ways. but for as much money as I’m paying and time as we’re spending I do want the best environment for her success because I see no reason to half *** something.

If it were 100% up to me (and my partner) I would have her leave the sport as I think there's too much insanity and room to go wrong. Maybe I am subconsciously panicking and looking for a way out. Now there’s an insight I need to ponder.

 

[HannahBanana]

I'm confused. You state "She’s a 39 compulsory gymnast", yet she's struggling to score 36's in L4? Or are you saying she's a 39 compulsory gymnast solely based on her scores in L3? Because that's comparing apples to oranges. L3 isn't even a required level. You claim nothing is different this year except the structure of practice and coaching. But there is something different: L4 is HARDER than L3. A lot harder. Period. I've seen plenty of girls kill it in L2, L3, and then struggle in L4.

What’s different is… the gym and coaching. Which is rather major. Which is why I made my post.

If your daughter’s performance dropped precipitously and she was unhappy wouldn’t you do the same??

 

[Gymgirl84]

I don't think a 36 is that bad of a score for level 4, of course it is not a 38 or 39 or getting 9.7-9.9s. But is it that important in he long term to get every single hand/head/step of a compulsory routine perfect for it? Is that the right use of the time in the gym?
Even as a coach, I don't have the right answer and my focus has changed a bit along time, but they might be focusing on air awareness, on developing swing, on getting used to generate power, which might be more key in order to get double backs, release moves or big vaults.
Now if the problems lay more in base technique (ie. corbet action, handstands, straight arms on back extension rolls, head position on BHS or back tucks) rather than details it could be different. Only talking to the coaches and analyzing that a bit can you get the answer.

 

[TumbleTwist]

I hear what you are saying. I'm just suggesting that maybe the coaching/gym isn't the major problem. Especially since you're indicating that teammates scores are not dropping as much as your daughter's have from L3 to L4. I'm simply pointing out that maybe your daughter is having a hard time adjusting from being the "best" in L3, to average in L4. And maybe it has affected her motivation. I'm not saying that's the case. I could be wrong. But if others seem to be progressing fine with their current coaching situation, I just think it's worth sitting down and having a conversation with your daughter. Would she still want to continue with gymnastics if she's not winning lots of medals?

But most importantly...her mental health comes first. And if she's losing sleep over her scores, then something needs to change immediately. And a gym change is not what I mean. Because if you change gyms and she still doesn't perform up to her own standards, then what?

Does she set goals for herself before each meet? And I mean goals NOT related to scores. It could be getting her kip cast a little bit higher than last meet. It could be keeping her feet together on her RBHS. She should be setting small, reachable goals for herself. Something that will allow herself to feel a sense of accomplishment regardless of the score a judge gives.

I completely understand you want your daughter to be happy. Obviously that should be the #1 priority. The first step is defining what "happy" means to her.

 

[gym_dad32608]

Again, I am not sure you are listening to what several of us have tried to impart. I certainly understand the desire to understand and be able to directly correlate a cause and effect. But what we are all saying is that looking at data of outcomes at L3 and 4 has no validity in this analysis. Those scores are in no way a predictor or explanatory variable regarding coaching or gymnast progress at this level. Trying to use them to justify your hypothesis is a faulty analysis. It is not until upper level optionals, like L8 or above, that I would start to even consider looking at scores as an explanatory variable for progression and performance. It is not unusual for a gymnast to have a dip in results at this and other levels. That is really the normal process. At this stage the best explanatory variable would be coaching experience and past coaching results. And of course if your DD is in a safe and positive environment.

Or another way, if you are an investor, you do not make significant moves at the first blip of a market drop. You might take notice, you might start watching things closer, but you wait for a trend line to develop. Trying to time the market and make changes to your portfolio based on one change just introduces more volatility and risk to your portfolio. Consistent and steady reduces risk and maximizes potential returns. And yes I did make are children a stock LOL.

So take a step back, be the cheerleader mom, help her through struggles and be patient. The time to be more pro-active will come later if you need to.