WAG amazingly quick progress - what is the secret?

[Gymkateer]

Finally, this is why when you watch people who start or try gymnastics moves as an adult, it often lacks a smooth quality of movement even when they complete the skill. I'm inflexible and out of shape too but my brain allows me to move more fluently upside down and backward because of intense early exposure during critical developmental periods. And probably better overall body development even in small muscles and tendons in the upper body particularly that rarely develop in the course of ordinary life.

When you're talking about people who are learning skills as adults, you're generally talking about folks who are training for very low hours most likely without proper coaching either . I'd chalk up a lack of smoothness to the lack of hours and proper coaching, rather than say it's just because they are adults. Put a kid in that situation and see how smooth their gymnastics is.

 

[gymdog]

When you're talking about people who are learning skills as adults, you're generally talking about folks who are training for very low hours most likely without proper coaching either . I'd chalk up a lack of smoothness to the lack of hours and proper coaching, rather than say it's just because they are adults. Put a kid in that situation and see how smooth their gymnastics is.

Eh, go teach 10 adults a handstand forward roll and 10 kids. It is very difficult for inexperienced adults to do some things. I do nothing but yell at kids all week and I could do a handstand forward roll no problem.

Also, I used to teach tons of adult classes (not anymore, which I'm happy about). A lot of things really scared me. I'm not a believer in adults starting gymnastics and being able to learn anything, sorry. They can learn some things and improve overall fitness, but again go try teach 10 adults a handstand forward roll and you'll be nervous.

 

[Gymkateer]

Eh, go teach 10 adults a handstand forward roll and 10 kids. It is very difficult for inexperienced adults to do some things. I do nothing but yell at kids all week and I could do a handstand forward roll no problem.

Also, I used to teach tons of adult classes (not anymore, which I'm happy about). A lot of things really scared me. I'm not a believer in adults starting gymnastics and being able to learn anything, sorry. They can learn some things and improve overall fitness, but again go try teach 10 adults a handstand forward roll and you'll be nervous.

Sure, teach 10 adults and 10 kids, but what I'm saying is are they being taught the same way? If a kid goes once a week to a structured class and learns faster than an adult that goes once a week to an unstructured class, the kid might not be learning faster because they are a kid.

As far as getting nervous teaching adults handstand forward rolls, there's no need for that. Take it slow. Cuts down on the nervousness like a charm.

 

[gymdog]

Sure, teach 10 adults and 10 kids, but what I'm saying is are they being taught the same way? If a kid goes once a week to a structured class and learns faster than an adult that goes once a week to an unstructured class, the kid might not be learning faster because they are a kid.

As far as getting nervous teaching adults handstand forward rolls, there's no need for that. Take it slow. Cuts down on the nervousness like a charm.

Personally I've taught structured classes and they were longer than beginner kids classes. Actually adults can learn some things faster due to better coordination and visual development. But they also tend to have more difficulty with many things in my experience. So your argument is if I started doing gymnastics now, I could get just as good as I did when I was a child if I incrementally increased my training time? Sorry, but I don't buy it, due to tons of physical and mental factors, not just lack of time. But if you believe the opposite then I'm not going to try to stop you. I just don't think it's realistic.

 

[Gymkateer]

Personally I've taught structured classes and they were longer than beginner kids classes. Actually adults can learn some things faster due to better coordination and visual development. But they also tend to have more difficulty with many things in my experience. So your argument is if I started doing gymnastics now, I could get just as good as I did when I was a child if I incrementally increased my training time? Sorry, but I don't buy it, due to tons of physical and mental factors, not just lack of time. But if you believe the opposite then I'm not going to try to stop you. I just don't think it's realistic.

Not saying I don't believe that's possible but that's not my argument. I just think if you're comparing, you need to compare the same things.

 

[gymdog]

Not saying I don't believe that's possible but that's not my argument. I just think if you're comparing, you need to compare the same things.

Okay, well I'm comparing the exact same things in my experience. But if you have better luck more power to you. It seems pretty obvious to me that acquisition of many skills and movement patterning is easier during childhood. For example, recently I was at an open gym with some inexperienced friends. I was laying on a mat with my head hanging off of it so my upper body was upside down. I was like that for awhile and they said "wow, how can you do that? Don't you get dizzy?" It never occurred to me that hanging upside down this way would affect people.

I don't want to make it seem like I have anything against adult gymnastics. I'm glad people can experience the sport in any way.

 

[iwannacoach]

....... It seems pretty obvious to me that acquisition of many skills and movement patterning is easier during childhood.

This observation (may, but nearly convinced) be the result of something the medical community calls pruning. Pruning is a process, that we all go through as we're growing up, where the brain adapts to whatever stimuli are more present. The brain physically changes it's wiring to dedicate more brain synapses to parts of the brain responsible for these most prevalent activities.

The thing is (I think) that this is a re-distibution of neural resources so when one part grows in capacity, the donor part loses capacity. Most adults never experienced the type of movements we experience in gymnastics, and since the area of the brain that could have helped them has been pruned to the bare minimum in favor of their late adolescent/teen experiences.

Pruning tapers off between pueberty and the late 20's...... so while you can still develop a particular ability into your 20's, you'll have fewer neural resources at the ready. So yeah, a child who's reaching the peak of neural development at age 9 has a tremendous advantage.

It's a case of use it or lose it.

 

[Gymkateer]

Okay, well I'm comparing the exact same things in my experience. But if you have better luck more power to you. It seems pretty obvious to me that acquisition of many skills and movement patterning is easier during childhood. For example, recently I was at an open gym with some inexperienced friends. I was laying on a mat with my head hanging off of it so my upper body was upside down. I was like that for awhile and they said "wow, how can you do that? Don't you get dizzy?" It never occurred to me that hanging upside down this way would affect people.

I don't want to make it seem like I have anything against adult gymnastics. I'm glad people can experience the sport in any way.

I'm sorry, I didn't read your first post correctly. I thought when you compared yourself as someone who had already learned gymnastics moves to adults who were just learning gymnastics moves you were saying the adult who just learned would never be as good because they didn't learn the skill as a child. I think you were actually saying that you can relearn skills faster and do them better than an adult who is just learning skills because you have muscle memory from when you learned to do the skill properly the first time and they don't.

I've had lots of exposure to muscle memory so I know it's real. I've had adults learn things as adults and then quit. When they came back later, the skills they learned as an adult came back a lot more quickly then it took them to learn it the first time.

Most adults never learn to do any gymnastics moves properly. The first class is like, "Oh, you just tried forward roll and you made it, then you tried handstand you got vertical? All right, try handstand forward roll." This might be the first handstand forward roll they ever did in their life. For that matter, it might be the first two or three second handstand they do. Neither skill will look as good as it could look and it's not because they learned it as adults.

 

[gymdog]

This observation (may, but nearly convinced) be the result of something the medical community calls pruning. Pruning is a process, that we all go through as we're growing up, where the brain adapts to whatever stimuli are more present. The brain physically changes it's wiring to dedicate more brain synapses to parts of the brain responsible for these most prevalent activities.

The thing is (I think) that this is a re-distibution of neural resources so when one part grows in capacity, the donor part loses capacity. Most adults never experienced the type of movements we experience in gymnastics, and since the area of the brain that could have helped them has been pruned to the bare minimum in favor of their late adolescent/teen experiences.

Pruning tapers off between pueberty and the late 20's...... so while you can still develop a particular ability into your 20's, you'll have fewer neural resources at the ready. So yeah, a child who's reaching the peak of neural development at age 9 has a tremendous advantage.

It's a case of use it or lose it.

Basically, I agree with this idea. I'm sure there are exceptional people who happen to have very calibrated vestibular systems and lack the fear, etc to override reflexive instincts (which certain gymnastics moves require). I HAVE seen some people learn gymnastics as adults faster than others. And, as I said, they often learn basic techniques like how to do a cartwheel and step down from a handstand MUCH more quickly than children do. But other things are more difficult for them to overcome. And in my experience once children get things they will often go much faster. But there's really no way to prove anything unless we clone someone or something. On average it appears to me that adults have trouble overriding certain reflexes and throwing themselves into things as fast as would be ideal for gymnastics, and thus don't achieve the same quality of movement, but maybe you have a different experience.

 

[Gymkateer]

Basically, I agree with this idea. I'm sure there are exceptional people who happen to have very calibrated vestibular systems and lack the fear, etc to override reflexive instincts (which certain gymnastics moves require). I HAVE seen some people learn gymnastics as adults faster than others. And, as I said, they often learn basic techniques like how to do a cartwheel and step down from a handstand MUCH more quickly than children do. But other things are more difficult for them to overcome. And in my experience once children get things they will often go much faster. But there's really no way to prove anything unless we clone someone or something. On average it appears to me that adults have trouble overriding certain reflexes and throwing themselves into things as fast as would be ideal for gymnastics, and thus don't achieve the same quality of movement, but maybe you have a different experience.

I've seen the same thing you've seen but I chalk it up to some pretty obvious inequalities in training. I don't discount those inequalities as having a big effect on how the adult learns.

 

[Amusibus]

I believe an adult who was a gymnast as a child retains a lot of the motor pattern memories in their nervous system. You can watch high level gymnastics and kind of feel how it feels to do those things as you are watching. A couple times as an adult (late 20's, then late 30's) I have gone back and done adult classes. I am always amazed that while my brain knows just what to do, my body just doesn't bend certain ways anymore, and while I am sure I remember how for instance to do a kip, my muscles just aren't strong enough anymore. So I guess I agree with GymDog, seems like there are critical windows of learning for motor skills. An adult who never did gymnastics before can get very strong and very flexible but can they learn those motor patterns/ability to go upside down/twist whilst upside down, etc. I doubt it.