WAG Another uptraining question

[Deleted member 14190]

Hi coachp,

I know 'leaving the gym and not watching' is the magic pill to make all gymnastics programs and coaches perfect, I know, as what we naive and rose-goggled parents don't see, we can't question or judge. Really, I don't watch very much anymore. I think my question about expectations for 'uptraining' is legitimate, though. My intention was to get perspectives/examples of whether to expect a gymnast who is looking to compete L4 next fall to be learning progression for any skills beyond L4, given a gymnast who already has pretty strong L4 skills and the type of season/schedule our gym sticks to. My goal here is to assess one factor of gym fit (out of many factors) for my daughter who could be a candidate for high level gymnastics in the future given the right conditions. Therefore, I am assessing the conditions.

I gather by your comment to relax, that at your gym, a gymnast equivalent to my DD would not be learning any progressions toward L5 skills until completion of the L4 season, and therefore, my DD's current path is not something to be concerned about?

Cheers and thanks for reading!

==
It's impossible to caliber here on the internet based on a parents interpretation of what is going on compared to what is actually happening. (frankly, most parents in level 3 and 4 have a one way perception of what they see, sorry just a fact at every gym. In other words your interpretation of achieved skills and ours differ). So my comments are generally directed at the sheer amount of information given, which typically means that the parent is way to involved. However I do recognize that each program moves at different rates. In my area (like most) we have a little of everything. Some gyms move to fast and fail, some move slow and are great in compulsories but unable to move kids into optionals, and then a few actually succeed in success and mobility. So in conclusion, if you want accurate replies, you really need to post a video. To sum up your own conclusions, you simply need to go to Mymeetscores and look up your gymnasts team (all levels). Click on each kid, then do the same for the other gyms. Are they competitive in compulsories? Are they also competitive in Optionals? And most importantly, how many kids are in optionals that actually moved up from level 4 on that team, (which is old 3 now).

 

[Sasha]

Well, it sounds like your daughter has some solid level 4 skills. However, there are often problems with progressing a child too fast and you may go to another gym to find out going slower would have been best in the end and led to the same outcome with less stress. She may be able to do 5 now, but then if she does two seasons in 7 struggling with some fear, she will be in the same place as if she does 4,5,7. It is very common for these things to even out and that is what a good coach is thinking about with an 8 year old. It's okay for them to be wanting more. It's okay to get very comfortable, even too comfortable, with basics and continue to refine the technique. That is better than struggling and while the parents often think they will have more fun in the higher level, when the child struggles, falls, hurts that's rarely true. They typically enjoy being in a comfortable spot more. I have a gymnast currently in 3 who can do everything you describe but due to age I have other reasons for having her at 3 this year. I am sure if I pushed her and ignored form and details she could compete many levels up but it really doesn't make sense to sacrifice so much (technique, success) for no reason.

Thanks, gymdog. Right, I'm not expecting for her to skip anything just yet. I hear on CB pretty frequently (from coaches and parents) how gyms train additional skills in the off season to prepare gymnasts a level or two above what they will next compete (at least progressions if not ready for the skills). Sometimes kids might be moved ahead if they do learn quickly, but that may or may not be the goal. Since this is a frequently cited strategy, I've come to expect that a good gym might follow this approach. I frequently hear people complain that they were at a gym who drilled routines endlessly, so they left and are now at a gym that 'does it right' and progresses gymnasts to higher level skills either throughout the year, or during specific times.

My specific daughter and her skills aside, I guess I'm trying to ascertain if the strategy my gym has thus far followed, which is to only train the level you will compete in off-season, and then drill routines for 6 months, is an appropriate strategy for a gymnast who, say, aspires to college gym (I do realize odds against that, just using as a gauge)?

I know no one can give a 100% right answer. I am just looking for opinions on how all you experts think it should be done, and if anything seems 'off' at all. I like many things about our gym, and respect the coaches as professionals and people. I am just not sure of if the gym's goals and philosophies match what is ideal for my daughter. I am trying to figure that out. Thanks again.

Thank you again!

 

[rd7]

Hi, it might be that your DD is ahead of her group and the coaches are very aware but she is not quite ready for the next group as she has only competed the one year.

It sounds like your coaches are instilling a good basic skill base and when your DD moves up the bigger skills will come quickly plus she will have more meet experience which is also very important.

Short of creating a new group just for your DD I think the coaches have probably chosen the best option available for now.

In a couple of years you'll be able to look back and see that this scenario is just the way things are sometimes, we don't live in an ideal world and this will not affect your daughter's long term gymnastics in any negative way, and really it's probably a positive.

 

[profmom]

I think you should just ask the coaches what they're up to. Last year, DS was "held back" for a "repeat" year of L5 and did no -- I mean zero -- uptraining during the meet season, which stretched into April, even though he had been learning L6 skills the previous summer and had a decent handle on most of the L6 skills and routines. Instead, he polished and perfected L5 and basic skills the whole year from September to April. When summer came, he took off like a house on fire and has had a very solid start at L6 this year, while working on skills that he will need for optionals. I've come to believe that, regardless of the competitive level, time spent perfecting basics is never wasted.

 

[coachmolly]

I work at a newer gym with limited coaches, and there are definitely struggles that come along with that. I have kids in the same level all over the map in terms of skills and need to get creative sometimes. We do work a lot on basics. These are lower level kids and my goal is to get them strong and physically prepared for future levels in the short amount of time I have them. This means that sometimes the skills don't come quite as fast, but they have a good foundation- some of their foundational skills and strength abilities are better than those of the girls who train 3x as much.
However, I also try to mix in newer progressions as they are ready, even if that means 1 kid is doing something different from everyone else. It can make my head spin, and it's tough to tell a kid they aren't yet ready for a skill that her teammate is, but it helps to keep them all moving in a forward direction. It sounds like this might be a struggle your current coaches are navigating with such a wide skill range.
You can always talk to them, ask about their plan for your DD for the off-meet season. I know I don't have a problem with parents asking me a question about their daughters progress or my plans for them. As long as they are sincerely curious and not aggressive/accusatory in their approach.

 

[wgymmom]

Thanks, gymdog. Right, I'm not expecting for her to skip anything just yet. I hear on CB pretty frequently (from coaches and parents) how gyms train additional skills in the off season to prepare gymnasts a level or two above what they will next compete (at least progressions if not ready for the skills). Sometimes kids might be moved ahead if they do learn quickly, but that may or may not be the goal. Since this is a frequently cited strategy, I've come to expect that a good gym might follow this approach. I frequently hear people complain that they were at a gym who drilled routines endlessly, so they left and are now at a gym that 'does it right' and progresses gymnasts to higher level skills either throughout the year, or during specific times.

My specific daughter and her skills aside, I guess I'm trying to ascertain if the strategy my gym has thus far followed, which is to only train the level you will compete in off-season, and then drill routines for 6 months, is an appropriate strategy for a gymnast who, say, aspires to college gym (I do realize odds against that, just using as a gauge)?

I know no one can give a 100% right answer. I am just looking for opinions on how all you experts think it should be done, and if anything seems 'off' at all. I like many things about our gym, and respect the coaches as professionals and people. I am just not sure of if the gym's goals and philosophies match what is ideal for my daughter. I am trying to figure that out. Thanks again.

Thank you again!

Sounds like my gym, sounds like my DD... And good luck getting an answer from the coaches! We've been trying to get answers for 3+ seasons now to no avail..

 

[mom2newgymnast]

Thanks, gymdog. Right, I'm not expecting for her to skip anything just yet. I hear on CB pretty frequently (from coaches and parents) how gyms train additional skills in the off season to prepare gymnasts a level or two above what they will next compete (at least progressions if not ready for the skills). Sometimes kids might be moved ahead if they do learn quickly, but that may or may not be the goal. Since this is a frequently cited strategy, I've come to expect that a good gym might follow this approach. I frequently hear people complain that they were at a gym who drilled routines endlessly, so they left and are now at a gym that 'does it right' and progresses gymnasts to higher level skills either throughout the year, or during specific times.

My specific daughter and her skills aside, I guess I'm trying to ascertain if the strategy my gym has thus far followed, which is to only train the level you will compete in off-season, and then drill routines for 6 months, is an appropriate strategy for a gymnast who, say, aspires to college gym (I do realize odds against that, just using as a gauge)?

I know no one can give a 100% right answer. I am just looking for opinions on how all you experts think it should be done, and if anything seems 'off' at all. I like many things about our gym, and respect the coaches as professionals and people. I am just not sure of if the gym's goals and philosophies match what is ideal for my daughter. I am trying to figure that out. Thanks again.

Thank you again!

I am most definitely not an expert, but from what I have observed at my dd's gym in the past year, it seems that they follow a similar strategy at least in the lower levels. My dd just finished a level 2 season and now they are learning and training their level 3 skills. In May, they will make level decisions and then from May-December they will work on the skills for that level and then the routines and actually compete Sept-Dec. I don't believe they will work on any level 4 skills during the next 5 months. It is possible that they work on more uptraining as they get higher up in levels, but from what I've observed I think they tend to be a one level per year kind of gym. Although I did hear about one girl that moved from level 4 to level 7 recently so I guess it isn't impossible.

There is one girl on her team that is more advanced and can probably already do most of the level 3 skills. She might have a few opportunities to practice new skills, but I don't expect she'll have too many. I imagine she is bored (she was last season)and I do feel bad for her, but they moved from a less competitive gym and program specifically to this gym because they felt it was better for her long term. The girls do a lot of conditioning and drills and I know that even the advanced girl has become a much stronger gymnast than she was at the beginning of the year.

I believe my dd's gym is pretty successful in both the compulsory and optional levels. They currently have 9 level 10 gymnasts, including 2 that have scholarships for D1 schools in the fall.

 

[gymdog]

My specific daughter and her skills aside, I guess I'm trying to ascertain if the strategy my gym has thus far followed, which is to only train the level you will compete in off-season, and then drill routines for 6 months, is an appropriate strategy for a gymnast who, say, aspires to college gym (I do realize odds against that, just using as a gauge)?

I know no one can give a 100% right answer. I am just looking for opinions on how all you experts think it should be done, and if anything seems 'off' at all. I like many things about our gym, and respect the coaches as professionals and people. I am just not sure of if the gym's goals and philosophies match what is ideal for my daughter. I am trying to figure that out. Thanks again.
Thank you again!

The only way we could possibly tell doesn't really have anything to do with what you've posted. We would have to know if your gym has level 10s and graduating seniors. Nothing so far is inconsistent with the path many successful gyms take but like coachp said, it's pretty difficult to say just based on the info you've provided. I do think it's unlikely from the information given that your interpretation that she could successfully compete level 5 is true, but anything is possible so there's not a lot we could say for sure just from what a parent posts. The only way to know would be to have her evaluated by other coaches.

 

[wallflower]

I think the situation sounds pretty typical. At least in my experience. My kiddo has always been in a situation where she finished one level and then started training for the next, never ahead, even if she was capable of doing more. Meanwhile she did a lot of conditioning and things that have made it easy for her to get skills. It seems like by the time she starts training the skill she gets it quickly. Maybe because they were preparing her physically in ways I didn't understand.

Meanwhile she had old teammates that would be training skills far above their level. Like I can't do a proper cast handstand or Giants but I'm working on my double back. At the time I felt like man my DD could probably do that if she was only given the chance. Instead she is holding a handstand and pressing all day, more Giants when it seems like she could do more. But guess whose scenario has worked out better? Definitely my DD. Her friends have struggled. Most have quit when they couldn't move beyond level 7ish.

I read a lot of stuff about how the other girls are "catching up" and then the girls in

 

[Clover]

Your gym's approach - plenty of conditioning but only training the level that will be competed is similar to DD's for compulsories. Once you get to optionals there is constant "uptraining". We are a successful gym using this strategy (JO National champions, D1 college athletes, and some recent elites). I say if you are otherwise satisfied with this gym then I don't see any issues.

 

[gymdilettante]

That's tough. Assuming you aren't going to move her, and that it seems unlikely that she would be permanently moved to L5 group, the question is what are some ways she could get to train some L5 skills without officially changing groups? In terms of solutions that don't require speaking with thecoaches, what about private lessons and/or open gym (in the latter case, obviously only practicing skills that are safe for her not completely new ones)? Or maybe even an advanced tumbling class once a week. Or if you are willing to talk to the coaches it seems like asking to train with the L5 group once a week might be a good compromise. ..they might also have other suggestions. You won't seem like a cgm if you approach the situation in a collaborative way, reiterate that you aren't asking jump her a level and remain pleasant regardless of the response. If they treat you like a cgm over a pleasant reasonable conversation like that, then there are other issues. ...

 

[Sasha]

These are great examples, thanks everyone for contributing. It's reassuring to hear some accounts that there may not be as much 'uptraining' in every successful program as I seem to be always hearing about on here. That focusing on basics is still a good process at this stage, and I can perhaps still afford to give that process some time.

As a parent, it's so difficult to hear accounts of other successful gymnast's paths and plans, how 'getting to optionals quickly' is better than wasting too much time in compulsories, many accounts how uptraining is 'so important', how a gymnast needs to be a certain level by a certain age to be considered for any college recruiting in the future, etc., and so one comes to perhaps expect more of these things in one's own gym. When anything seems different than that, up pop questions of whether the gym is going to ft a gymnast's needs long term.

Because our gym isn't old enough to have home-grown L9/10 yet, I'm looking at other factors to try and gauge the program. Guess this one is hard to debate, sorry for perhaps too much detail or asking in the wrong way in my attempt to set up the question. I realize no one on here can really know my DD's skills or potential from a parent's description.

I didn't even know there was a 'team' when my DD started! I had no expectations. I happily promoted Xcel to her, but her dreams are higher (college), and she has thus far stepped up to each plate offered to her. So here I am now in a position of making she 'has her best shot' even if odds are against all gymnasts anyway, and I'm often lost and confused in the process. The fear here, at the end of the day, same as I think many other parents who come here seeking perspective, is that she will be taking her time, doing well in her program at its pace through compulsories and early optionals, giving up the rest of her life for gym because it's her passion, then get to train upper optionals in high school, past puberty, when she's bigger and harder to spot, and look around and see the same-age kids that she was competitive with at L3-5 in other gyms already in their second/third year of upper optionals and much better placed to be considered for colleges. And then I'll kick myself for not doing more to figure things out when she was a compulsory. Obviously, getting to upper optionals is a huge accomplishment in itself, and I don't expect her to achieve any of these goals. I will not be upset if she quits tomorrow. It will have been worth it. I simply want to make sure the right training is available to her in the even slightly probable event that she continues to excel. The rest is up to her of course. Thanks for everyone's patience as I try to articulate, and all the sincere suggestions shared!!

 

[gymdog]

These are great examples, thanks everyone for contributing. It's reassuring to hear some accounts that there may not be as much 'uptraining' in every successful program as I seem to be always hearing about on here. That focusing on basics is still a good process at this stage, and I can perhaps still afford to give that process some time.

As a parent, it's so difficult to hear accounts of other successful gymnast's paths and plans, how 'getting to optionals quickly' is better than wasting too much time in compulsories, many accounts how uptraining is 'so important', how a gymnast needs to be a certain level by a certain age to be considered for any college recruiting in the future, etc., and so one comes to perhaps expect more of these things in one's own gym. When anything seems different than that, up pop questions of whether the gym is going to ft a gymnast's needs long term.

Because our gym isn't old enough to have home-grown L9/10 yet, I'm looking at other factors to try and gauge the program. Guess this one is hard to debate, sorry for perhaps too much detail or asking in the wrong way in my attempt to set up the question. I realize no one on here can really know my DD's skills or potential from a parent's description.

I didn't even know there was a 'team' when my DD started! I had no expectations. I happily promoted Xcel to her, but her dreams are higher (college), and she has thus far stepped up to each plate offered to her. So here I am now in a position of making she 'has her best shot' even if odds are against all gymnasts anyway, and I'm often lost and confused in the process. The fear here, at the end of the day, same as I think many other parents who come here seeking perspective, is that she will be taking her time, doing well in her program at its pace through compulsories and early optionals, giving up the rest of her life for gym because it's her passion, then get to train upper optionals in high school, past puberty, when she's bigger and harder to spot, and look around and see the same-age kids that she was competitive with at L3-5 in other gyms already in their second/third year of upper optionals and much better placed to be considered for colleges. And then I'll kick myself for not doing more to figure things out when she was a compulsory. Obviously, getting to upper optionals is a huge accomplishment in itself, and I don't expect her to achieve any of these goals. I will not be upset if she quits tomorrow. It will have been worth it. I simply want to make sure the right training is available to her in the even slightly probable event that she continues to excel. The rest is up to her of course. Thanks for everyone's patience as I try to articulate, and all the sincere suggestions shared!!

Well have the head coaches coached level 9/10/elite before? For example many coaches move here from another country and nay have never coached American level 10 before, but they have taught those

 

[gymdog]

Have the head coaches coached level 9/10/elite before? For example many coaches move from another country and have never taught American level 10 before but have taught those skills, that's the same thing.

My experience is your fears are not realistic unless you're at a gym that doesn't do conditioning and basics. Without those, no matter what level they put her on as a 7-12 year old or what skills they throw her through will matter when she's 15. Conversely, with proper conditioning and basics (gymnastics motor patterns) she will reach her potential in gymnastics.

 

[Sasha]

That's tough. Assuming you aren't going to move her, and that it seems unlikely that she would be permanently moved to L5 group, the question is what are some ways she could get to train some L5 skills without officially changing groups? In terms of solutions that don't require speaking with thecoaches, what about private lessons and/or open gym (in the latter case, obviously only practicing skills that are safe for her not completely new ones)? Or maybe even an advanced tumbling class once a week. Or if you are willing to talk to the coaches it seems like asking to train with the L5 group once a week might be a good compromise. ..they might also have other suggestions. You won't seem like a cgm if you approach the situation in a collaborative way, reiterate that you aren't asking jump her a level and remain pleasant regardless of the response. If they treat you like a cgm over a pleasant reasonable conversation like that, then there are other issues. ...

Thanks for those suggestions, gymdilettante. No open gym available, but private lessons may be one thing I consider for her (if I can find a slot! They seem to be all taken by the top talent in level 5/6). I will definitely be pleasant if I decide I should ask coach anything. All they ever say is "She's doing great", but then again, that's what they seem to say to every parent who ever asks anything unless there is truly an issue. Heard it many times. So I take it was a grain of salt I guess. In the time she's been there, at no point have coaches reached out to me to talk any future plans, which I guess is fine and par for the course in this sport. I just want to be prepared so I know what to ask. Thanks for the suggestions!

Well have the head coaches coached level 9/10/elite before? For example many coaches move here from another country and nay have never coached American level 10 before, but they have taught those

They have coached our transplant 9s and one 10 that we had. I don't know what they might have done at previous gyms. They are US. There are only 2 optional coaches, but hopefully that will increase as the big compulsory program kids mature into optionals. The compulsory coaches seem pretty good, and our gym is becoming more competitive score-wise in compulsories against the 'power' gyms, in part because of more repeaters, though, along with the long routine-only season, I'm sure. However, those power gyms have more kids at the top that are advancing faster, do TOPs, etc, while our top L3 and L4 kids (non repeaters, my kid being one of them) are not on any fast track. Not sure what to read into that. Thanks for asking!

 

[Mrs. Puma]

which typically means that the parent is way to involved.

I have been meaning to ask this, and you seem like a good one to ask (sorry if this is high jacking the thread). What does a coach consider "too involved" ? I'm quite sure parents trying to coach and/or telling the coach what to do must drive you guys nuts! For me personally, I am fully aware that no matter how much I research or talk to people I will NEVER have even the greenest of coach's expertise. BUT, I do want to be informed. Every parent wants what is best for their child, but sometimes it's hard to know what IS best. I feel like I err on the side of "trust in the coaches", but then it seems like changing gyms is pretty common is this world? I'm pretty new to all this so I definately do NOT want to be "CGM", but I also (even selfishly from a sports fan perspective) don't want to sit back and be naive about everything. Thanks in advance!

 

[gymgal]

Sasha, Would this be an issue if she had not trained with the L4's last year? Would she be going into this year with roughly the same skills as the rest of the new L4? Perhaps the HC did it last year to see her potential, but after making the choice to place her in L3 last year, they want to make sure to keep her with her current group. Is it sort of a waste of a year in terms of learning new skills? yes. But if your gym likes to keep girls together as a team, it will even her out with her group for future years. I wouldn't be happy about this in the short term but if your belive it is a good gym for your dd, then it is the long term you need to focus on.

as i have posted before, there is no such thing as up training. the person that coined this word should be tarred and feathered and have duct tape put over their mouth. that's all.

Every gym uses (or should use) sequential training. Not every gym trains skills above those the gymnasts need for that season. There is a big difference in training styles between gyms that only train current level skills and those that train 1-2+ levels above the competitive level. So "uptraining" is simply a term used to differentiate between the different types of training philosophies. It may not be completely accurate but it works well enough.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I have been meaning to ask this, and you seem like a good one to ask (sorry if this is high jacking the thread). What does a coach consider "too involved" ? I'm quite sure parents trying to coach and/or telling the coach what to do must drive you guys nuts! For me personally, I am fully aware that no matter how much I research or talk to people I will NEVER have even the greenest of coach's expertise. BUT, I do want to be informed. Every parent wants what is best for their child, but sometimes it's hard to know what IS best. I feel like I err on the side of "trust in the coaches", but then it seems like changing gyms is pretty common is this world? I'm pretty new to all this so I definately do NOT want to be "CGM", but I also (even selfishly from a sports fan perspective) don't want to sit back and be naive about everything. Thanks in advance!

Being in contact with the coach is never an issue for me, unless it just gets crazy. So when I talk about being too involved I am referring to the parent child interaction. Which in my opinion can be very counter productive when its too much, even if the parent is not coaching etc... Kids will progress faster and have less fear issues (balking) when parental presence is less. It goes back to anxiety and what fuels it, which I have expressed my beliefs on another thread recently. For whatever that is worth.

 

[skschlag]

Sasha, Would this be an issue if she had not trained with the L4's last year? Would she be going into this year with roughly the same skills as the rest of the new L4? Perhaps the HC did it last year to see her potential, but after making the choice to place her in L3 last year, they want to make sure to keep her with her current group. Is it sort of a waste of a year in terms of learning new skills? yes. But if your gym likes to keep girls together as a team, it will even her out with her group for future years. I wouldn't be happy about this in the short term but if your belive it is a good gym for your dd, then it is the long term you need to focus on.


Every gym uses (or should use) sequential training. Not every gym trains skills above those the gymnasts need for that season. There is a big difference in training styles between gyms that only train current level skills and those that train 1-2+ levels above the competitive level. So "uptraining" is simply a term used to differentiate between the different types of training philosophies. It may not be completely accurate but it works well enough.

I think, though, if you are doing true sequential training, there is never a lull. You don't stop to just work routines repetitively. The gymnast keeps moving along their sequential path, no matter waht skills are required at a level.

 

[LJL07]

Sasha,
I completely understand where you are coming from. I don't think it's unreasonable to have these questions/concerns. I don't hear you saying that you think she should skip level 4 next season--just that you want her to continue making progress. I think my dd is kind of in the same situation but a year behind your DD's in that compared to her same level teammates, she is pretty ahead skill wise, so why not let her work on kip drills instead of mill circles all day long?? Is practice time an issue? I know at our gym they spend the majority of practice time drilling the compulsory skills for 3 so they will score well at the meets. There just isn't much time left over for anything else. Dunno makes a good point about spending more time on fundamentals. I would love to see our gym spend time on just handstands, for example, but the focus is on the compulsory levels. Gymdog basically says what our gym told us and another parent was the rationale for having the girls stay down a level. Our team director flat out said that the gym doesn't have resources (time, space, coaching staff) to do the type of training that will move kids quickly who have that potential. Don't know if that is the case at your gym. Similarly, we have one level 9, but no level 8's or 10's. I really have nothing to offer other than commiseration.