Art vs. Sport

[Geoffrey Taucer]

It seems like I'm constantly hearing older coaches lamenting the lack of artistry in modern gymnastics, pining for the days of old when it really was "artistic gymnastics."

But is a truely effective blend of art and sport actually possible?

My opinion: no.

Art is inherently subjective. Art by its very nature can have different meanings to different observers. Art by its very nature is open to interpretation. There can be no definitive objective evaluation of art. This is inherent in the very nature of art.

Sport is inherently objective. There are winners and there are losers. Sport by its very nature must have an objective means of evaluation. The superior competitor is determined by means that can be concretely measured. This is inherent in the nature of competitive sport.

So what does this mean for gymnastics? It seems to me that our sport has reached a crossroads, and we must collectively decide whether we want gymnastics to continue down the road of artistry or of sport.

It seems to me that men's gymnastics has already made the choice to continue as a sport rather than as an art form. On the men's side, artistry is not in any way evaluated, resulting in routines that seek only to maximize start values while minimizing deductions.

But women's gymnastics still seems to be stuck in limbo, trying to be two inherently contradictory things at once. The result is a system in which scores are, in my opinion, entirely too subjective to be used to determine a supposedly-objective "winner." Politics and personal bias are given way to much room to affect the outcome of the competition. How a floor routine is evaluated can depend on things like the judges' taste in music, and other such things which should be completely irrelevant but aren't. Between "artistry," "rythm and tempo," and "dynamics," the judges have a full 7 tenths that they can basically give or deduct based entirely on whether they feel like it. There is no objectively defined criteria for these things.

Neither art nor sport is inherently a better choice; pursuing artistry gives us cirque du soleil and the like. Pursuing sport gives us the olympics. But I believe that gymnastics as a sport cannot reasonably be expected to straddle this divide indefinitely; attempting to straddle the divide gives us a nonstop stream of questionable judging (and therefore questionable results), which is beneficial neither to the interest of artistry nor to the interest of sport.

Thoughts?

EDIT: as a side note: this is why I believe cheerleading should not be considered a sport, but rather a performance art. I think the art of cheerleading would benefit greatly if coaches and participants approached it as an art form rather than as a competitive sport.

 

[MdGymMom01]

Great topic GT!! It's interesting that you mention cheerleading and whether it should be a sport or not. Having come from the "All-Star Cheerleading" circuit (and it IS MUCH different than sideline cheerleading that we know of from high school football and basketball games), I have many friends who get very upset when "cheerleading is NOT a sport" debates come up. I think the recent ruling from the Quinnipiac Univ case got a lot of people up in arms and pissed off. Here is that link if you are not familiar with the case:

Cheerleading is not a sport, rules judge: Quinnipiac University can't swap volleyball for pom-poms

This is a really difficult debate, but IMHO, I would lean more towards All Star Cheerleading being a sport. I say this because their main purpose is to compete. They train for the sole purpose of going to 12 or so competitions in a season and competing for National, Divisional and World titles. Their routines are very athletic, more so than artistic, and they are judged on deductions like in gymnastics. I would love to hear other peoples opinions on this. I don't have too much time right now so I can't write as much as I want.

 

[gymnastbeth]

About the cheerleading: I would consider competitive cheer a sport, but highschool cheer? Gimme a break. Cheering on other athletes doesn't make you one!

 

[bribri514]

About the cheerleading: I would consider competitive cheer a sport, but highschool cheer? Gimme a break. Cheering on other athletes doesn't make you one!

I don't want to turn this away from the original debate, but first I want to say it really depends. I did high school cheerleading in addition to gymnastics. Yeah we were at pep rallies and football games, but we also had our own competitions. We practiced 5, sometimes 6 days a week, made our own choreography, did stunt work and tumbling, etc. In my opinion it wasn't as hard as gymnastics (at least going up to level 10), but it definitely was athletic. In response to MdGymMommy (we've had this conversation before on FB I think ) I can see why it would benefit women for it to not be "classified" as a sport. Some cheerleading programs are definitely sports, some are more just pom pom waiving. If it's classified as a sport overall it affects other womens sports under title 9. Barely any high schools or colleges have gymnastics programs (in comparison to other sports) and gym and other womens sports need all they can get in my opinion!

Tying it back to GT's original point. I'm not sure if WAG should have to choose between the two. My personal gym style and taste leans towards power house tumbling and that side of spectrum. But, I really really appreciate the graceful artistic side. It's like figure skating. They have a lot of the same controversy that WAG does (my sister did it for a while) It's an olympic sport, definitely athletic. I don't think it won't be in the Winter Olympics anytime soon. But at the same time, I don't think figure skating will have to choose between artistic and graceful vs. being an actual sport.

I don't want to see WAG be solely "objective" and go the way MAG is going. But at the same time I don't want to see WAG not be in the Olympics and suddenly be something you do at the Performing Arts Center and not an athletic program if that makes sense.

It's a good thing to think about, but yeah I think WAG can stay in the middle.

 

[sportyspice]

In comparing cheerleading to WAG, would I be correct in suggesting that subjective scoring is much more prevalent in cheerleading and contributing less than 10% of overall score in WAG? IMHO this would be one of the larger stumbling blocks in accepting cheerleading as a sport, so much depends on appearance i.e. uniforms and makeup, whereas I doubt a splashy leotard or makeup would sway a WAG judge.

I tend to define artistry as that which makes the audience appreciate the beauty of a routine. "Artistry" in WAG is shown more often by positioning of arms, fingers, toes in lower levels and then grace and movement in higher levels- these aspects seem more actively subjective (meaning something that one has to work harder to control) than whether a cheerleader is smiling or wearing makeup in a routine.

Going back to GTs original point, I would much rather see a return to a more artistic bend in both MAG and WAG, and I think the current trend towards technical evaluations is a natural evolution of the sport - it could possibly backlash to the artistic side when they realise sporting audiences appreciate beauty too?

 

[MdGymMom01]

I think that gymnastics can be both artistic and athletic (as in a sport). Take vault and bars for instance. These two events require a lot of power, strength and athleticism as opposed to grace and artistic expression. However, beam and floor are two events where I think the artistic aspect really adds to the overall impression of these events. I think the gymnasts that really love floor as their favorite events are the girls that have the personality and artistic expression that can really "sell" the floor routine. They love performing and floor is the event to really showcase your personality and "perform" for the audience and judges.

I think with the difficulty of a lot of the gymnastics skills and requirements on each event, there sometimes isn't enough time in the routine to add the "embellishments" and bits of "flare" that I think is what is so enjoyable about the sport. The athletic tricks and skills are great but some of the balance moves and holds on beam are breath-taking. A lot of people like gymnastics because it is just plain "fun" to watch.

So, I do think that gymnastics can be a combination of art and sport.

 

[gymmomntc2e6]

I don't think it is possible to take the 'people' element out of gymnastics, at least WAG. I mean people just have different styles that they like. I happen to enjoy both and would be a horrible judge

I loved watching Shawn Johfnson tumble and power through a routine, but I just as much enjoy a graceful and beautiful floor or beam routine. They are both WOW, just two different kinds of WOW. I always enjoyed Shawn more than Nastia because to me Shawn always looked like she was having fun, Nastia - not so much. But Nastia was beautiful to watch, don't get me wrong.

I do not feel that making WAG all technical like MAG would work for women's gymnastics. Don't see any way to keep it beautiful and thrilling and make it more objective. Everyone knows what it is going into it.

 

[triptwister]

Any sport is capable of artistry. The audience waits to be entertained by it. When those who perform deliver the sublime it transcends their performance. It is greater than the sum of its parts. When artistry happens It is more than a job well done or standing on the podium. Artistry is more than excellence and more than perfection and more than a measure. Artistry does not fashion itself out of difficulty or ease. The self portrait of artistry is painted on a canvas of senses where it comes alive.

The old timers talk about artistry because they remember how it made them feel the times they were privy to it. They've been around long enough to have crossed its elusive path. It is unforgettable. Its what you remember when the dust of experience clears. If the sport of gymnastics means higher, farther, faster, and more then it becomes a predictable expectation. But art can make things that are simple seem extraordinary and things that should be beyond our imagination suddenly become plausible.

There will always be someone to prove that sport follows after artistry. And when you see it, you will never forget it.

 

[AlexsGymmyMom]

Any sport is capable of artistry. The audience waits to be entertained by it. When those who perform deliver the sublime it transcends their performance. It is greater than the sum of its parts. When artistry happens It is more than a job well done or standing on the podium. Artistry is more than excellence and more than perfection and more than a measure. Artistry does not fashion itself out of difficulty or ease. The self portrait of artistry is painted on a canvas of senses where it comes alive.

The old timers talk about artistry because they remember how it made them feel the times they were privy to it. They've been around long enough to have crossed its elusive path. It is unforgettable. Its what you remember when the dust of experience clears. If the sport of gymnastics means higher, farther, faster, and more then it becomes a predictable expectation. But art can make things that are simple seem extraordinary and things that should be beyond our imagination suddenly become plausible.

There will always be someone to prove that sport follows after artistry. And when you see it, you will never forget it.

I could not have said it better! Wonderful post! Thanks

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Any sport is capable of artistry. The audience waits to be entertained by it. When those who perform deliver the sublime it transcends their performance. It is greater than the sum of its parts. When artistry happens It is more than a job well done or standing on the podium. Artistry is more than excellence and more than perfection and more than a measure. Artistry does not fashion itself out of difficulty or ease. The self portrait of artistry is painted on a canvas of senses where it comes alive.

The old timers talk about artistry because they remember how it made them feel the times they were privy to it. They've been around long enough to have crossed its elusive path. It is unforgettable. Its what you remember when the dust of experience clears. If the sport of gymnastics means higher, farther, faster, and more then it becomes a predictable expectation. But art can make things that are simple seem extraordinary and things that should be beyond our imagination suddenly become plausible.

There will always be someone to prove that sport follows after artistry. And when you see it, you will never forget it.

wow! profound!! you dat same guy?

 

[Bobby]

My reaction to the title was to favour a comination. But GT's argument was very persuasive too.
GT, don't suppose you could apply the theory to figure skating for me so I can figure out if I still agree with you??

 

[Geoffrey Taucer]

My reaction to the title was to favour a comination. But GT's argument was very persuasive too.
GT, don't suppose you could apply the theory to figure skating for me so I can figure out if I still agree with you??

From what little I know, I'm inclined to say it seems more like art than sport, but I know almost nothing about how it's judged, so I can't really give much of an answer there.