WAG Ballet vs.Gymnastics Leaps/Split Jumps

[Short Balding Guy]

Addition: I have asked the last 2 years that our ballet instructor work our athletes in the dance room, but also work the same curriculum on the FX carpet. This split time has really paid of on having the skills more "gymnastics ready." One example is turns and the difference of starting angular momentum and controlling it on carpet vs hard fx.

Late thought. Done now. SBG-

 

[mommyof1]

Wouldn't the lack of spotting make it harder to successfully complete turns in gymnastics, especially on beam? How can you land in the right place if you don't know where you are?

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Mommyof1: Our athletes learn spotting. It helps us with timing.

SBG -

 

[Muddlethru]

Wouldn't the lack of spotting make it harder to successfully complete turns in gymnastics, especially on beam? How can you land in the right place if you don't know where you are?

Gymnastics turns will of course spot the END of the turn (or where they want to end) never in between which is the major difference. That is why I say they really spin instead of turn. That is my observation. I am speaking from a dance background and may have neglected to state the obvious. My goal was to point out the differences and not the similarities because it is the difference that makes switching problematic not the similarities. As such, spotting is what I believe gets a dancer the multiple turns whereas spotting like a dancer will inhibit a multiple turn for a gymnast. Simply, you cannot do a turn on the carpeted floor using the same techniques used in dance and vice a versa. I think where ballet or dance helps gymnasts the most is they learn their center of gravity. Pulling up is so important and finding your center is so helpful all around. I too like that they become more aware of their arms, point their toes, straighten their legs. They become more aware of the lines they make in space and body positioning.

An example the balding guy brings up is fouetté en tourmant. I have yet to see a gymnast perform this. Very little force is required in between turns. A gymnast would need a lot more force to generate this turn. Watch gymnasts prepare even for a single turn and compare it to that of a dancer. There is a massive difference to my eyes anyway.

 

[Muddlethru]

I was merely trying to respond to

Mommyof1: Our athletes learn spotting. It helps us with timing.

SBG -

SBG, how do you spot your multiple turns, not singles? And are you practicing them on gymnastics floor or wood floors? Multiple turns in gymnastics are a lot faster than in dance. How does that help with timing? I am just curious. Educate me.

 

[Short Balding Guy]

4; How: I work to have the athlete turn the head to spot the finish. This takes lots of practise in lower levels. We do it starting in 1/2 turns. This provides us a reference for the inside shoulder and to decrease angular momentum with the outside shoulder. It is harder to cease rotation than start. On carpet lots more tactics to slow rotation - one is spreading of the support foot base another example is a change of complimentary shapes (arms/legs). You can be high relieve and tight, but with a "looser" turn base. On spotting with the head, the spot is different in a 1 1/2 from a 2/1 or 3/1. The athlete must anticipate more with the faster turning skills. Timing, technique are musts for clean turns. On beam for a 1 1/2 we spot a 1/1 and look for the remaining half. It allows the athlete to time the stop with the successful rotation. Granted in the rare situation of a 2/1 on BB the athlete has already worked out very successful technique to find and anticipate the finish. On FX I see our athletes spot their 2/1's each day. In this way I do teach looking (spotting) were they wish to stop.
Different than dance: Not a big difference, just tactics for surface and desired outcome in my eyes. I too teach "pulling up", rather word it pressing up.
Fouetté en tourmant: I have this on FX. My example of linked turns (I believe this is the one questioned if it has happened or could be done) is strong side 2/1 and then an other side 1/1.
Turns faster: ?? Tactics for different surfaces. The fundamentals are very similar. (It does remind me: A fast bad technique turn is still bad in performance. )

I hope this answers your direct query. SBG -

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Timed out while editing: Here is my edit....apologies to readers.

Fouetté en tourmant: My example of linked turns (I believe this is the one questioned if it has happened or could be done) is strong side 2/1 and then an other side 1/1. This is not as you have defined it. An example is provided here for readers, . An inward and outward turn (dedans/dehor) are different but not hugely different performed on the FX surface. As to whipped turns (as you asked) you stand correct, as of yet I have not seen them performed well.

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Gymnastics turns will of course spot the END of the turn (or where they want to end) never in between which is the major difference. That is why I say they really spin instead of turn.

4: I went back to Biomechanics of Gymnastics and the original hardcover book (published in the late 70's) by Gerald George and have been re-reading to set out turning vs. spinning. http://winninggymnastics.com/dr-george.php I frequently consult these as references. The ballet books that I have in my office do not differentiate between the words. I can confused by the different words (spin and turn) and do not find anything to help me better understand. I have heard our ballet instructor use the word "turn" and not spin to discussion similar to this one. In physics/engineering I was clear of the differences .(Turn - move or cause to move in a circular direction wholly or partly around an axis or point. Spin - A quantum-mechanical phenomenon. )

I do not see a difference. Perhaps I am being overly analytic or pedantic. (That has happened many times before.)

References or resources to assist me?

-SBG -

 

[Raquel]

Either would generally be okay if the turnout was relatively slight. I would think in reality most gymnasts would have a fairly straight foot while doing leaps and jumps.

Many thanks again!

 

[Muddlethru]

SBG, your response to my query was not what I was looking for. My query is more in reference to multiple turns. I have not seen anyone do at least two turns and spotted each turn in gymnastics.

As far as turns and spins. This is how I personally differentiate a gymnastics turn to a dance pirouette. Gymnasts do not perform a dance turn. From the preparation of a turn, to the execution of the turn, the lack of spotting, the finish is all different. Even the way they carry the turn is different. The difference may be subtle to many, but it is significant believe it or not. Look at Jordyn Weiber's turn and Aliya Mustafina, they pull in their arms and "speed" turn similar to an ice skater. This would never do in dance. You would never see dancers pull their arms in tight position and not spot. You would also never see dancers prepare for a turn like they were going to war. I relate a gymnastics turn to a spin because in my opinion that is what they do. I am not going by any dictionary. Turns are dance elements and gymnasts do not perform it the way dancers have to do it. It is a gymnastics interpretation\adaptation of a turn. A gymnast would have to be retrained to perform a dance turn properly.

I can understand why maybe it is hard to tell the difference when one does not have an extensive dance background. I don't have much of a gymnastics background and as such, I cannot tell the difference between a pirouette on bars and a blind. My daughter gets annoyed when I cannot tell the difference. The only way I can tell now is when she does a full turn or half a turn while doing a giant, I know she is doing a blind full or half and when it is out of a cast to handstand, she is doing a pirouette. So, maybe that is why many cannot tell the difference. But I have a masters in dance, am studio trained also for decades, taught all dance forms (ballet, modern, jazz, lyrical, contemporary) except hip hop and tap. So my craft and the proper execution is important and quite visible to me. Please don't misconstrue the previous statement as a brag. It is merely to point out why I may be a little too passionate about the difference.

My point in responding to this thread was to state that it is understandable that gymnasts may have trouble doing turns in dance and vice versa and that it is not uncommon because the turns are in my opinion vastly different. Many say it is similar. We can just agree to disagree. ;-)

 

[Muddlethru]

One last thing, in addition to the above, the surface where the turns are executed are also vastly different and the shoes or lack thereof also adds to the difference. One would have to make significant modifications on the preparation and execution of turns on this two elements alone.

 

[eucoach]

I teach my gymnasts to spot their turns. From my experience it makes a huge difference in their ability to finish multiple turns. On floor I make them focus on a point at eye level, on beam I make them focus on the end of the beam. I don't know if this is what makes the difference, but beam turns do not usually give them problems and I can get them up to consistent triple turns on floor rather quickly. It also facilitates learning turns with leg at horizontal or in a split position.

For split leaps I have the little ones start out with straight-legged split leaps, I move to the developpé technique as soon as they can get to an about 135° leap with very good form. It's just a lot easier to reach a full split by using this technique. I haven't had any problems with bent legs on switch leaps our tour jetés. We do tons of line and bar drills with lots of variations though.

I focus on turnout in their splits and check if they turn their heels inwards on leg swings. Usually, if they focus on that, their hips stay square automatically.

 

[Elin]

Hey, I found a gymnast that's actually spotting (quad turn)!

07:18

But I have to agree on it being very unusual, seeing gymnasts spot in pirouettes. I don't understand how they can keep their balance without spotting though, I always try to spot and if I don't, either I don't make it all way round or I lose my balance.

But apparently it's possible to do even quintuple turns without spotting, just look at this!

 

[Muddlethru]

Hey, I found a gymnast that's actually spotting (quad turn)!

07:18

But I have to agree on it being very unusual, seeing gymnasts spot in pirouettes. I don't understand how they can keep their balance without spotting though, I always try to spot and if I don't, either I don't make it all way round or I lose my balance.

But apparently it's possible to do even quintuple turns without spotting, just look at this!

Elin, the gymnast you claim is spotting a quad turn is NOT spotting her turns the least. I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is precisely what I've been saying all along. Many say the turns in gymnastics and dance is the same because they truly cannot and do not know the difference. I too believe that those who think they are teaching their gymnasts to spot, is not truly teaching their gymnast to spot. To spot a turn, the head looks at a 'spot' for as long as they can while the rest of the body continues to turn. When it is no longer possible for the head to keep looking at the spot, it snaps quickly around to look at the spot again. The gymnast's head and shoulders in your video stay aligned the entire time. SHE IS NOT SPOTTING ANYMORE THAN THE GIRL DOING A QUAD ON BEAM. You do not see her head snap. See video below of a dancer. Notice how you barely see the have of her head. Her head snaps forward very quickly.

 

[Elin]

Elin, the gymnast you claim is spotting a quad turn is NOT spotting her turns the least. I hate to beat a dead horse, but this is precisely what I've been saying all along. Many say the turns in gymnastics and dance is the same because they truly cannot and do not know the difference. I too believe that those who think they are teaching their gymnasts to spot, is not truly teaching their gymnast to spot. To spot a turn, the head looks at a 'spot' for as long as they can while the rest of the body continues to turn. When it is no longer possible for the head to keep looking at the spot, it snaps quickly around to look at the spot again. The gymnast's head and shoulders in your video stay aligned the entire time. SHE IS NOT SPOTTING ANYMORE THAN THE GIRL DOING A QUAD ON BEAM. You do not see her head snap. See video below of a dancer. Notice how you barely see the have of her head. Her head snaps forward very quickly.

I see your point and I agree that dance turns and gymnastics turns is a lot different. Dance turns tend to be more graceful whereas gymnastics turns are more powerful (and for a logical reasons - no shoes, the floor mat etc). But I still think it looks like (some) artistic gymnasts spot. Maybe not as clear as in dance turns, but they still have to know where they are, right? If you just pulled and didn't have any focus at all, at least I would not have a clue where I was going or how many turns I had done.

And as for my own spotting - I'm not an artistic gymnast (have not been since I was 7) but a teamgym gymnast. We don't do our "floor routine" (no tumbling, that is a separate event) on a spring floor, hence I guess we don't have to use as much power as artistic gymnasts. We can make the turns slower and therefore have time to spot properly.
Because this is a proper spotting even in dance terms, right?

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Today I was reminded of the thoughts and opinions expressed on this thread.

I am working up lesson plans for USA G JO Teams for March'14 and was reminded by my computer notes to included drill work, including spotting work, for 1/1 turns. (March our Optionals(L6-10) are pre-state/regions/Nationals & our L3-5's are upgrade and physical prep time.)

The material reference I have for staff is the Tammy Biggs, Gymnastics Minute vid below;


Concise and clean presentation reminding of excellent technique for BB turns.

Best, SBG -

 

[Muddlethru]

Today I was reminded of the thoughts and opinions expressed on this thread.

I am working up lesson plans for USA G JO Teams for March'14 and was reminded by my computer notes to included drill work, including spotting work, for 1/1 turns. (March our Optionals(L6-10) are pre-state/regions/Nationals & our L3-5's are upgrade and physical prep time.)

The material reference I have for staff is the Tammy Biggs, Gymnastics Minute vid below;


Concise and clean presentation reminding of excellent technique for BB turns.

Best, SBG -

Here is another clear difference between spotting in dance and gymnastics. Gymnastics may "spot" their turns, but it is still vastly different from dance. You never spot a single turn in dance twice. I thought single turns in dance and gymnastics on beam were somewhat closer. Thanks to your post, it is clear they are even more different than I thought. I did indicate in one of my posts above that gymnasts do spot (however different than in dance) on single turns in beam. This is what Tammy Biggs is teaching in this drill, a single turn on beam. And just for the record, as different as single turns are, multiple turns are even more different.

SBG, are you trying to prove me wrong or just adding useful information? Either way, this video is a good drill for turns on beam.

 

[Short Balding Guy]

Just info.

I have been thinking of dance and artistry of late being it is midway thru our USAG L6-10 season.

SBG-