Parents College recruiting process...part of the problem?

[justanothergymmom]

First, I think you are imputing things I did not say, such as suggesting all or most college athletes are exploited or abused which I did not say nor do I think that is the case. And the Nassar abuse is only one part of the USAG scandal or am I missing something about UofM and also a couple of former Penn coaches? As far as a history of exploitation...why is there an NCAA and why does it have strict participation and recruiting rules and academic standards? Just cause? It is to try to protect athletes from exploitation.

Overall, I am questioning a cultural aspect in very competitive sports that pushes parents to the sidelines that IMO is epidemic in the sport of gymnastics and in this thread I wondered if college recruitment traditions are also part of the issue. I not here to convince everyone there is reason for alarm. If you disagree there are any problems, no worries.

Wait, WHAT?!?! U of M and Penn??? Do you mean Michigan State and Penn State???

 

[gasrgoose]

One of my children is a NCAA athlete (actually 2018 national champions and a well respected program) and their coaches don't want parent involvement and don't communicate with parents. This is the way college athletics is handled because the athletes are adults. So it seems reasonable that they would prefer direct contact with prospective athletes. It is assumed that a 12-16 year old is not having communication without parental knowledge since they generally don't live on their own at that age. There are plenty of examples in this thread of how good parents handled early recruiting and they seem perfectly happy.

USAG and club gym is a different issue. There is not a system that could push me to the sidelines in regards to the safety and well being of my children. I'm not sure what parents are thinking that allow that culture to exist. It does not exist at our gym and we have elite gymnasts, NCAA gymnasts, JO National champions, etc, etc

But it is the parents in both situations who allow it to exist or not exist.

 

[gasrgoose]

For clarification, parents allow these cultures to exist or not exist with their children, not the abuse. Unfortunately we can not completely prevent monsters like Nassar from harming people regardless of the culture. There are horrible people who do horrible things and should be punished for their actions.

 

[Deedee]

I agree with this advice but I would add that we must remember that college recruiters and coaches are looking out for themselves and their careers, to think otherwise would be naive.

I deffinatly agree that it’s their job to recruit athletes. But op statement of this

“, they are suggesting kids as young as middle school should be in private, one to one contact with adult coaches they do not know...at all. And that parents whose kids want to compete in college must be very careful to not "overstep their bounds." Um. What? Is there some other way to read this? And am I wrong to think this is insane?”

I wouldn’t say insane but I do think that this post has come from the backlash of the scandals and that u are correct they are just doing their jobs. I think gymnasts should be having one on in contact with recruiters. Builds a lot of self esteem and great communication skills for the future. Adults need to be in the loop and monitor their experience and step in when necessary however we all know that some parents go over the top and try to control the situation. I think this email is just to make parents aware that they want to hear from the kids and not feel like they are being led by their parents. Recruiters have been in the business for years and I’m sure they understand how to appropriately speak and what to expect from a 12 year old. If not then that’s when the parents monitoring comes in and they speak up. But seriously the world isn’t perfect there is bad things in this world which we want to protect our kids from but that doesn’t mean it’s going to happen every time and doesn’t mean we should stop our kids from doing things for themselves.

 

[Madden3]

Do you mean Michigan State and Penn State???

yes that is what I meant. Typing on the run sorry.

 

[Madden3]

So, the part of the email that got me is the warning that parents should basically never talk to prospective coach. It is the chilling effect such warnings can cause that concerns me. I am not talking about something overt (usually.) It is the subtext that concerns me. The subtext of the USAG article I mentioned was similar as parents were never mentioned and social media contact of coaches initiated by gymnast strongly encouraged.

Throughout the discussion of the USAG scandal I have seen some people seem to have the attitude of " there are monsters and we cannot stop them" and "you cannot protect everyone all the time." Frankly this baffles me. You cannot protect your child from a being in a car accident, but you can make sure they learn the importance of wearing a safety belt and of not getting into the car with an impaired driver. Armed with the right knowledge and with vigilance, parents can and do steer their kids away from situations or people that may not be good for them. We do this all the time.

"Monsters" are hard to spot because they almost never look or act like monsters nor do they even believe themselves or their actions to be monstrous. But questionable behavior and attitudes can be spotted if you know what to look for, and part of what you are looking for is the overall attitude of the culture (the micro culture, I am not thinking along political lines or wider culture lines here) you are in. Because predators and other abusers or exploiters will take advantage of or actively create dysfunctional cultures. In other words, recognizing a problematic culture early on is one way to prevent abuse. But we cannot recognize it if we are kept too far out of it.

 

[gasrgoose]

What email are you referencing and who sent it? The parents of college committed athletes I know all communicate with the coaches. The NCAA coaches speak primarily with the athlete but they will also speak with the parents if there are questions or concerns. If they did not, they would likely lose the commits.

 

[Madden3]

What email are you referencing and who sent it? The parents of college committed athletes I know all communicate with the coaches. The NCAA coaches speak primarily with the athlete but they will also speak with the parents if there are questions or concerns. If they did not, they would likely lose the commits.

I covered the email in detail in my OP and then again in a later post. You continue to challenge me for expressing my opinion and I think I have been clear about what facts and concerns my opinion rests upon, but it appears 1) you have not read my posts completely and 2) you are using anecdotal evidence of the stated experiences of "people you know" to counteract what you think I have said. So continuing to respond seems pointless to me. I am not sure why what I am saying is bothering you so much and in fact I cannot even understand where you disagree with me. I can only surmise you think I am saying something I am not.

 

[tomtnt]

I SUSPECT maybe you guys have differing interpretation of that original email you posted? In it, it was stated:

"throughout the recruiting process, the athletes—not their parents—should be contacting college coaches." - I don't take it to mean that parents shouldn't ever talk to coaches. I take it to mean that the initiative should be undertaken by the athlete and not by their tiger moms/dads. After my DD made the initial contact with the coaches, each have asked to speak with parents and see if we had any questions or concerns.

I suspect it does raise a red-flag for the college coaches when they hear no voice other than the parents in the recruitment process. Definitely agree that the parents must be involved in the recruitment process but also agree that the athlete must learn to speak for themselves. These days, most teenagers are more comfortable interacting with instagram and snapchat rather than speaking in person or over the phone and the whole process is a real challenge for them.

I covered the email in detail in my OP and then again in a later post. You continue to challenge me for expressing my opinion and I think I have been clear about what facts and concerns my opinion rests upon, but it appears 1) you have not read my posts completely and 2) you are using anecdotal evidence of the stated experiences of "people you know" to counteract what you think I have said. So continuing to respond seems pointless to me. I am not sure why what I am saying is bothering you so much and in fact I cannot even understand where you disagree with me. I can only surmise you think I am saying something I am not.

 

[Deedee]

I SUSPECT maybe you guys have differing interpretation of that original email you posted? In it, it was stated:

"throughout the recruiting process, the athletes—not their parents—should be contacting college coaches." - I don't take it to mean that parents shouldn't ever talk to coaches. I take it to mean that the initiative should be undertaken by the athlete and not by their tiger moms/dads. After my DD made the initial contact with the coaches, each have asked to speak with parents and see if we had any questions or concerns.

I suspect it does raise a red-flag for the college coaches when they hear no voice other than the parents in the recruitment process. Definitely agree that the parents must be involved in the recruitment process but also agree that the athlete must learn to speak for themselves. These days, most teenagers are more comfortable interacting with instagram and snapchat rather than speaking in person or over the phone and the whole process is a real challenge for them.

This ^^^ one hundred percent! I believe their email is just to tell parents they would prefer to hear from the gymnast and not the parent. Doesn’t mean they don’t want to hear from parents at all. I think op is taking the email very literarily and thinks the email comes across as them not wanting to hear from parents at all. Which I can’t believe would ever be the case and not what i got out of the email op Posted either.

 

[Madden3]

Throughout the recruiting process, the athletes—not their parents—should be contacting college coaches. Coach Taylor White, an NCSA recruiting expert who has coached baseball at the DI level, explains, “I’m not recruiting the parent—I’m recruiting the student-athlete. The second I feel the parent is overstepping their bounds, I start to raise a red flag, especially early on.”

So, again, the e-mail is not the be all and end all and as I stated above, there may be a self serving purpose for this organization that sent the e-mail to me to disempower parents. BUT if you look at the entire quote above, as I originally quoted it and as it appears in the e-mail I received, I am not sure how you can read it except "parents better butt out or risk screwing up their kids chances of doing college sports." If the concern is overprotective parents, this is easily remedied by saying what you mean and not using chilling language that clearly implies that ALL parents need to back off. Obviously no one is saying directly that parents are forbidden from talking to college coaches as that would immediately be suspicious and bizarre. Also, again, I am not implying any particular coach...even the coach quoted here above- has ever done or would ever do anything wrong. I am talking about a culture that normalizes direct and possibly unmonitored contact between adolescents and powerful adults.

 

[GymmomTrish]

That’s pretty unique... I would guess that would be the exception not the rule. And I’m not banking on that happening every year. Usually last minute super six schools are either academic scholarships or walk ons. Congrats to your friends!

We had two 2018 grads at our gym who were offered (and accepted) full athletic scholarships at two different top ranked programs this year. Neither had committed previously. So while I know it isn't the norm, it certainly does happen. It makes sense when you think about how many early offers are made and the rate of attrition in the sport due to injury, burnout, etc between 7th grade and high school graduation not to mention the girls or schools that simply change their minds in that time.

 

[sewgood]

Just to be clear before I go on, I am not looking for advice in how to contact college coaches. I am questioning why college recruiting is being framed this way. This is not the first I have heard this - 2 or 3 years ago, USAG mag published an article on college recruiting of WAG gymnasts that made many of the same cautions and 'helpful suggestions.' That article creeped me out as well because it made absolutely no reference to the parent's role. At the time, that article was brought up and condemned here because the person who wrote it had been accused of abuse. So the convo here was in that direction of outrage over USAG publishing an article by that coach, rather than about the content of the article. Since I had no idea who had written it, my negative impression was entirely about the content.

Does anyone know more about this article, like who wrote it or a more exact time of when it was published?

 

[3rd_time_around]

I actually thought Stanford did not recruit early. I am confused on this one.

Stanford will talk to gymnasts early, but will not announce their commitment until they are seniors. A gymnast from my dd's team is there and this was the process. They make no commitment public until after the grades are where they need to be, the tests are taken, and they are seniors. (I was very close to this athlete, and her mom and I talked quite a bit about it).

 

[3rd_time_around]

First, I think you are imputing things I did not say, such as suggesting all or most college athletes are exploited or abused which I did not say nor do I think that is the case. And the Nassar abuse is only one part of the USAG scandal or am I missing something about UofM and also a couple of former Penn coaches? As far as a history of exploitation...why is there an NCAA and why does it have strict participation and recruiting rules and academic standards? Just cause? It is to try to protect athletes from exploitation.

Overall, I am questioning a cultural aspect in very competitive sports that pushes parents to the sidelines that IMO is epidemic in the sport of gymnastics and in this thread I wondered if college recruitment traditions are also part of the issue. I not here to convince everyone there is reason for alarm. If you disagree there are any problems, no worries.

I think the college wants to deal with the athletes because, let's face it, there are a lot of CGM/Ds out there who would badger coaches, contact them constantly, monopolize the coach's time, etc, etc. They don't want to deal with those parents, they want to get to know the real gymnast, they want to know what to expect when this student is part of their team in terms of academics, commitment to the sport, personality, etc. Parents are still to be involved, of course, but not be the ones contacting the coach, calling, emailing, etc, because the parent is not the athlete and is not the one who will be the college's responsibility for 4 years. I understand the reasons.

 

[3rd_time_around]

I think the college wants to deal with the athletes because, let's face it, there are a lot of CGM/Ds out there who would badger coaches, contact them constantly, monopolize the coach's time, etc, etc. They don't want to deal with those parents, they want to get to know the real gymnast, they want to know what to expect when this student is part of their team in terms of academics, commitment to the sport, personality, etc. Parents are still to be involved, of course, but not be the ones contacting the coach, calling, emailing, etc, because the parent is not the athlete and is not the one who will be the college's responsibility for 4 years. I understand the reasons.

Ok, I tried to delete my comment because I saw it had already been stated, but it was 4 minutes later and by the time clicked "edit," it was 5 minutes. So I'm sorry for being redundant. Carry on.

 

[Madden3]

Does anyone know more about this article, like who wrote it or a more exact time of when it was published?

Yes. The article was written by Jeff Thompson and is in the April/May 2016 issue of USAG gymnastics. It was actually easy to find once I looked. While I read it originally at the time in the hard copy magazine my boys received for being USAG members, here is the link to find past issues: http://www.usagymlegacy.org/library/decade/2010s/

As I mentioned before, I read the article before I had any idea who wrote it or who Jeff Thompson is or the physical and mental abuse he has been accused of. I even missed the byline, so had no idea that who wrote it was a college coach. And even without that context, I thought it creepy, simply going by what I know about abuse prevention and recognizing/avoiding manipulation. I even thought the tone of the article a bit off, aside the content.

 

[gasrgoose]

I covered the email in detail in my OP and then again in a later post. You continue to challenge me for expressing my opinion and I think I have been clear about what facts and concerns my opinion rests upon, but it appears 1) you have not read my posts completely and 2) you are using anecdotal evidence of the stated experiences of "people you know" to counteract what you think I have said. So continuing to respond seems pointless to me. I am not sure why what I am saying is bothering you so much and in fact I cannot even understand where you disagree with me. I can only surmise you think I am saying something I am not.

You are correct I had not read all your posts or even the beginning of this thread. I apologize for posting not completely informed. The posts or sentence that grabbed my attention was this by you " My point is that gymnastics in particular and perhaps college sports in general appear to have a culture where the athlete's parents are actively discouraged from close oversight. With terrible results." It's probably not reasonable to pick out one sentence out of multiple posts but it just really bothered me.
I don't believe college recruiting or college athletics are broken and needing to be fixed. Sure it could be improved but what couldn't? I also think college recruiting services (and websites) are a waste of time and money. Recruiting is very simple, be great at your sport and not a lunatic, make decent grades and make sure your coach knows you want to participate in college athletics.
I also don't believe it is unique to gymnastics, that coaches don't want parental involvement. The Nassar abuse is not a representation of all of gymnastics. It's appears to be situation where too many adults were only looking at results and assuming nothing could be wrong. Elite gymnastics is a tiny portion of USAG, it's the most visible, but not a representation of the sport from level 1-10.

 

[Madden3]

You are correct I had not read all your posts or even the beginning of this thread. I apologize for posting not completely informed. The posts or sentence that grabbed my attention was this by you " My point is that gymnastics in particular and perhaps college sports in general appear to have a culture where the athlete's parents are actively discouraged from close oversight. With terrible results." It's probably not reasonable to pick out one sentence out of multiple posts but it just really bothered me.
I don't believe college recruiting or college athletics are broken and needing to be fixed. Sure it could be improved but what couldn't? I also think college recruiting services (and websites) are a waste of time and money. Recruiting is very simple, be great at your sport and not a lunatic, make decent grades and make sure your coach knows you want to participate in college athletics.
I also don't believe it is unique to gymnastics, that coaches don't want parental involvement. The Nassar abuse is not a representation of all of gymnastics. It's appears to be situation where too many adults were only looking at results and assuming nothing could be wrong. Elite gymnastics is a tiny portion of USAG, it's the most visible, but not a representation of the sport from level 1-10.

Ok thanks for this reply, as I now think I am closer to understanding where our opinions are at odds. You believe the Nassar abuse is isolated and gymnastics in particular should not be implicated. And I get it. I wish I could believe the same. But, I do not. I strongly believe that for something like the Nassar abuse to go on and on and on, unreported, ignored, silenced, disbelieved and unchecked, for so very many years- not at some remote little gym somewhere off the beaten track but rather at the most visible levels of the sport- does indeed indicate there is a gymnastics culture-wide problem. This does not mean, at all, that the sport is rife with abusive coaches or that most coaches and gyms or college teams are unsafe. But I do think that what is clear is that practices that, for decades, have widely been understood to be unsafe practices were never questioned- not by coaches or by parents. Also, what I have learned here on this forum from threads about changing gyms, fears of being "black balled" for being a labeled a "CGM" etc. is that there is fairly widespread fear/intimidation regarding some coaches and gyms at the very least felt by parents even of the youngest gymnasts...and that kind of fear is very likely to lead to too many parents not questioning and not listening to their own instincts when something seems off.

I spent over 4 years- all of HS and 1 year of college- at a school for "troubled teens" run in a cult-like manner where physical, mental and sexual abuse of the students by some of the faculty occurred regularly over the several decades of its existence. The vast majority of the staff were good, kind, idealistic people. Famous(ish) people sent their kids there and there was a waiting list to get in. Major news/opinion outlets extoled the virtues of the school. My loving parents mortgaged our family home to afford to send me there even though the school culture did all it could to destroy the familial bonds between parents and children to better control all of us. To this day, although the abuse is well documented at this point and many former students have been very outspoken about the abuse that occurred there, many other former students say (and I believe them) that they had a very positive experience at the school. So I know first-hand that abusive cultures are insidious in their manipulation of everyone involved, can look good and actually be good for some people who experience them, and can overcome the best intentions of the best people involved with them. So, I believe that when it comes to preventing abuse, knowledge and vigilance is the only remedy.

 

[sewgood]

Yes. The article was written by Jeff Thompson and is in the April/May 2016 issue of USAG gymnastics. It was actually easy to find once I looked. While I read it originally at the time in the hard copy magazine my boys received for being USAG members, here is the link to find past issues: http://www.usagymlegacy.org/library/decade/2010s/

As I mentioned before, I read the article before I had any idea who wrote it or who Jeff Thompson is or the physical and mental abuse he has been accused of. I even missed the byline, so had no idea that who wrote it was a college coach. And even without that context, I thought it creepy, simply going by what I know about abuse prevention and recognizing/avoiding manipulation. I even thought the tone of the article a bit off, aside the content.

I just read it. There is definitely a gross/creepy feeling reading that. Ick.