Parents Daughter getting left behind

[gymjunkie]

I think every gymnast deserves the same chance to reach their maximum potential regardless of if that potential is C or F

If there are only so many "better coaches" to go around, how would you divide the team? Who should get the better coaches? I don't believe anyone should get a bad coach, but what is your solution to the fact that coaching ability ranges from master to apprentice and there are more girls who want to compete than masters available? If everyone who competes gets the master (out of fairness), then we are going to have to limit the amount of competitors in the sport since there aren't enough masters to go around. Would you rather have your average gymnast not be allowed to compete or would you want them to have the opportunity to compete under someone being mentored by a master coach?

 

[profmom]

I think there are a lot of possibilities for how to deal with a team that's too large for all of the gymnasts to have access to the top coaches at all times. On the girls' side, the coaches do event coaching so that they have specialized coaches who train particular events. As they move up, the male coaches do a little more with them on floor because it's easier for them to spot.

On the boys' side, there's been some discontent among our middle compulsory group because they haven't had as much of program director's time as they'd like, but it seems unreasonable for him to leave the optionals to work on double flipping dismounts so he can help them get kips and uprises. But he does work it out so he is coaching them some of the time.

The key for us on both sides is that the best and most senior coaches work with both the newest and the most advanced team members. The newest, so that foundational skills are taught correctly, and the most advanced, because they are the ones with the most experience teaching the big skills our optionals need. But it's all about where the kids are, not what track they are on.

 

[kris]

I know of 2 NCAA all americans who repeated level 8 at a similar age. Don't become discouraged. Some coaches "favorites" change with the seasons, literally. It's not great, but I don't think it means she is forever cast out of favor. She just needs to keep working and believing in herself.

This makes me feel better as my DD will be repeating 8 this year, will be 12, and still has college gym as a goal. I though the repeat was going to put that entirely out of reach, but maybe she still has a small chance.

To the OP, I'm sorry your DD is feeling cast aside, and I hope this year of repeating 8 will be great for both our girls.

 

[gymjunkie]

On the boys' side, there's been some discontent among our middle compulsory group because they haven't had as much of program director's time as they'd like, but it seems unreasonable for him to leave the optionals to work on double flipping dismounts so he can help them get kips and uprises. But he does work it out so he is coaching them some of the time.

You just proved my point. Even when a gym does everything right to try to accommodate all levels, there is discontent. Someone always feels slighted and cries unfair. You may think it's unreasonable for the program director to leave the optionals to help the compulsories, but some of the parents of the compulsories seem to have a problem with it. They wonder how much better their child would be if only they had more time with the PD.

 

[Yuenling]

If there are only so many "better coaches" to go around, how would you divide the team? Who should get the better coaches? I don't believe anyone should get a bad coach, but what is your solution to the fact that coaching ability ranges from master to apprentice and there are more girls who want to compete than masters available? If everyone who competes gets the master (out of fairness), then we are going to have to limit the amount of competitors in the sport since there aren't enough masters to go around. Would you rather have your average gymnast not be allowed to compete or would you want them to have the opportunity to compete under someone being mentored by a master coach?

I understand that there are limited resources. That's why I think it should be transparent how the decisions are made. Otherwise, it just seems very seems arbitrary.

 

[profmom]

You just proved my point. Even when a gym does everything right to try to accommodate all levels, there is discontent. Someone always feels slighted and cries unfair. You may think it's unreasonable for the program director to leave the optionals to help the compulsories, but some of the parents of the compulsories seem to have a problem with it. They wonder how much better their child would be if only they had more time with the PD.

Oh, you have no idea . . . but hopefully the more time in, the more people will relax and figure out that the program is good and will help everyone to move forward at an appropriate pace.

 

[gymjunkie]

I understand that there are limited resources. That's why I think it should be transparent how the decisions are made. Otherwise, it just seems very seems arbitrary.

It's hard to do that in a way that satisfies parents. If I am separating 2 kids into 2 separate tracks after both just completed pre-team or level 3 (or any other level for that matter), I probably can't justify my reasons in a way that satisfies the parent of the child going into the slower-moving group (although another coach would see the justification). Parents look at concrete evidence such as skills and scores when there is so much more to the selection process.

Also -- it's not always about the coach, it's as much about the grouping of the kids. If there were more than 24 hours in a day, all the kids would be able to get the same top coaches. They still would not be placed in the same groups and they would not move ahead at the same pace.

 

[wallinbl]

It's hard to do that in a way that satisfies parents. If I am separating 2 kids into 2 separate tracks after both just completed pre-team or level 3 (or any other level for that matter), I probably can't justify my reasons in a way that satisfies the parent of the child going into the slower-moving group (although another coach would see the justification). Parents look at concrete evidence such as skills and scores when there is so much more to the selection process.

At our gym, it's fairly simple - the HC won't be your coach until level 10. You'll get him a day here and there before that, but he won't consistently coach any events for you before level 10. The coaches all have their events and levels. While that changes a little from year to year, your level sets who your coaches are. That wouldn't necessarily help the OP, as our gym has different coaches for L8 and L9, so there would be coaching differentiation for repeating, but a second year L8 would practice some days with the 8's and some days with the 9's.

 

[B.Gold]

^^ my dd's gym runs similarly and there is never talk of unfairness in terms of coaching. There's no shortage of great coaching. The angst usually boils down to the leap of the choice hours.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

Not sure if the OP is still here.

And I don't have all the detail but based on what was shared, it seems this is not bad treatment. But that the gymmie has reached a point where she is not the gym superstar any longer.

This will happen to all gymmies at some point. Even multiple Olympic gold medalists get a point where they are not the superstar any longer. And they need to deal with it.

This sounds to me that this child has reached a point where she is now at a place where the competition is more level and she now needs to work more to keep going. Her natural ability has caught up with the other kids.

The reality is many kids can do Level 2 and 3, less Level 4, then 5 and so on. Winning meets will come down to less then a point as opposed to 2 or 3 or more points.

Everyone gets to the rubber meets the road time (its just not the same point for everyone).

And when this happens this is when you see, who stays and who goes.

Most can do well when they are the superstars. But the ones who keep going are nose to grindstone no matter a superstar or not.

I see this even with our lowly Level 4 group. Conditioning is become huge and the kids who don't deal well and those kids are the ones that are leaving.

This is why we don't focus on wins and comparison with my girl. It is about working hard, making your best personal effort.
Its the challenges overcome that are important. My daughter rocked Level 3 but I tell her all the time her best moment of the year was the meet she fell off the beam and how awesome her recovery was.

She is not going to be a superstar this year and going forward. How well she does will depend on hard work and the daily grind. And how well her work ethic is when she is not working directly with a coach. How far she goes will depend on how she deals not with wins and being a "favorite" but plowing through the hard parts.

The OPs daughter has gotten to a hard part. Her belief in herself and doing the work is going to become more important then being the coaches favorite.

JMO

 

[Seeker]

This conversation lends itself to the "why" many gyms and coaches choose not to have fully transparent communication with parents.

 

[lovemygymnast]

I agree with so many statements here. I think it's so hard sometimes to understand why coaches do the things they do, but we many times just have to blindly trust them. In your DD's situation, maybe the reason for moving from the "special" group was only to help with her confidence? As well as the repeating 8? As far as being disrespectful in front of the group? Absolutely not! So, meet with HC & have a heart to heart about public shaming your dd. No way, no how is that allowed. But be prepared, if that gym is basically the only game in town, you may not get the response you want. I would be thinking of checking out other gyms in the area prior to talking to her. Just my opinion. Don't let anything anyone says here chase you away, I'm quite sure it wasn't personal but just giving you a view from where they sit. Take it as just that & take some great advice from many other posters as well! Good luck!!

 

[gymjunkie]

Most can do well when they are the superstars. But the ones who keep going are nose to grindstone no matter a superstar or not.

JMO

Yes... this is what I would be telling my daughter if she were in the OP's situation! This is a great test for her to find out if she is internally motivated or if she depends on the approval of others to accomplish her goal of a college scholarship.

 

[Deleted member 14190]

People, there is no such thing as repeating level 8, 9 or 10. The term 2nd year is used because it is extremely common. The kid will be fine and have a great season, mom needs to not get caught up in the emotional drama of kids and sports (hard to do as a parent I know! )

 

[Deleted member 14190]

I think every gymnast deserves the same chance to reach their maximum potential regardless of if that potential is C or F, especially if they are paying the same amount of money and training at the same practice. If there is a rubric to determine which girl gets the better coach, then that rubric should be transparent so that the gymnast feels a sense of control of her own destiny. It is a terrible feeling to wonder if your DD might have done better if she had the better coach, and not understand exactly why she is not given that treatment.

At my DD's gym, this unfairness was rubbed in because we have such big teams. The girls end up competing against themselves in most meets, and the girls who get the better coaching always do better, and the girls who did not get better coaching are left wondering if they could have done better.

==
That is just one perspective, the other end and realistic end,, is kids are put into groups that will maximize the potential. A child that is not keeping up with the others will get left behind and actually get set up for failure. So instead we put them in with kids who are at the same speed, so they actually get to train through progressions. Of course from a parents point of view, it's just unfair.... Absolutely no way to convince some parents of this,,,, no way...

 

[SurpriseGymMom]

But no parent wants to hear/imagine/come to grips with the fact that their special snowflake might not, indeed, BE that special and a superstar..!

Don't get me wrong, any kid that goes into that gym every day knowing that today is going to be another hard practice, puts in the effort plus blood, sweat and tears IS a superstar in my book!!

But, as has been said, some just have more potential than others. Some work harder than others. Some stall out (temporarily or more permanently) because of growth or fear or other issues.
It's natural that the training groups will fluctuate throughout the years. It's natural that some kids will move fast/slow at different times in their training. It takes good coaches to see where kids will have the most success even if that's not what the parents wants.

I'm on both sides of this as a coach and as a parent, but I have to trust that the coaches have every kids best interest at heart.
For the record, my kid is NOT in any special group, never has been, probably never will be. That's ok, she's getting great training and she keeps on truckin' because none of this has ever come easy to her. She gets the same attention as the girls that have had an easier time because she keeps working hard and going for it. when girls (mine or others) are proving themselves to not be particularly coachable one day, the coaches do step away rather than persist, which I'm sure if you are a parent looking for injustice would appear as if the coach isn't paying attention to your kid, doesn't like your kid, whatever. In reality, if a gymnast isn't inclined to even try to make corrections, it's better to take a breather and not move any further that practice and start fresh the next day. But again, very few parents want to hear that little Suzie just wasn't putting any effort in (today, this week, this month, this year).... Easier to blame the coaches for slowing down and not progressing as fast.

 

[Flyaway]

==
That is just one perspective, the other end and realistic end,, is kids are put into groups that will maximize the potential. A child that is not keeping up with the others will get left behind and actually get set up for failure. So instead we put them in with kids who are at the same speed, so they actually get to train through progressions. Of course from a parents point of view, it's just unfair.... Absolutely no way to convince some parents of this,,,, no way...

I have seen this first hand with my dd this summer. And I can tell you beyond any doubt I am SO grateful we trusted the coaches when they "held her back", instead of pushing for her to move up a training group with the rest of her team. She has thrived training in a group where she's not falling behind anymore, and amazingly, she almost has all the new skills her old group has too! It works!

 

[gymjunkie]

In contrast to Flyaway's story, there is a mom at our gym who pushed to have her daughter move up to a fast moving group in order to stay with 4 girls she had started out with on pre-team (10 other girls she started out with were not moving into the faster group, but her daughter was better friends with the 4). At the time when they would have been separated, all 5 girls had completed their first level of compulsories. Mom won the argument. One year later, 3 USAG levels separated her daughter from the girls who legitimately belonged in the group, even though they all came the same # of hours and worked with the same coach and did the same workout. The gymnast herself asked to be moved into a lower group. Mom still didn't understand how it was possible for her daughter to "fall so behind" when she had the same skill set as the other girls at the beginning of the year, had the same coaching and the same workouts. At first she suggested there was favoritism going on. Then she blamed her daughter. Her daughter started hating gym and quit while still in compulsories. All of the other girls from the original 10 are now beginning optionals and doing great. The one who quit would've also done great had she been allowed to move at her own pace.

 

[gasrgoose]

I just want to address all of the "special treatment" us coaches give the kids who are on a faster track...

Any coach who has been in this sport more than 1 season can relate to being confronted with "if my child got as much attention as that child, they would be that good too." The problem is, it's just not true. At most gyms, we have a limited amount of full-time/career coaches with decades of experience. Sure if every child on every path got "those coaches," they would likely do better than they would being coached by an apprentice coach (who is in almost all cases being mentored and supervised by the experienced coaches). I will concede that more experienced coaching equals a better gymnast, however, it's not true that they would catch up to the kids who are on a faster moving track. The reason faster moving kids are scouted out and placed with the more experienced coaches and faster moving kids is those kids might lose an opportunity that is well within their grasp (JO champion, college scholarship or elite qualification) if they are placed with a less experienced coach or with kids who slow down their progress. The average gymnast does not lose that opportunity, because they never had the potential in the first place. So when an average gymnast is placed with an apprentice coach, the outcome is that they may only make it as far as level B, when they might have made it to level C if they had the super star coach. They still wouldn't have made it to level E or F. Or they might have still only made it to level B, but they might have scored higher/placed better. The placement did not take away their chances to get a spot on the national team/scholarship, because that was never within their abilities in the first place. With either coach, that gymnast had the fantastic opportunity to be on a gymnastics team which gave them so many invaluable life skills, character traits, friendships and memories (things that go far beyond a level or a score).

There are times when a gymnast does not initially appear to be on the fast track and then out of nowhere they mature or just start working harder and prove themselves to be a late-blooming super-gymnast. That kid should then moved in with the fast moving group. There are also times when a fast-moving kid slows down. They are then moved into a slower-moving group. There are also times when, talent aside, the right chemistry is missing between the coach and the gymnast (or the gym culture) and they need a different environment to bring out their potential. None of those scenarios are the same as special treatment or poor treatment.

If there are only so many "better coaches" to go around, how would you divide the team? Who should get the better coaches? I don't believe anyone should get a bad coach, but what is your solution to the fact that coaching ability ranges from master to apprentice and there are more girls who want to compete than masters available? If everyone who competes gets the master (out of fairness), then we are going to have to limit the amount of competitors in the sport since there aren't enough masters to go around. Would you rather have your average gymnast not be allowed to compete or would you want them to have the opportunity to compete under someone being mentored by a master coach?

You just proved my point. Even when a gym does everything right to try to accommodate all levels, there is discontent. Someone always feels slighted and cries unfair. You may think it's unreasonable for the program director to leave the optionals to help the compulsories, but some of the parents of the compulsories seem to have a problem with it. They wonder how much better their child would be if only they had more time with the PD.

It's hard to do that in a way that satisfies parents. If I am separating 2 kids into 2 separate tracks after both just completed pre-team or level 3 (or any other level for that matter), I probably can't justify my reasons in a way that satisfies the parent of the child going into the slower-moving group (although another coach would see the justification). Parents look at concrete evidence such as skills and scores when there is so much more to the selection process.

Also -- it's not always about the coach, it's as much about the grouping of the kids. If there were more than 24 hours in a day, all the kids would be able to get the same top coaches. They still would not be placed in the same groups and they would not move ahead at the same pace.

Yes... this is what I would be telling my daughter if she were in the OP's situation! This is a great test for her to find out if she is internally motivated or if she depends on the approval of others to accomplish her goal of a college scholarship.

I just wanted to quote all these together because I think they present a very accurate and realistic presentation of gymnastics grouping, potential etc. Thanks for taking the time to put these thoughts into words. I think it would be helpful for new gymnastics parents to read this.

 

[gymdog]

People, there is no such thing as repeating level 8, 9 or 10. The term 2nd year is used because it is extremely common. The kid will be fine and have a great season, mom needs to not get caught up in the emotional drama of kids and sports (hard to do as a parent I know! )

Right, there is a huge range of skills in these levels and typically a gymnast competes a totally different routine on at least one event, even if she continues to struggle with another event. The difference between a basic beginner level 8 and a kid who is prepared to move to 9 is very big. And the difference between a basic level 9 and a kid who will be competitive in 10 is also big. And they need to learn how to warm up and compete big skills on a timeline, consistency, continue to improve lines and form because by the older ages of level 10 and NCAA you need to be rock solid and clean. Even if they improve nothing other than their consistency and form and strength in their 2nd year at an optional level that is HUGE.