WAG DD wants to do team!

[OzZee]

Maybe being in Australia where if you are not in the IDP path there is no hope of going to the Olympics changes thoughts but my dd has no desire to go to the Olympics even if she could. She just loves gymnastics with a passion. And I love that she is so passionate about something, that she is so fit and strong and healthy, that she has a physical outlet for all her energy and she isn't sitting on a computer for hours on end every night.
She's not a medaller at the moment but who knows how she will go if she continues, but I'm so glad we are in a place where she can be a participant in something she loves and doesn't have any expectations of a dream that only a very very few can reach and even if she was more talented she'd still only have a small chance of achieving. Her goal is to place on vault this year - a reasonable short term goal, not a pipe dream.

But yeh I'm certain my daughter would say "I want to do gymnastics so I can be a participant". She wants to do gymnastics because she loves it and if she gets a ribbon or certificate or medal then that's icing on the cake but she is very happy without that icing.

 

[iwannacoach]

Please forgive me for possibly the longest post in chalkbucket's history. I went to this length because I feel I've been miss-understood.....and labeled as a result in an un-flattering way. My experience is with all kids, from pre school through to you name it. I value and enjoy the time I spend with kids in the sport....from kids wanting to learn a cartwheel to aspiring athletes pursuing a dream.



It looks like many of you took exception to my comments, which were intended more as a warning to parents of kids that have any dreams, rather than an indictment of those that participate and enjoy the sport. Allow me to apologize if you felt I was projecting an attitude towards those that participate without olympic dreams (c'mon it's a cliche'), or had presumed every child has them, because those statements were made to allow those who cared to go on a shopping trip, to make a informed choice

Sure, I've worked with some hotshot kids, but have also spent enjoyable hours on the same day working with pre-schoolers and others who themselves wouldn't care to be on the team. My hope is that every child that walks through the door gets the experience they came to the gym to get. I learned long ago that I have no right to choose which past time a child should embrace, and certainly not to judge them for the dreams they do or don't choose. Really, I'm just trying to protect kids from thier own dreams....well, sorta.

What I was hoping when I wrote my lengthy post, was to bring up an issue that can affect a child who dreams big, does everything the coach asks, but doesn't reach many of her goals because the gym's un-published mission statement excludes things like......providing coaches that can create solutions in partnership with a child, advancing children at their own rate of development, and providing adequate training hours to kids that advance to levels that require more time in the gym.

I don't know who of you may know enough to recognize this type of gym setting, or cares to avoid such a setting for their child. I would have no problem with these establishments doing as they do, if only they informed parents of the limits imposed on the program, and by extension the children that walk through the door each day.

I'm just going to guess that 1 in 7 kids wants to be on the gym team so badly they'll do whatever it takes to get there.....at home flexibility, strength exercises with mom or dad, and of course practicing on that floor beam that never ceases to wobble.
In my world I'd like to see all of them make the team. Now I'm going to guess at gyms who's team program is an automatic extension of the rec program, as in you learned all of the level 3 skills and are immediately invited to the team program, the ratio of kids that find themselves on team is closer to 3 in 7.

Before you jump to the conclusion that I can't stand seeing kids placed on a team, let me say that if every single one of those three children wanted to be there from day one, or at least for a period of time before landing in the team program, I'd be ok with it......sort of. To make me happy you'd also have to combine those team new comers with coaches that appreciate how fragile a child is, and have the ability and intention to mentor that child as they begin their team experience. Further, I'd want to see coaches at the next level, and all subsequent level that have the attributes required of a competent, caring mentor, and my definition of competent requires an ability to move the child through the level in one year....at least up to level 6 where things get a little more demanding.

I think these are pretty important traits to look for in a gym club, because the thing is.....when a child gets placed on a team they start building ambitions, setting goals, and dreaming. Maybe not those olympic dreams, but dreams that are very real to them.....and real to them alone, as they often keep those dreams to themselves because the last thing they want to hear is that their dreams probably can't or won't come true.

I'm respectfully asking you to consider.....if your child was put on the rec/extension team, would you tell them that they shouldn't use their selection as a validation of above average, or extraordinary ability, and to run all their dreams by you for a reality check. Probably not to the extent needed to reign in those dreams.....and you shouldn't do that any way, because your role as parent is to support, admire, respect, protect, and love your child.

So who's awake at the switch.....certainly not the club that places as many kids as possible in their level 4 program, where there's an institution wide policy of repeating at least one year so kids can fortify and fine tune their basics and presentation. These folks don't want you, or your little Suzie (who still cant kip, but we're working on it) to do the math and figure out that an 8yo spending two years on a level 4 team will become a 10yo L5, and since that's a tougher level, she'll likely spend 2 years getting ready for the rigors of L6, which is genuinely a challenge.

So here's your child at what may be mid journey as a 12yo level 6, which means she's at least 13 years old as a level 7. Please don't read into this that I wouldn't enjoy training a 13yo level 7, because I have, and it's a lot of fun, but this is the age where they seem to gather in their surroundings and see the big picture. Often they see their dreams are not lining up with their past 5 or 6 year's experience, and level 7, while exciting, is harder than L6 and will take at least 2 years to get through to level 8....if it's possible at all. So where's that leave her.......still dreaming about competing on a college team....like at the meet mom and dad took her to? Maybe, but the dream she didn't tell you about and held close for the past two years of getting a scholarship now seems ridiculous.

She's finally made it to level 8 where she gets to work on really cool stuff like tsukahara vaults, baby release moves on bars, and tumbling skills on beam and floor she's been wanting to do since she was 9 years old. I'd celebrate with her, except by now all but the luckiest of these 15 yo level eights have been done in by their changing bodies. They've grown and their strength hasn't kept up because the strength training at the gym isn't designed to support kids with mature bodies for work on any but the most elementary of the level 8 requirements. So there goes the full twisting front, the back handspring series on beam, the tsukahara vault, and just about every other cool skill she ever wanted.

By now the kid's figured competing in college is gone, the chance to train as a level 9 or 10 isn't looking too swell either....never mind that dream of qualifying, just once, to nationals. The way things are going she'll be lucky to make it through the season and qualify for regionals. At the end of the season she has a choice to make. She could continue on with vastly diminished dreams, if any, because she enjoys the sport. Or she could hang in there just in case she catches fire (training metaphor), or just hang in there because that's what she's done since age 8, and can't really come to terms with having been so out of line with reality.

That may not be exactly what I wrote the first time, but this post expresses the long version of how I feel about team programs. I really have no problem with kids confused about how to wear a leotard being placed on a team, as long as the training provided to all of the kids resembles something that can get these kids anywhere close to where they want to go. Geez, as long as they're sincere, and work as hard as the next kid....that's great. They just have to want to be there badly enough to work hard enough to support their team mates. Scores...results....who cares, if goals are set and work gets done, everything falls into place.

What doesn't fall into place in my perfect world, are the gym clubs that allow kids to flounder on a regular basis as a part of their business model. I've seen them, I know they exist, and guess what else.....Some of them actually tell parents that their kids are great one year, having a hard time the next year, and seems to be getting it together the next year, just to establish that the childs fortunes are at the mercy of what the child is able to do, and when you ask why Suzie can't kip they'll tell you that Suzie needs to focus harder on her corrections, or she let's herself down by not finishing the skill, or any number of reasons....anything but admitting that the workouts are a loosly supervised free-for-all of 13 kids with a coach who's long age stopped caring if the kids progress the way they should.....oh, but I guess that's the way it should be, because if the kids really wanted it, they all as a group would agree to create and maintain an atmosphere that would help them make the skills.

Maybe this one makes a little more sense.

 

[OzZee]

I understand what you mean about having realistic dreams and that some clubs can foster unrealistic dreams/try to pander to kids/parents wishes by offering/implying things that aren't going to happen.
But, once again, I think being in Australia the focus is different. We don't have olympic dreams (except for the few chosen/who chose to go down the idp route) or college dreams (doesn't exist) so the only dreams the kids have are to gain the next skill, move up to the next level (though I don't really even see that as being a factor for the kids, they seem much more skill and personal aim orientated) and to do however well they want in the next competition/state championships etc. (they still love winning a medal, but the love of it is forgotten the next day and my daughter has enjoyed comps where she has won nothing the same as ones where she has won loads of medals - I think we also give out less places (???? think I read that) so not getting something is more common here)

Mostly the kids and the coaches are skill oriented. The club we are at particularly so with a lot of upskilling in the areas the kids are proficient in to keep them interested.

As for the age thing, lol, well that's the average ages here - an average level 4 is 11-12, level 6 13-14 (ie that is the age to compete intermediate which has the largest group).

So whilst I understand where you are coming from there still seems to be an attitude of if you can't make something of your gymnastics career (elite, level 10, college) then why do it and have your own personal dreams however minor they are.

 

[profmom]

Iwannacoach, thanks for your post. It provides a lot of food for thought. I wish that more US gyms and US gymnasts had the attitude that OzZee describes. Heck, I wish that attitude were more prevalent across all US children's competitive sports! And it's hard to know precisely how to diagnose the problem, but the best I can do without designing a real study is to suggest, from my observations, that a lot of this is about parental expectations and the structural incentives for club sports operators/managers to cater to those expectations.

This really came home to me a few months ago when for the first time we arranged some privates for DD with a senior coach in the gym. (The Reader's Digest version: she was at that point not a sure thing for moving up to L7 but really wanted to, so we agreed to get her some extra help on bars.) When we set up the lessons, he gave us a speech about how DD reminded him of one of his early protegees who also was not very strong and pretty noodly, but whom he had eventually coached to the Cinderella ending of an NCAA scholarship. I nodded and smiled, but inside my head, I felt huge cognitive dissonance, because a college scholarship has never been the point of supporting DD in her pursuit of this sport, and I don't think it's something she ever thinks about either. And now as a brand new optional parent, I can see that some parents really are driven by that fantasy. At our gym, it seems to be a thankfully small number, but it is most definitely there. (And don't even ask about the talk I overhead at DS's middle school end-of-season soccer banquet last week!)

What I wish could happen that probably can't in the for-profit environment of club sports is that coaches and club operators could do more to educate parents and get them to see that the real value of the sport is not some potential $ payoff. The value is the love that the kids can learn for that sport, the joy they take in doing it, and the life lessons they acquire along the way. Every time they win, they learn something, just as they do when they lose. They learn about how working hard can help them succeed in acquiring skills, but they also learn that hard work does not always produce successful results. That is pure gold that will last long after the last back handspring -- or the last double back, for that matter.

My DD is likely to be one of those kids who, if she chooses to stick with it, will make it to L8 but have a hard time going further. At some point, she'll probably make the difficult decision that she's progressed as far as she can in the sport, and she will drop out of USAG, maybe to compete high school gym. (Now of course even as I write this, I realize that somewhere in the back of my primitive brain, I foster a secret hope that she will really blossom as an optional! ) But for her, we'll try to help her see it as a successful experience because of what she will have gotten out of it by then. And I think her USAG coaches will be willing to help her with this.

I just wish that for all of these hard-working kids, their parents and coaches will pay attention to the realities of what they can do, help them to take joy in what they are doing right now, and avoid setting them up for crushing disappointments as teenagers, when everything is already emotionally so much larger than life. And, most of all, that the parents will let their gymnasts see that they love them and admire them as their children, not their gymnasts.

 

[clark222]

I have read enough of your posts on here, iwannacoach, to know that you have a level head on these sorts of topics. And I did not take personal offense to your post. I only responded to give a little insight to what is means to be a "participant, " or parent of one. No gym is perfect. Ours does not have a mission statement. And I will be the first to say that while I like and trust our coaches, they have great limitations themselves. They have never coached beyond L7 aside from the single wanna-be-L8 gymnast they currently have. And she is not planning to progress past that, if she makes it. There is never talk about elite, olympics, or college scholarships in our gym. Our girls start much later than most on here, have less training hours, and are mostly girls who finished the rec options in our gym but did not feel done enough to walk away. Some of our "team" girls do not even compete, they just enjoy the practices and do their thing for in house meets and expos, never setting foot in an actual competition.

When I talk about this, I am referring to a completely different sport than you are. These girls have very modest and reachable goals. They learn a great deal about determination and work ethic....even if it takes three years to learn that BHS they set out to tackle. Most child athletes are in this category. Sure, there are cracker jack basketball players, swimmers, and cross country runners. But MOST are in it for the fun, exercise, and small goals. Beating their best mile time, making a free throw, etc.....

That is where we are. There are no other options in my area. The girls on my dd's team watched the olympics in total awe then went back to getting geeked about a teammates FHS. They have never seen a giant in person....not even at our meets.

I shared many of your concerns when my dd begged to be on the team. I am a former gymnast and I know how it works. allowing my (tall) kid to be a L2 as a 7yo, the writing was on the wall. I wondered what the point was. I struggled as I wondered about her future in the sport. And honestly, I still do. Often. But my kid is the one actually leading me here. She LOVES it. She has taught me that sometimes you don't do things because there is a future of glory. You do them because you enjoy the journey.

 

[clark222]

I wanted to add that my responses are not meant to be a rebuttal to iwannacoach. I only want to point out to anyone reading this thread who might have a child that does not have elite or college aspirations that there is a place in the sport for them. There are entire teams, and in our case, regions for them. The OP might very well be interested in a gym that can take their child to the upper levels of the sport and iwannacoach's response might be far more useful than anything I am referring to. I just worry that someone who comes reading here will get the impression that there is no place for older kids, tall kids, kids who just want to improve, hang out with friends, get some exercise, participate in low-level competitions, etc...... I agree with iwannacoach whole-heartedly that it is dishonest and even cruel for a gym to give the impression that everyone can be an olympian if they just work hard enough but then not provide any of the support necessary to make that goal remotely realistic.

 

[JoyAvenueMom]

What I was hoping when I wrote my lengthy post, was to bring up an issue that can affect a child who dreams big, does everything the coach asks, but doesn't reach many of her goals because the gym's un-published mission statement excludes things like......providing coaches that can create solutions in partnership with a child, advancing children at their own rate of development, and providing adequate training hours to kids that advance to levels that require more time in the gym.

I don't know who of you may know enough to recognize this type of gym setting, or cares to avoid such a setting for their child. I would have no problem with these establishments doing as they do, if only they informed parents of the limits imposed on the program, and by extension the children that walk through the door each day."


Thank you for this post, iwannacoach. I think dd's gym is a rec program mascarading as a competetive program. My dd is the "1 in 7" you talked about, willing to do anything to be on team and still openly talks about her gymnastics dreams. I don't know how far her talent will take her, but you helped me understand why I feel so frustrated with our current gym. Basically, it is a rec program that allows girls to compete. Everyone who masters level 1 is invited to be on "team". I have no problem with that, dd joined at L2 so that her grandparents would show up to watch . But four years into this sport, I am just now figuring out that dd's dreams may not line up with the "mission" of the gym. She won't have a chance to progress beyond L6 or 7 with the current gym. She is 8yo and trains with 13yo and 15 yo L5/6s who talk about competing in college some day. Sadly, even if they have the necessary talent/drive, these girls will never have that opportunity because our gym is not capable of training at that level, and NO ONE has bothered to tell the parents. The maximum training time available for any gymast is 12 hours per week. The owner/HC proudly admits the lower level of commitment helps keep kids in the sport longer. Again, I am okay with that. I just wish that admission was accompanied by:, "our gym is also not interested in training/preparing gymnasts for high level optionals or a chance at the collegiate dream, so when your child reaches our limit, we will help you find a new gym." Instead, I now recognize the pattern you mentioned...2 years at L4, 3 years at L5, and 3 years at L6. And the gym's mission is fulfilled, "Keep the girls in the sport longer".
The fact that some girls might have had goals beyond "staying involved through HS" seems to be irrelevant.

 

[mommyof1]

That may not be exactly what I wrote the first time, but this post expresses the long version of how I feel about team programs. I really have no problem with kids confused about how to wear a leotard being placed on a team, as long as the training provided to all of the kids resembles something that can get these kids anywhere close to where they want to go. Geez, as long as they're sincere, and work as hard as the next kid....that's great. They just have to want to be there badly enough to work hard enough to support their team mates. Scores...results....who cares, if goals are set and work gets done, everything falls into place.

Here I don't think my perspective is that far away from yours. What I am looking for is coaches who will accept my daughter for who she is--a motivated kid who is willing to work hard--and give her coaching that will enable her to maximize her potential instead of relegating her to the "paying the electric bill" group, even if that potential is not a college scholarship or the Olympics.

 

[coachmolly]

I just want to echo IWC post as those were my exact experiences as a gymnast. I started out as an 8 year old who loved gymnastics more than any other kid in the gym and made the team in less than a year, but because of inadequate coaching, that 9 year old level 4 was there 2 years before doing 2 years as a level 5 and then being thrown onto a USAIGC team and told it was "just like level 7." After 2 years of that I switched to a middle of the pack gym and was placed back in level 6 as a 15 year old because, exactly like IWC said, the conditioning program offered to me was inadequate to keep up with my growth and while I could throw some level 8 skills, they were far from technically correct. And the kid who was so devoted to gymnastics and would have done anything to walk on to a D3 college team only to be the official team mat mover was so totally disheartened I stopped training (though I clearly did not walk away from gymnastics entirely).
These kinds of gyms are a dime a dozen, ones who don't give a hoot about how hard your kid works or how badly they want to do gymnastics, especially if they don't fit into their little mold. And too many gyms have options that make you feel like they want your kid but really it's a "2nd class" program with less than adequate coaching to make you feel like your kid is advancing so you keep shelling out the money (I'm not talking about the gyms with USAG and Prep-op teams who clearly market the distinctions between the 2, rather gyms who are sneaky about the divisions).
I get so mad to see gyms with those "paying the electric bill" groups (as mommyof1 so nicely put it), not only for their unwillingness to give kids who love gymnastics a chance, but for not being honest, giving kids less than adequate instruction, and other just plain crummy business practices.

 

[mommyof1]

I get so mad to see gyms with those "paying the electric bill" groups (as mommyof1 so nicely put it), not only for their unwillingness to give kids who love gymnastics a chance, but for not being honest, giving kids less than adequate instruction, and other just plain crummy business practices.

Phrase stolen from dunno.

 

[iwannacoach]

I just want to echo IWC post as those were my exact experiences as a gymnast. I started out as an 8 year old who loved gymnastics more than any other kid in the gym and made the team in less than a year, but because of inadequate coaching, that 9 year old level 4 was there 2 years before doing 2 years as a level 5 and then being thrown onto a USAIGC team and told it was "just like level 7." After 2 years of that I switched to a middle of the pack gym and was placed back in level 6 as a 15 year old because, exactly like IWC said, the conditioning program offered to me was inadequate to keep up with my growth and while I could throw some level 8 skills, they were far from technically correct. And the kid who was so devoted to gymnastics and would have done anything to walk on to a D3 college team only to be the official team mat mover was so totally disheartened I stopped training (though I clearly did not walk away from gymnastics entirely).
These kinds of gyms are a dime a dozen, ones who don't give a hoot about how hard your kid works or how badly they want to do gymnastics, especially if they don't fit into their little mold. And too many gyms have options that make you feel like they want your kid but really it's a "2nd class" program with less than adequate coaching to make you feel like your kid is advancing so you keep shelling out the money (I'm not talking about the gyms with USAG and Prep-op teams who clearly market the distinctions between the 2, rather gyms who are sneaky about the divisions).
I get so mad to see gyms with those "paying the electric bill" groups (as mommyof1 so nicely put it), not only for their unwillingness to give kids who love gymnastics a chance, but for not being honest, giving kids less than adequate instruction, and other just plain crummy business practices.

I'm sorry you had to go through the "undercoached" phase to be able to appreciate what I've said. I tried to delete portions of your post to highlight your best statements, but they were all so relevent I couldn't find a thing to get rid of. I love how you've taken that experience and fortified your resolve to help kids regardless their ablities an motivation to be as good as their contribution can make them......

I don't know if you've ever hear me describe my start as an athlete in the sport, but I was undercoached as well by a great coach.....if you played football. I respect the man immensely because he was honest about his limits, and all on the team knew it fell directly on their own shoulders to gain any ground. Fortunately that was back in the days when you got stoked because the highschool team hosting the meet had provided a new, state of the art wrestling mat for floor exercise, and clubs for guys like me were nowhere in sight.

So just like you, I was keen on providing as a coach the things I never had, and that's been the way I roll ever since. I just wanted to add that I enjoy teaching any and all the most basic skills, and have never stopped learning a better way to work with kids of all levels and of all descriptions....because thats the way it should be.

 

[gym.new.bee]

Thanks again for the suggestions and encouragement. We will hang on for a bit longer, but not indefinitely. I still do not have the nerve to ask, but I am working on it. It feels very awkward, or maybe I am just not ready to hear and have to tell my daughter no....