WAG Difference between 5/6/7

[profmom]

I don't think you'd survive in DS's program very long, Txgal! Every other week a different boys' team parent hears a different story about the levels our guys will be competing next year. At the beginning of last summer, we were told in no uncertain terms, "everyone's competing L6," and then in September, it was "a couple guys are moving up to 6," and then it was "everyone's competing L5 and a couple of 6s are moving down to 5," and finally, the 6s stayed 6s and the 5s stayed 5s. It was maddening at the time, but after the coaches had figured it out and made a final decision and everyone had settled down, it all worked out fine for the boys, and the ones who move up this year (about which the drama is beginning!) should have great years at L6 after perfecting their form at L5.

What I learned from this (or internalized) is that the level a child is competing is way less important than what s/he is training. DD, too, was a bit unhappy that she didn't compete L8 in 2013-14, but she stayed with her training group and trained those skills, which will hopefully make for a much stronger start at L8 this season coming up.

 

[gracyomalley]

Our girls learned the hard way. No giants for level 7 = creamed.
They are now including giants for level 7 as mandatory....

Actually, NOT TRUE - no giants for level 7 requires CLEAN and FULL handstands, etc - but DD placed in top 5 at all meets without giants all season as a L7....and is now doing giants, FH-HS and overshoots for L8....

 

[wallflower]

Actually, NOT TRUE - no giants for level 7 requires CLEAN and FULL handstands, etc - but DD placed in top 5 at all meets without giants all season as a L7....and is now doing giants, FH-HS and overshoots for L8....

I assume by her name she is in Texas. That won't hold true there. They will all have giants and free hips to handstand.

 

[gracyomalley]

I still say it doesn't matter where you are from - a clean well done L7 bar routine without giants has a start value of 10 and there are no deductions for being "below comp standard" in L7.

Now, I am not arguing that for many gyms/regions/etc it makes more sense for a kid to do L6 if their giants aren't strong - and for progression, there's not a rush to get to L7 if the skills aren't solid. Our team doesn't do L6, and DD was already a L7 with high placement on bars prior to the changes....she's an anomaly, really - has been competing higher level skills in other areas - just couldn't tap right consistently and didn't want to chance falls when she was scoring well without giants...

As far as L6 or L7 - it depends a great deal on how your region uses L6. Ours primarily used it for girls who couldn't do L7 with 10 start values (or at least 3 of 4 events that way), or for the kids who "need to win" to feel successful. Many kids have historically spent 2 or more years at L7, that can now be 6 then 7 and for some girls this may preserve the feeling of "moving up" even if they don't have significantly higher skills....

The most important thing would be that the coaches have your DD dreams in mind and have a long term plan for her that will at least leave the window open for those dreams. In our region, the best girls can hope for is college, D1. HC coaches with that in mind and looks at each girls progression individually. There are older girls moved up without everything "perfected" as long as they are safe, and there are younger girls (like DD) who stay back to gain confidence. This is not sandbagging (as we are not talking about girls scoring 38s, just 36s), but a plan that works in the long run for that kid. I would think with how much up training your gym seems to do that either level for next year would be fine as long as the training continues - and if your DD feels more confident with higher placements at meets, then L6 then L7 may be the way to go....

 

[profmom]

Around here, it looks like giants are becoming the cutoff between 6 and 7, but a few teams do seem to be competing 7 without giants. This only seems to work well for girls who have superb free hips. But even at L7, a giant with bent arms is going to get big deductions at most meets, as will poor shapes, so sometimes a clean routine without giants will score ahead of a routine with weak giants. And I think most judges everywhere are really looking at those cast angles at L7, whether the routine has giants or not.

 

[gymdog]

I'm not sure, which is probably the root of what's bothering me. DD and her teammates were told they would be competing 7 next season and then, out of the blue, with no particular event or trigger, HC decided she was going to compete them 6. Naturally, the girls (not just DD) are quite confused and believe HC doubts their ability to do 7 skills.

Well, we never planned on doing 6. But then this year in our state people had 6s doing full level 7 routines, giants, etc so now we aren't sure where it fits in our program. I think a lot if gyms are still trying to work this out. Could be as simple as that. And I imagine in TX it was way worse.

 

[Natalia]

Tokyo 2020?




Step away from the fire.

 

[mimi]

I concur with the posters stating that level 7 can be brutal in the competition. We are in a fairly competitive state and we found this year that those who moved to level 7 were very solid with those skills, otherwise if they were borderline they went 6. My dd was an 11 year old level 7 and usually in JrA I believe, and the competition was fierce. My dd scored in the 37s consistently and only came up with a couple of first place AAs. She scored over a 38 at states and got second and a 38 at regionals got her a NINTH AA. Anything below a 37 really didn't get you much. If your dd gets discouraged by scores it could be in her best interest to go 6. She can still include giants in her level 6 routine. However, if by December all of her skills are very technically solid and her form is great, I would think she could go 7.

 

[txgal]

She didn't compete 5 long enough to qualify for state (she scored out of it at a USAG meet very early--no qualifier, no state meet...she has qualified for state every other season). Her score at the L5 meet was a 38.10 AA, 9.5 vault, 9.4 bars, 9.75 beam, and 9.45 floor (with a dislocated finger less than 2 weeks before the meet). I'm concerned that competing 6 with the same skills as 5 would not be productive for her; likewise, competing 6 using 7 skills doesn't seem quite right either. I'm not forcing the issue with her coach--just wondering why she would have a sudden change of heart after telling the girls they would compete 7.

I'm not very good at this technology stuff, but I'll get some videos of her practices and try to upload them with a working link. Thanks for all the input!

 

[Jenny]

How did she place at state the last few years?

 

[profmom]

Polishing skills is never a waste of time, and if she has elite dreams, she'd better get used to it now! DS came in seventh at states (in a pretty competitive state) his first year at L5, but I was still astounded at how much he learned and how much he improved over the course of his second year at L5, even though they didn't do much uptraining during the year. Now that he has the fundamentals really solid, he's taking off and doing some great stuff in the gym.

But if you can get some videos of her giants, kip cast handstands, and giant flyaways, the coaches should be able to tell you if L7 makes sense for her. We haven't talked about the other events, but I assume she also has a high, perfectly straight layout? (Judges around here aren't shy about not giving credit for a layout that's piked or whippy.) And how well is she connecting her walkover-walkover or walkover-back handspring on beam? Some judges are pretty picky about the connection -- DD competed the walkover-walkover this year due to some fear issues, and at two meets didn't get credit when even her beam coach, who isn't shy about telling it like she sees it, thought she should have.

You could also just ask your coaches where they see the dividing line between 6 and 7. We may be posting endlessly about bars, but if what they really care about is a connected BWO-BHS on beam, then we are all wasting our time!

 

[wallflower]

She didn't compete 5 long enough to qualify for state (she scored out of it at a USAG meet very early--no qualifier, no state meet...she has qualified for state every other season). Her score at the L5 meet was a 38.10 AA, 9.5 vault, 9.4 bars, 9.75 beam, and 9.45 floor (with a dislocated finger less than 2 weeks before the meet). I'm concerned that competing 6 with the same skills as 5 would not be productive for her; likewise, competing 6 using 7 skills doesn't seem quite right either. I'm not forcing the issue with her coach--just wondering why she would have a sudden change of heart after telling the girls they would compete 7.

I'm not very good at this technology stuff, but I'll get some videos of her practices and try to upload them with a working link. Thanks for all the input!

I was talking about level 4. As I recall she did not qualify to level 4 state back in the fall. You started a thread about it.

And not to burst your bubble, but don't get too excited about scores at compulsory meets designed for score out in May.

 

[Seeker]

I'm concerned that competing 6 with the same skills as 5 would not be productive for her; likewise, competing 6 using 7 skills doesn't seem quite right either. I'm not forcing the issue with her coach--just wondering why she would have a sudden change of heart after telling the girls they would compete 7.

There is a wide range of skills competed in both L6 and L7 -- WIDE. Your DD's coach may have not changed her plan about what skills she is planning on having your daughter compete at all...she may just believe that she'll have a better season competitively as a Level 6. Trust me, you don't want to go thru a whole season where she's competing L7 in the youngest age group and doing the skills pretty well, because she will get slaughtered at meets. Pretty well doesn't cut it. Bars and beam need to be SOLID if you have any hope of standing on a podium or even getting a medal.

The biggest jump in the judging is what folks have already mentioned here -- bars and beam are much more challenging at these levels. While the skills on bars may be "similar" in L5/L6/L7 (but they can be wildly different too, depending on how the routine is constructed and what skills are included), the criteria used to judge them is progressively harder for each level. Angle deductions will kill you if you're not consistently getting to HS and above horizontal on free hips (and this is tricky to see). There was a lot of confusion about the angle deductions in L6 versus L7 this year because it was new, but I believe they are lesser in L6 and this may be a better fit for your daughter. The other biggie is beam and connection values for acro series. There are pretty strict guidelines about what would receive credit so that could also be an area where L6 may be a better choice (no connection required).

I have to believe that any coach that was willing to let your daughter score out of L5 is not sandbagging her....she's trying to do the right thing based on all the information that she has at this time. Keep in mind that many of those score out meets are notorious for handing out elevated scores, so doing one meet at L5 may not be a good litmus test of how she would have fared throughout a whole season. How did she do in L4 score wise? If she was getting high 37's and 38's, then the 38.1 she received at the L5 meet is probably a pretty fair score. If she was scoring lower than that throughout the L4 season, then I'd be very careful in assessing where she's at based on one L5 meet. The judging/deduction requirements are much more strict at the optional level, so if it were me, I would not push L7 if your DD's coach doesn't think it is the right choice. A season full of disappointing meet results won't be good for anyone. As long as she's continuing to train and improve on all events, then she's doing what she needs to do. Just take a step back and let the coaches do their job.

Good luck to your daughter.

 

[gg_bug]

This is good information. Thanks to all. My DD will repeat Lv 6 this coming season- 8 years old. This help understand possible reasons.

 

[SignHere]

I will say, my DD skipped old Level 6 and new Level 6. Did Level 7 2 years ago as a 9 year old turning 10 with giants that she had gotten just before states and placed in only 1 meet. Super tough on a 9 year old who was used to winning/placing/ being a super star.

For various reasons, I moved her to a new gym - and the new coaches said she wasn't ready to move to Level 8 and she should repeat Level 7. So she did a second year of 7. Better year, and she scored/placed better.

Now - she's still NOT QUITE ready for 8 (consistency on beam is a big problem, according to her coaches). So she and her coaches decided for her to repeat 7 again as 11 year old.

That was a super hard decision for her to make. I think it would have been a LOT easier on her ego if she hadn't skipped levels, and had just moved up through the levels.