WAG Elite Gym Contracts

[Deleted member D3987]

The one year agreements we've signed had to do with conduct and payment of meet fees for the contracted season. The agreements were between the parents and the club. If our gymnast leaves during season, we are still responsible for paying any outstanding meet fees, which may include actual entry fees if refunds cannot be obtained and coaching fees since they were calculated with my gymnast included in the total. We were not responsible for outstanding tuition payments after the notice period.

However, I've seen several gymnasts leave right before or during season and not pay these fees. As far as these contracts with parents go, they are only enforceable to the point that the owner is willing to try and collect. If you are owed a few hundred dollars, is it worth the time and resources to try and collect through the court system? I think most owners would say no.

this is the norm. ^^^

 

[Jimbound]

Clients do not always leave based on personal preferences. Sometimes it is one gym encroaching or stealing coaches, instructors, class members, etc., from other gyms by enticing them in both scrupulous and unscrupulous manners. Sometimes money is used to induce other gym members to transfer. This can happen at competitions, grocery stores, public and private academic schools, etc. A contract may attempt to circumvent the loss of investment a gym makes to win and keep clientele both students and staff. However, a better way would be to simply regulate gyms so that gym hopping is controlled and mitigated. If a contract as suggested by this thread is plausible then regulation is also feasible being a more organized and standardized method. A gym should always be compensated when someone defaults to another provider. Do you not understand that a lost customer or employee translates into lost revenue and investment? Something needs to be done about it. Contracts at will is at best a barnyard free-for-all when individual gyms decide on their own how to draw up a contract. Instead it should be regulated and controlled. No gym should suffer a total loss but the method and parameters should be spelled out. Just saying.

 

[gasrgoose]

Instead it should be regulated and controlled. No gym should suffer a total loss but the method and parameters should be spelled out. Just saying.

I couldn't disagree with this statement more strongly. But it would never happen here anyway!

 

[bookworm]

. A gym should always be compensated when someone defaults to another provider. Do you not understand that a lost customer or employee translates into lost revenue and investment? Something needs to be done about it.

Jimbound , I'm not sure what island you're living on but that will never happen here....and yes, we understand that a "lost customer or employee translates into lost revenue and investment" but the "something that needs to be done about it " is that you need to make your product better so it doesn't happen ...and not imprison your gymnasts or employees with draconian tactics....

 

[flippin out]

Jimbound , I'm not sure what island you're living on but that will never happen here....and yes, we understand that a "lost customer or employee translates into lost revenue and investment" but the "something that needs to be done about it " is that you need to make your product better so it doesn't happen ...and not imprison your gymnasts or employees with draconian tactics....

Perfectly said! As someone who has had to switch their high level gymnast I couldn't agree more. If the previous gym had a facility, equipment and coaching capable of handling the training of a high level gymnast then I would not have switched her gyms. If owner would have shown any interest in upgrading their facility and equipment (making it safer to train) then there would've been no need to gym hop.

And there is no way I would've signed a contract locking me in to monetary penalties at the new gym. First off a new gym is a trial (to see if it's a good fit and it works for the athlete and the coaches both).
After a trial period, I would have no problem with a *season commitment*. BUT Why should I bring in a new high level gymnast and agree to give them a 1 yr notice if at the end of the season it doesn't work out? Tell them in may that the following may we will leave? No way! That's a recipe for disaster for all involved, and no way in hell I'd pay a years worth of penalties either. If you leave during season then yes, responsible for the meet fees that are nonrefundable,, etc. But that's it.

My suggestion is make the product (program) better so that the next person wants to purchase it and that others don't see a need to leave! That being said, you can't make everyone happy all the time and there will still be hoppers, but that is free enterprise learn to love it, good and bad.

 

[Jimbound]

Hmm... a contract is OK but regulation is out of the question? Me thinks I read intellectual hypocrisy between the lines here. In no way does compensation to the victim limit the ability of anyone to switch gyms. Also, the receiving gym may be the one that foots the bill. All instructors, coaches, class members, team members, administrative staff, etc., who are registered with the governing body may submit to transfer to another facility. However, the move comes with a price. Either the breaching party pays that price or the receiving facility pays the compensation as stated in the charter everyone agrees to follow when they join the organization. It's quite simple. The higher your rank, the longer your term, hence the more you are worth should you leave. Let's start a motion to implement this solution to an age old dilemma of gym hopping.

 

[cbifoja]

I can't figure out if Jimbound is serious or just trolling for reactions. The ideas are pretty outside of the way American business runs.

 

[HoldThePhone]

I'd be finding a new sport for my DD if JimBound had his way.

 

[lovemygymnast]

If the original gym coaching was actually working for the gymnast and the gymnast left, maybe I could see a penalty like we have in that we will still continue to pay for 1 year. But if the coaching and gym is not helping the gymnast to progress, then who is the victim?? The gymnast!! The gym deserves no compensation in that scenario. I completely agree that making your product or service better would keep your gymnasts progressing and therefore, staying at your gym. We are in a situation where we are at a fairly new gym. We are lucky to have good coaches who have a great relationship with my DD and all of the kids they coach. My problem would be if my DD gets to L9-10 or to the point of going elite...this gym has had no elite girls and only 1 L9 & L10. We love where we are, we love the girls, families and coaches. Who knows if my DD will make it to those levels, at this point? But if she did, I'd have to seriously consider a gym switch for her to be successful. That's not mine or my DD's fault but also shouldn't make our gym "the victim". If they want to coach to that level, they must provide the coaching necessary and then there would be no reason to leave.

 

[flippin out]

If the original gym coaching was actually working for the gymnast and the gymnast left, maybe I could see a penalty like we have in that we will still continue to pay for 1 year. But if the coaching and gym is not helping the gymnast to progress, then who is the victim?? The gymnast!! The gym deserves no compensation in that scenario. I completely agree that making your product or service better would keep .

But who is to determine whether that program was working? By all looks, when I pulled my dd out if last gym it was working, as in she had had a successful season, did really great at regionals. Problem was that there was no potential to progress there (facility was just not capable of handling a higher level....no pit, 20yr old equipment, no experienced coach for the next level). Coaches agreed and were understanding about a need to switch, BUT owner would argue to this day that their gym was capable and we were just not loyal. So.....would my dd have to fail in order to get out of contract? Would she have to "show" that gym was incompetent to handle her training??? That's a slippery slope. I had no wish to have my kid hurt training something the gym "thought" she could do there when in reality the facility couldn't allow. --and def not just to "prove " that I was right about the old gym.

 

[lovemygymnast]

But who is to determine whether that program was working? By all looks, when I pulled my dd out if last gym it was working, as in she had had a successful season, did really great at regionals. Problem was that there was no potential to progress there (facility was just not capable of handling a higher level....no pit, 20yr old equipment, no experienced coach for the next level). Coaches agreed and were understanding about a need to switch, BUT owner would argue to this day that their gym was capable and we were just not loyal. So.....would my dd have to fail in order to get out of contract? Would she have to "show" that gym was incompetent to handle her training??? That's a slippery slope. I had no wish to have my kid hurt training something the gym "thought" she could do there when in reality the facility couldn't allow. --and def not just to "prove " that I was right about the old gym.

I'm sorry, I actually was referring to Jimbound and was thinking in the future about my own DD's experience. My point was that if the gym was successfully coaching and progressing my DD, and the facility was capable and I decided to leave, then yes, I should pay as long as contracted. But if it's about safety and failure to progress successfully, then no compensation because "the victim" would be my DD. So, I'm disagreeing with the "governing body" awarding compensation to the original gym. So sorry for the miscommunication. It was early when I posted. I don't disagree with your decision at all! You as a parent have an obligation to do what you feel is right for your child and that includes any decision to further her advancement in this sport. In my case, my DD is only L4, so I'm saying hypothetically, if she advances to L9-10, we would really have to consider moving to another gym at that point if they haven't developed more high level optionals or elites at that point. Hope that makes sense!

 

[Gymkateer]

I can't figure out if Jimbound is serious or just trolling for reactions. The ideas are pretty outside of the way American business runs.

Maybe he's really from Columbia?

I don't know how it is in Columbia but for some countries the contracts the gymnasts have stipulate that they are to be paid. I don't really understand how it works. Here is an old article that talks about some Brazilian gymnasts losing their contracts because the elite program at their club was axed. The article says they will be without income. If there is a similar arrangement for top clubs in Columbia, Jimbound is probably thinking more along the lines of professional talent contracts. In that situation, if a club brings an athlete along to a high level and then the athlete leaves, it would hurt the club.

Actually, even in an amateur situation it can still hurt the club. Above, lovemygymnast mentions that if her gymnast gets to a high level she would consider moving her from a club that they love to a club that has more high level athletes. This type of thing is what keeps some good clubs at the status of "feeder" gym. A club's reputation is only so good as its gymnasts are. Lots of clubs that have good facilities and coaching lose out when their best gymnasts leave to go to a new club just because it has celebrity status.

That's life. It sucks for the club but if a family is paying for training, the gymnast should be able to leave at will.

 

[lovemygymnast]

I didn't mean I would switch gyms IF she got to that level, only that so far, they haven't had any to surpass L9-10. If she can get what she needs here, she will stay throughout her gym career (who knows if she'll go that far??). They have not lost any of their optional girls so far, so it's always possible that they will have higher level optionals over the next few years as my DD progresses.

 

[flippin out]

I'm sorry, I actually was referring to Jimbound and was thinking in the future about my own DD's experience. My point was that if the gym was successfully coaching and progressing my DD, and the facility was capable and I decided to leave, then yes, I should pay as long as contracted. But if it's about safety and failure to progress successfully, then no compensation because "the victim" would be my DD. So, I'm disagreeing with the "governing body" awarding compensation to the original gym. So sorry for the miscommunication. It was early when I posted. I don't disagree with your decision at all! You as a parent have an obligation to do what you feel is right for your child and that includes any decision to further her advancement in this sport. In my case, my DD is only L4, so I'm saying hypothetically, if she advances to L9-10, we would really have to consider moving to another gym at that point if they haven't developed more high level optionals or elites at that point. Hope that makes sense!

Yes but in your post you stated that you could see that if the gym coaching is working and the gymnast still leaves than that would be grounds to pay a yrs worth of penalties. I'm saying that that is a slippery slope. Who is to determine if it's working? In our case it would have "appeared" to be working, and the owner would argue to the grave it was working....but for us, for growth in skills (bumping the difficulty) and safety factors it clearly was not working. I'm just saying that for the gym owner it was working, and so who is to decide if a gymnast family would have to pay a huge fine for seeking training elsewhere? I would not agree to paying a years worth of fines just because the owner was delusional. Just saying! What is wrong with good old free enterprise?

 

[Jimbound]

In a regulated world the parent element is taken out of the loop. Likewise so is the gym owner and the gymnast and the coach and the instructor, and clerical staff, etc., taken out of the loop. The governing body determines parameters and USA Gymnastics backs them up. In other words if you are a new student taking a class at xyz gym and suddenly after a month you wish to opt for the gym across town then the receiving gym or the student would have to pay a certain remuneration to the loosing party. This would in effect mitigate and control the nemesis of gym hopping. Across the board as stipulated by the governing body and backed by USA Gymnastics there would be a fee schedule set up for all contingencies including exceptions and sliding scales. Gyms which sign up for the program under the governing body under the auspices of USA Gymnastics would agree to abide by formatted parameters over which no one has a say. You simply follow the law as written. A one year coach is worth lets say $1000 at level 1. $2000 at level 2, and so on. If you are a ten year elite level coach as defined by the governing body then you may be worth $50,ooo to the losing party. Tit for tat. No discussions. Do not pass go. It's simply a fee that controls and regulates gym hopping. If anyone has a better idea other than pandering to the old sentiment of demanding better quality from the gym which has never mitigated or addressed this issue head on, then please expound. Gym hopping is a huge problem and contracts are private attempts to deal with it. There has to be a better way. There is. Regulation.

 

[bookworm]

If anyone has a better idea other than pandering to the old sentiment of demanding better quality from the gym which has never mitigated or addressed this issue head on, then please expound. Gym hopping is a huge problem and contracts are private attempts to deal with it. There has to be a better way. There is. Regulation.

You are missing the issue...."demanding better quality from the gym" IS the issue, ands that's not "pandering" .....gym hopping as you refer to it is what we call here "consumer choice" ....make your product better , and the consumer will choose you, continue with a lousy product, and they will choose elsewhere....

 

[Jimbound]

That's exactly what I'm talking about, bookworm. You did exactly what I told you not to do. So predictable. Telling a gym to be better at what they do does nothing to solve the loss a gym suffers from gym hopping. As often as not bookworm, a gym loses a coach or a long term gymnast to another gym which is equal or less than theirs. Contracts or the act of contracting gymnasts, coaches, and personnel is not about the issue of shortcomings by the provider of services. Instead it is rather a guarantee of recompense for the investment made by the gym. However, there is a better way. Regulation. Consumer choice should be regulated. If it helps then the governing body can decide that the gym receiving the hopper must pay the fee at lower levels. This way the class member never feels the tort for having caused financial chaos at the initial gym. We can work this out. But I need you to look at this from a gym owners perspective...

 

[curlymop]

In a regulated world the parent element is taken out of the loop. Likewise so is the gym owner and the gymnast and the coach and the instructor, and clerical staff, etc., taken out of the loop. The governing body determines parameters and USA Gymnastics backs them up. In other words if you are a new student taking a class at xyz gym and suddenly after a month you wish to opt for the gym across town then the receiving gym or the student would have to pay a certain remuneration to the loosing party. This would in effect mitigate and control the nemesis of gym hopping. Across the board as stipulated by the governing body and backed by USA Gymnastics there would be a fee schedule set up for all contingencies including exceptions and sliding scales. Gyms which sign up for the program under the governing body under the auspices of USA Gymnastics would agree to abide by formatted parameters over which no one has a say. You simply follow the law as written. A one year coach is worth lets say $1000 at level 1. $2000 at level 2, and so on. If you are a ten year elite level coach as defined by the governing body then you may be worth $50,ooo to the losing party. Tit for tat. No discussions. Do not pass go. It's simply a fee that controls and regulates gym hopping. If anyone has a better idea other than pandering to the old sentiment of demanding better quality from the gym which has never mitigated or addressed this issue head on, then please expound. Gym hopping is a huge problem and contracts are private attempts to deal with it. There has to be a better way. There is. Regulation.

I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. At least with elite gymnasts I can see the argument for some sort of contract, but now you're talking about beginners? I signed my kids up for a once a week rec class thinking it would be a fun way to get exercise. We could have easily guided them into other sports, and that's exactly what would have happened if I'd been told I would have to pay a penalty if I didn't think the coaching was worth the money I was paying. I'm happy with our gym, but I've known other people who moved their kids to a different gym because the other gym was a better fit for them. Under the system you're describing, both gyms would probably go out of business.

 

[cbifoja]

Regulated choice? A bit oxymoronic......

 

[bookworm]

. Consumer choice should be regulated. ...

No, just no....