WAG Gabby Douglas and Chow split again

[Terry]

Small claims court is a civil action not a criminal one. It's not considered theft, it's a debt. Jail time for willful nonpayment would be extremely rare. Mostly reserved for criminal fines or child support. This is not the 1600s with debtors prisons. That is not done in the U.S., does not happen.

"Theft of professional services" is a civil cause of action. Different states have different statutes, but in some states "Theft of professional services" provides a civil remedy for nonpayment of this kind of fee. In this context it does not implicate any criminal charge.

 

[Midwestmommy]

One of the standards in most states that must be present (and provable) for "theft of professional services" to apply is that the service was obtained using deception, threats or fraudulent means. Not likely the case here, just my opinion but filing this might be an abuse of our legal system and taxpayer money.

I know that if I fell more than a month or two behind my daughter would be off the team. How were huge amounts of past due amounts piled up? As a paying customer I would not be happy to know I am paying more to float a "favorite" who doesn't pay for many months. I know my daughter would not get special treatment.

BTW debtors prisons were outlawed in the US a few centuries ago. There are some narrow exceptions that have crept in where there is a clear ability to pay, with child support, etc. And of course the Dept of Treasury has easy access to many tools to collect taxes that business owners can't use (or at least don't have such easy access to).

 

[Terry]

One of the standards in most states that must be present (and provable) for "theft of professional services" to apply is that the service was obtained using deception, threats or fraudulent means. Not likely the case here, just my opinion but filing this might be an abuse of our legal system and taxpayer money.

right. I am not familiar so much with these statutes. How about a simple breach of contract claim? Makes more sense to me.

 

[Muddlethru]

Small claims court is a civil action not a criminal one. It's not considered theft, it's a debt. Jail time for willful nonpayment would be extremely rare. Mostly reserved for criminal fines or child support. This is not the 1600s with debtors prisons. That is not done in the U.S., does not happen.

I was a little puzzled by dunno's reply as well. I am quite versed in civil litigation which is what this type dispute would fall under. Civil litigation is a legal dispute between two or more parties that seek monetary damages or specific performance rather than criminal sanctions. The civil litigation process is more complex than what dunno states. One must exhaust all remedies in collecting on a judgement and I have yet to come across a case where jail time was a remedy or punishment. The cause of action mentioned is not a cause of action permissible in Small Claims or even Municipal Court that is why I thought there may be another venue for this particular lawsuit. The only other venue would be what midwestmommy states which is within our criminal justice system. But I still think this is a civil matter and not a criminal offense.

 

[Muddlethru]

right. I am not familiar so much with these statutes. How about a simple breach of contract claim? Makes more sense to me.

Breach of contract is what I would file a claim for. You can add interest in the initial complaint (don't know what the legal rate is. When I was active in this it was 10%). Once you've obtained judgement, you can add court fees, service of process fees and interest can accumulate until judgment is paid. If they don't pay and you know where they work, you can garnish their wages; if you know their bank accounts, you can levy on their bank accounts. You can also attach their real estate. A judgement shows on their credit and many creditors will not extend any credit until the judgment is fullfilled.

 

[profmom]

Keep in mind that this is all state law, and state laws vary quite a bit -- some states may make it easier to do this through small claims court with a theft of services mechanism than others. Your mileage may vary quite a bit depending on where you are. In some jurisdictions, the Bearden v. Georgia's "wilful refusal to pay" principle combined with judges who exercise their discretion to the furthest reaches possible has led to what a few organizations have labeled the revival of debtors' prisons. I'm not well versed in this, but I would guess that breach of contract would be the way to go in my state and that no one need ever fear imprisonment for failure to pay an outstanding gym bill. Elsewhere, please consult your local practicing attorney.

 

[Terry]

Breach of contract is what I would file a claim for. You can add interest in the initial complaint (don't know what the legal rate is. When I was active in this it was 10%). Once you've obtained judgement, you can add court fees, service of process fees and interest can accumulate until judgment is paid. If they don't pay and you know where they work, you can garnish their wages; if you know their bank accounts, you can levy on their bank accounts. You can also attach their real estate. A judgement shows on their credit and many creditors will not extend any credit until the judgment is fullfilled.

right. I think though that judges in small claims courts, where they are used to pro se litigants, would just take a claim like this and change the cause of action to whatever is appropriate for that state and for facts in the claim. Again, I think these non payment of fee cases would all fall under breach of contract. But its not like you will be thrown out of small claims court for using the wrong cause of action --
I do not know what the limit is in turns of damages in small claims court these days. Someone else might know but I would guess it is around $5,000.00

 

[Muddlethru]

I believe most small claims have a maximum claim amount of $5,000 but there are still a few that go up to $10,000. If it exceeds $5,000 or $10,000, you can file in the Municipal Courts where claims go up to $25,000.

It is actually a pretty simple process once you know your way around small claims and municipal court. Most defendants in this type lawsuits rarely answer the complaint because they don't really have a defense except they just don't want to pay. While judgement is easily obtained, recovery is still an issue. Often times, we agree on a payment plan. I think having a claim of at least $1,000 is advised to file a small claims lawsuit. Filing fees, service of process fees, garnishment/levies/attachment fees will run $300 - 500 on the average.

P.S. I would not be too sure the judge will not throw a case out because a plaintiff used a wrong cause of action. A case can and may be likely thrown out. You may be advised to file another claim with the appropriate cause of action. What plaintiffs tend to do is file multiple causes of actions (i.e, theft of professional services along side breach of contract). The judge is more likely to dismiss a cause of action but not change it. But make no mistake, a judge will dismiss a case if you use a wrong cause of action even if you are appearing in pro per.

 

[Iwannabemargo]

why am I suddenly reminded of Judge Judy

 

[Terry]

P.S. I would not be too sure the judge will not throw a case out because a plaintiff used a wrong cause of action. A case can and may be likely thrown out. You may be advised to file another claim with the appropriate cause of action. What plaintiffs tend to do is file multiple causes of actions (i.e, theft of professional services along side breach of contract). The judge is more likely to dismiss a cause of action but not change it. But make no mistake, a judge will dismiss a case if you use a wrong cause of action.[/QUOTE]
I really did not think they would do that, but it sounds like you have more knowledge about the small claims procedure than I do. I actually have a friend who is a law professor who went to small claims court on some personal issue he had and the judge told him he had listed the wrong cause of action and then corrected it for him. He was humliated but it was pretty funny.

So I guess the prudent thing to do would be list breach of contract and then , as i think you are suggesting, you can add other claims which the judge may ior may not dismiss, but you will at least be left with the breach of contract.

For recovery in the case of judgment -- there are discovery mechanisms but better yet just get the defendant's employment info before you file. Then wages can be garnished to satisfy the judgement if necessary.

oh yeah -- and then there is always the option to chalk it up to the cost of doing business and just let it slide.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Small claims court is a civil action not a criminal one. It's not considered theft, it's a debt. Jail time for willful nonpayment would be extremely rare. Mostly reserved for criminal fines or child support. This is not the 1600s with debtors prisons. That is not done in the U.S., does not happen.

in civil small claims court it is called theft of professional services and debt both. you file this theft with your local PD. they come and make out a report. you then file in civil small claims court with complaint attached. and this is in most states. please don't tell me something that it's not when i have already done this countless times over the years. and i have helped other club owners as well across the US.

you then must show the court where/how the theft occurred. THIS is why you must have good records and notices. if you prove your claim, the court awards you tuition owed PLUS damages. in my last claim i was awarded 4 times the amount of tuition owed AND they were given 90 days to pay. if i was NOT paid, i could then prosecute in criminal court and then fill out papers in the same small claims court to have their paychecks garnished and with interest. or, they could be prosecuted in criminal court and risk further possible punitive action. they ALWAYS pay up with that threat. it's really quite simple.

i live in the United States.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

"Theft of professional services" is a civil cause of action. Different states have different statutes, but in some states "Theft of professional services" provides a civil remedy for nonpayment of this kind of fee. In this context it does not implicate any criminal charge.

exactly! please see my post as to HOW it's done.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

I was a little puzzled by dunno's reply as well. I am quite versed in civil litigation which is what this type dispute would fall under. Civil litigation is a legal dispute between two or more parties that seek monetary damages or specific performance rather than criminal sanctions. The civil litigation process is more complex than what dunno states. One must exhaust all remedies in collecting on a judgement and I have yet to come across a case where jail time was a remedy or punishment. The cause of action mentioned is not a cause of action permissible in Small Claims or even Municipal Court that is why I thought there may be another venue for this particular lawsuit. The only other venue would be what midwestmommy states which is within our criminal justice system. But I still think this is a civil matter and not a criminal offense.

and of course it's a bit more complex if you don't have the experience doing this. i agree with you. i have it down perfectly. i'm in small claims court at least twice a year collecting money owed us from belligerent people who thought they could take advantage of us. it is a civil matter and could become a criminal matter if they don't pay up. honestly, this is all quite simple as far as i'm concerned.

and last time filing the necessary paperwork was approx $300. i have had any costs associated with filing paid to me in the "damages". so, it just cost me my time.

and i have done the exact same thing when they bounce checks and won't pay up plus the bank fees associated with the trampolining check. then i get them for bouncing and theft of professional services! it's good for damages depending on what Judge you get where i'm at.

i thought i better throw this in also. they usually pay up BEFORE they must appear in criminal court based on the complaint that i filed with my local PD. a prosecutor has never denied these complaints. theft is theft. and they are more motivated when it is over $100.

 

[Orangesoda]

I'm late to the party. Can someone give me a link to the Gabby goings on? What's her story? I will now consult Wikipedia....

 

[Deleted member D3987]

she's at Buckeye in Columbus, Ohio for the short term anyway.

 

[Terry]

in civil small claims court it is called theft of professional services and debt both. you file this theft with your local PD. they come and make out a report. you then file in civil small claims court with complaint attached. and this is in most states. please don't tell me something that it's not when i have already done this countless times over the years. and i have helped other club owners as well across the US.

you then must show the court where/how the theft occurred. THIS is why you must have good records and notices. if you prove your claim, the court awards you tuition owed PLUS damages. in my last claim i was awarded 4 times the amount of tuition owed AND they were given 90 days to pay. if i was NOT paid, i could then prosecute in criminal court and then fill out papers in the same small claims court to have their paychecks garnished and with interest. or, they could be prosecuted in criminal court and risk further possible punitive action. they ALWAYS pay up with that threat. it's really quite simple.

i live in the United States.

Out of curiosity I just took a look at the small claims procedure in my own state. There is no cause of action for "theft of professional services" but there is a "Failure to pay for services rendered" claim which should work. Also "breach of contract" or "breach of agreement" which should work. It will be slightly different in different states. But its really not difficult to file a small claims case -- just go down to the court and they will give you the forms and instructions you need. Dunno is 100% correct when he warns that keeping records and having a "paper trail" is key. Because you will need to prove that they owe you the money.

 

[motigymnasticsmom]

why am I suddenly reminded of Judge Judy

oh yes, lets call in Judge Judy!

 

[Midwestmommy]

Dunno, you are narrowing down which state you are from (I have three guesses and would bet my fav pair of shoes that it is one of those three--but I won't post my guesses). In my state you would never get four times what is owed. And you would have no action for "theft." And your burden of proof for proving they had the means to pay but refused is extremely tough, few try and fewer could prevail here (with the exception of child support or when a government entity wants the money). You definitely don't live in my state. And I don't think anyone has been put in jail, ever, in my state for nonpayment of kids sports fees.

Bounced checks of course are a different story altogether.

The whole conversation makes me chuckle a bit, given the entitlement attitude in our culture where half the parents are getting a free ride at the other half's expense for so many sports and activities. Yep, sure bugged me when the hockey booster club waived all the annual fees for a family, and dad (divorced) bought $300 of nice sweatshirts from me at the booster club table the next day. When others who paid their way (including some kids who I knew did it themselves with summer jobs) had to opt for the cheap T-shirt. Yes, that really happened. And yes I realize there could be a lot more to the story. But still... Well, I didn't say anything but it did bug me.
.
Anyway, don't get me wrong, people should pay their bills. But the club owner who floats a favorite athlete who is getting the most attention and best coaching at the club is also taking a financial risk to do that (in anticipation of some payoff I guess), and depending on how long it went on, I have decreasing amounts of sympathy. Because my kid loves gymnastics, I have paid thousands and thousands, and she would be out on her rear if I didn't pay. And I don't mean this in an offensive way, but the clubby elite insiders in this sport gathering in TX would not look twice at my beautiful, bright, fun, hardworking daughter. Yet... Because she may be president one day, or a famous author, or a leading scientist. Then you might notice. Probably not though, and that's OK.

 

[Midwestmommy]

Yep Judge Judy, a guilty pleasure. They don't pay me to be pretty, they pay me to be smart. But, she definitely makes my attorney friends cringe (her application of the law isn't even close to real courts). Highly entertaining though.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Dunno, you are narrowing down which state you are from (I have three guesses and would bet my fav pair of shoes that it is one of those three--but I won't post my guesses). In my state you would never get four times what is owed. And you would have no action for "theft." And your burden of proof for proving they had the means to pay but refused is extremely tough, few try and fewer could prevail here (with the exception of child support or when a government entity wants the money). You definitely don't live in my state. And I don't think anyone has been put in jail, ever, in my state for nonpayment of kids sports fees.

Bounced checks of course are a different story altogether.

The whole conversation makes me chuckle a bit, given the entitlement attitude in our culture where half the parents are getting a free ride at the other half's expense for so many sports and activities. Yep, sure bugged me when the hockey booster club waived all the annual fees for a family, and dad (divorced) bought $300 of nice sweatshirts from me at the booster club table the next day. When others who paid their way (including some kids who I knew did it themselves with summer jobs) had to opt for the cheap T-shirt. Yes, that really happened. And yes I realize there could be a lot more to the story. But still... Well, I didn't say anything but it did bug me.
.
Anyway, don't get me wrong, people should pay their bills. But the club owner who floats a favorite athlete who is getting the most attention and best coaching at the club is also taking a financial risk to do that (in anticipation of some payoff I guess), and depending on how long it went on, I have decreasing amounts of sympathy. Because my kid loves gymnastics, I have paid thousands and thousands, and she would be out on her rear if I didn't pay. And I don't mean this in an offensive way, but the clubby elite insiders in this sport gathering in TX would not look twice at my beautiful, bright, fun, hardworking daughter. Yet... Because she may be president one day, or a famous author, or a leading scientist. Then you might notice. Probably not though, and that's OK.

the 1st is what i'm talking about. the 2nd is NOT what i'm talking about. we agree on the 1st for sure.

and more of what i'm talking about IS due to bounced checks. repeat offenders. and then they book. i just don't tolerate it.