WAG Grace McCallum?…… (US Olympic Team Discussion)

[Ginger]

C'mon man, we do, best team score championships? Skinner. Best team score trials? Skinner. Best team score olympic qualifiers? Skinner. If you still think Skinner would have underperformed compared to Grace at finals, then I guess that's your opinion.

Its not about changing the outcome of this singular competition, its about a coach making the best decision to put the best team forward given what we know at that time of team selection. Now that we have the results we should be able to objectively look back and say if it was the right decision.

I know its not about winning at all costs, but its also not about rainbows and unicorns, lets just have fun. So why short our team by making poor coaching decisions?

C'mon man, we do, best team score championships? Skinner. Best team score trials? Skinner. Best team score olympic qualifiers? Skinner.
Now I don't know whether you are so clueless, or if you flat out lie.
Because the 'best team scores' from championship and trials were based on assumption the 4th team member will only do vault and floor. If you went with AA, voila - the best scoring team was with Grace.

And, as for your sacred number 0.233 - you are comparing the incomparable. Not only because of all the pressure on Grace (and none on Skinner) on bars and beam, but also Skinner benefited from going last or second from last, whereas Grace had the disadvantage of being first up.
You probably don't know that, but there is a reason why the strongest/presumably best scoring performer always goes last in the team lineup.

 

[Eleven sol]

I wonder how much Tom and team were aware of Simone’s mental blocks. She has looked shaky at the Trials and in qualifications. Must be hard not to have her family too as support. Could be a reason why they put Skinner in the specialist spot where she could medal and Grace on the team as a consistent all arounder , especially if she ends up competing in the event final instead of Simone. All just speculation but if they’d known about mental health struggles, they wouldn’t have released that information to the public. I’m so worried about Simone... I hope she is okay. She’s such a fighter and so brave.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

C'mon man, we do, best team score championships? Skinner. Best team score trials? Skinner. Best team score olympic qualifiers? Skinner. If you still think Skinner would have underperformed compared to Grace at finals, then I guess that's your opinion.

I actually started the thread. It’s not about under or over performing.

They got silver. Because of Simone. Had they gotten gold it would of been because of Simone

So why short our team by making poor coaching decisions?

“The team” wasn’t shorted. Either lady and the outcome is the same.

The only difference is who should of been there.

 

[gym_dad32608]

C'mon man, we do, best team score championships? Skinner. Best team score trials? Skinner. Best team score olympic qualifiers? Skinner.
Now I don't know whether you are so clueless, or if you flat out lie.
Because the 'best team scores' from championship and trials were based on assumption the 4th team member will only do vault and floor. If you went with AA, voila - the best scoring team was with Grace.

And, as for your sacred number 0.233 - you are comparing the incomparable. Not only because of all the pressure on Grace (and none on Skinner) on bars and beam, but also Skinner benefited from going last or second from last, whereas Grace had the disadvantage of being first up.
You probably don't know that, but there is a reason why the strongest/presumably best scoring performer always goes last in the team lineup.

Um, I think you are confused. In a 3 up 3 count 4 member team, you put your best 3 up for each event that would yield the highest team score after all 4 events. It doesn't matter if one of the 4 only competes one, two or three events. Lets say hypothetically you have an ungodly vaulter, who consistently scores 2 points higher than any other gymnast. During trials they might have ended up 10th place, but given the combinations of the other 3 members, if that one person was on the team just to do vault, then the team score would be higher than any other combination of 4 gymnasts.

 

[gym_dad32608]

I actually started the thread. It’s not about under or over performing.

They got silver. Because of Simone. Had they gotten gold it would of been because of Simone

“The team” wasn’t shorted. Either lady and the outcome is the same.

The only difference is who should of been there.

Sigh, does anyone actually read posts. I am not saying that it would have changed the outcome, never said that. Nor am I saying Skinner is a better gymnast than Grace. Final time, the point is about putting together a team to score the highest possible team score. At the time of selecting the team. Of course we could not know what would happen to Simone or Jordan struggling at quals. The debate on this thread was that Grace was the better all-arounder and ultimately yield better results at Olympics versus going with the best combination of members that maximizes team score. Since both athletes ended up going to the Olympics and both were judged by the same sets of judges, we had about as best as possible a natural occurring experiment. In this natural experiment, Skinner would have yielded the best outcome as measured by total team score. That is all. I don't understand why some people cant admit it or feel some personal offense or that I am belittling Grace. Those are the numbers, those are the facts, to deny that and explain it away because a missed element or going first versus last, etc. is to deny what really happened.

Now sure, you can still say, "I believe it was the best move because I would still want an all-arounder to have that flexibility" and that is a reasonable position. But you have to also admit, in this scenario, with these sets of athletes, the better outcome would have been to have Skinner on the team from an overall team scoring standpoint.

 

[Ginger]

Um, I think you are confused. In a 3 up 3 count 4 member team, you put your best 3 up for each event that would yield the highest team score after all 4 events. It doesn't matter if one of the 4 only competes one, two or three events. Lets say hypothetically you have an ungodly vaulter, who consistently scores 2 points higher than any other gymnast. During trials they might have ended up 10th place, but given the combinations of the other 3 members, if that one person was on the team just to do vault, then the team score would be higher than any other combination of 4 gymnasts.

We had 4 gymnasts today after vault? So we could have decided which best three we put up for bars, beam and floor?
That's news to me.

 

[txgymfan]

“ Final time,……” Promise?

gym_dad 32608, You have repeated your position over and over again. We get it. We know your opinion. I won’t repeat it here. As a staff member on CB I read every post to make sure everyone is following the rules. Most of our members are great. I do not have the option to skip your posts. If you are going to continue to post please contribute new ideas.

 

[gym_dad32608]

“ Final time,……” Promise?

gym_dad 32608, You have repeated your position over and over again. We get it. We know your opinion. I won’t repeat it here. As a staff member on CB I read every post to make sure everyone is following the rules. Most of our members are great. I do not have the option to skip your posts. If you are going to continue to post please contribute new ideas.

I have to say this is extremely disappointing from a board administrator and staff member. The people that have been repeating the opposite position over and over again are different?! The administrator feels the need to interject a snarky comment at a board user who has been respectful in his posts even though they might be unpopular?! A board administrator feels the need to single out a board member because they either don't agree or are annoyed for some reason?! If you feel the topic has been played out, then say so and lock the thread, no need to single out a user based upon your personal position on the topic. If you want a robust message board then you want to foster an environment that allows for respectful discussions of alternative views. You don't want silence or isolate individuals who might have alternative viewpoints as long as they interact respectfully. Finally, could you tell me then what makes a great member? Its obvious that you feel I am not one, and in all seriousness, I do find this comment hurtful. I have never called anyone names or suggested they are less than, my only fault has been taking an unpopular position. I thought I was being a good member by stimulating discussion.

 

[Eleven sol]

Your position is that Mykayla mathematically based on her performances at recent meets may have contributed 2 tenths more to the team score and deserved the team spot. I think you are arguing that the process wasn’t transparent because Mykala did not get the team spot after achieving the higher average score.

I think others have noted that more goes into selection of the last 2 team spots than an average of performances including make-up of the team, consistency, experience, most recent performance, performance with international judges, and health of the athletes. We probably don’t have all the information that went into the selection process. I guess that feels shady to you. Noted. I think what matters is how the gymnasts feel they were treated. We will find that out over time I’m sure. Others are also pointing out that the team result would not have been different based on two tenths - it’s a team event, not an individual one, so that’s an important point as well.

Someone brought up Morgan Hurd being angry at Tom. Based on Golden, that girl is a beast. BUT she was very injured and probably should not have been competing. It was wise and arguably kind to exclude her from Trials so that she did not permanently injure herself.

I think everyone has heard the point about the two tenths and the lack of transparency. I think others are of the opinion the process is more nuanced than a straight average and furthermore, is described as more nuanced in official documents related to the selection process... so even though Tom said he would look at the data to determine the highest scoring team prior to the selection, he was well within his rights to ignore it.

So let me ask you this, Tokyo results aside, do you think it is beneficial for the USA team coaches to have some latitude in choosing those last two team positions or are you in favor of a straight average score in choosing future Olympic gymnastics teams?

 

[gym_dad32608]

Your position is that Mykayla mathematically based on her performances at recent meets may have contributed 2 tenths more to the team score and deserved the team spot. I think you are arguing that the process wasn’t transparent because Mykala did not get the team spot after achieving the higher average score.

I think others have noted that more goes into selection of the last 2 team spots than an average of performances including make-up of the team, consistency, experience, most recent performance, performance with international judges, and health of the athletes. We probably don’t have all the information that went into the selection process. I guess that feels shady to you. Noted. I think what matters is how the gymnasts feel they were treated. We will find that out over time I’m sure. Others are also pointing out that the team result would not have been different based on two tenths - it’s a team event, not an individual one, so that’s an important point as well.

Someone brought up Morgan Hurd being angry at Tom. Based on Golden, that girl is a beast. BUT she was very injured and probably should not have been competing. It was wise and arguably kind to exclude her from Trials so that she did not permanently injure herself.

I think everyone has heard the point about the two tenths and the lack of transparency. I think others are of the opinion the process is more nuanced than a straight average and furthermore, is described as more nuanced in official documents related to the selection process... so even though Tom said he would look at the data to determine the highest scoring team prior to the selection, he was well within his rights to ignore it.

So let me ask you this, Tokyo results aside, do you think it is beneficial for the USA team coaches to have some latitude in choosing those last two team positions or are you in favor of a straight average score in choosing future Olympic gymnastics teams?

Great post! Thanks for the question! Although I am unsure if I should answer lest I be accused of not being a good member and not contributing something new (sarcasm intended).

Tokyo results aside, I do think its beneficial for USA team coaches to have the latitude to choose team positions based upon factors other than straight-up highest team score. I do however believe that highest team score should be the most important criteria in deciding the team and THEN weighing if those intangible other factors are greater in ignoring the highest team score. I do also believe it should be as transparent as reasonably possible. It really is my crux of disagreement with how Tom has handled things. First he said highest team score, then not so much, etc. I just struggle with how strongly some folks do not seem to recognize going with the highest team score is a valid approach. Appreciate your question

 

[GYM0M]

you don’t know that. And even assuming it is true . A few tenths or hundredths doesn’t change a thing. No Simone makes them a silver medal team. 85.6 or .9 or .3

I disagree. That is what happened, but those girls were absolutely capable of winning gold. It would have to have been a phenomenal day for all of them, but not impossible. Had they hit, it would have made for a much closer race.

 

[Lucia]

Your position is that Mykayla mathematically based on her performances at recent meets may have contributed 2 tenths more to the team score and deserved the team spot. I think you are arguing that the process wasn’t transparent because Mykala did not get the team spot after achieving the higher average score.

I think others have noted that more goes into selection of the last 2 team spots than an average of performances including make-up of the team, consistency, experience, most recent performance, performance with international judges, and health of the athletes. We probably don’t have all the information that went into the selection process. I guess that feels shady to you. Noted. I think what matters is how the gymnasts feel they were treated. We will find that out over time I’m sure. Others are also pointing out that the team result would not have been different based on two tenths - it’s a team event, not an individual one, so that’s an important point as well.

Someone brought up Morgan Hurd being angry at Tom. Based on Golden, that girl is a beast. BUT she was very injured and probably should not have been competing. It was wise and arguably kind to exclude her from Trials so that she did not permanently injure herself.

I think everyone has heard the point about the two tenths and the lack of transparency. I think others are of the opinion the process is more nuanced than a straight average and furthermore, is described as more nuanced in official documents related to the selection process... so even though Tom said he would look at the data to determine the highest scoring team prior to the selection, he was well within his rights to ignore it.

So let me ask you this, Tokyo results aside, do you think it is beneficial for the USA team coaches to have some latitude in choosing those last two team positions or are you in favor of a straight average score in choosing future Olympic gymnastics teams?

You just did such a good job summarizing and presenting the various perspectives, without being unjust to any view point. This is very articulate, thank you

 

[Beks]

Personally I think there is a stronger argument for Jade than three is for Skinner or Wong. The should have sent Skinner to the World Cup events to so she could have that spot and they would have had best shot.

I think all things being equal it’s not a bad idea to go with the solid All Arounder. Wong was to inconsistent and I wouldn’t take her.

However it is not wrong at all to consider someone who can perhaps bring a big number one one two events. To a Team Finals situation.

For example Kocian is an All Arounder and Marta wanted to protect her bars from injury so actually encouraged her to downgrade and not stress AA to much. But one of the reason she was favored over The other top bar worker is because worst case scenario Kocian could contribute in an emergency. I don’t think this is really cherry picking and unfair.

I don’t it’s wrong to say these are the top AA and the rest of the team is built around them.

As long as your transparent and everyone knows what you will absolutely use.

People keep on screaming about Grace but she outperformed Jordan it’s hard to know with team lot of hindsight not sure I would want Skinner on bars in team Finals

 

[JBS]

I just want to add... great do see so many "fans" here on ChalkBucket. Thank you all for your thoughts... that's what this place if for... good gymnastics discussion.