WAG Grace McCallum?…… (US Olympic Team Discussion)

[Ginger]

What you aren’t understanding is, it’s not always about math. It’s about looking ahead and running scenarios. I care ZERO about what Myk would have added in quals because it doesn’t matter. Enzyme matters is qualifying to finals, and having the Mac number in each final, and then how the team does tomorrow. That’s what I’m talking about. If Myk had been on the team, there would not have been the option to allow Chiles to not do bars or beam. THAT is the entire point of having Grace. If you can’t see that, I don’t know what else to say.

Yes. And also, was it not for the avoidable composition deduction on beam, Grace would beat Skinner by 0.267 (which wouldn't be enough to beat ROC still).
And also, Grace performed under pressure on the last 2 events, and she went first on both which added even more pressure. How Skinner performs under pressure was well seen on vault.

 

[Agymnast]

I'm not anti-Grace. I'm pro-math.

Well I'm not pro-math I pro-reality. And in reality Grace is doing AA tom as all her scores were counted in Quals. Somehow your maths didn't turn into reality!

 

[gym_dad32608]

Yes. And also, was it not for the avoidable composition deduction on beam, Grace would beat Skinner by 0.267 (which wouldn't be enough to beat ROC still).
And also, Grace performed under pressure on the last 2 events, and she went first on both which added even more pressure. How Skinner performs under pressure was well seen on vault.

Well I'm not pro-math I pro-reality. And in reality Grace is doing AA tom as all her scores were counted in Quals. Somehow your maths didn't turn into reality!

Except she did have a deduction, to wave it away is not reality. I am sure we could go down the list with all the gymnasts including Skinner and say "except she had this deduction....". The record books don't allow a little asterisk for "if only". And when putting together a team, its about how much does past performance predicts the future.

And the reason Grace is doing the all-around for the team final is not a validation of, I'll say, a Grace type gymnast versus a Skinner type gymnast (I don't really care about the particular gymnast). Tom actually made a coaching decision (yay to showing some nerves) to sit Jordan based upon quals performance. If Jordan didn't struggle the other day, I am fairly certain Grace would not be doing the all-around.

Finally, why throwing the shade at Skinner? A big difference talking about a gymnast's scoring versus talking about a gymnast's gymnastics.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

But Jordan did have a rough qualification and that’s why it was important to take a solid AAer like Grace who could fill in anywhere and is filling in anywhere. For the “math” people, go look at the E scores of Grace and MyKayla. MyKayla had a hit beam set and got obliterated on the E score. She can’t do a better beam than that. Grace on the other hand, had a fluke error on beam and lost dance credit. Grace’s execution scores are higher with errors than MyKayla’s are with hit sets on every apparatus, which means her AA potential is higher. The US didn’t lose to Russia because MyKayla wasn’t on the main team, they lost because Simone wasn’t Simone today. I predict that tomorrow, Grace’s AA total will be higher than MyKayla’s was today because I don’t think there is anyway she kisses that dance credit again.

 

[Ginger]

Except she did have a deduction, to wave it away is not reality. I am sure we could go down the list with all the gymnasts including Skinner and say "except she had this deduction....". The record books don't allow a little asterisk for "if only". And when putting together a team, its about how much does past performance predicts the future.

And the reason Grace is doing the all-around for the team final is not a validation of, I'll say, a Grace type gymnast versus a Skinner type gymnast (I don't really care about the particular gymnast). Tom actually made a coaching decision (yay to showing some nerves) to sit Jordan based upon quals performance. If Jordan didn't struggle the other day, I am fairly certain Grace would not be doing the all-around.

Finally, why throwing the shade at Skinner? A big difference talking about a gymnast's scoring versus talking about a gymnast's gymnastics.

Yes, Grace had a 0.5 composition deduction, and the reality is that this deduction isn't likely to happen again, while Mykayla's execution deductions would be quaranteed to happen again.

As for Jordan's quals performance... it was not just her bars and beam. She didn't get the expected E score on her first two events, either. Jordan earned her spot on the team fair and square, being the most consistent US gymnast all season long. But one of the concerns was that she didn't have any international experience (or very little), so there was a question how she would handle the pressure, and how would the international judges receive her. That was also one of the reasons why they needed a solid AA backup, so Grace was chosen over Mykayla. It proved to be a right decision, no matter how hard you push your 'Mykayla should be on the main team' narrative.

And last but not least... talking about a gymnast's gymnastics is not 'throwing shade'. Mykayla is going for big skills with sloppy execution, and I suspect even she knows that, as she made some 'working on execution' kind of video just before Tokyo. If you look at the two young Russian gymnasts - they don't have huge D (except of bars), but they benefit from clean execution. This approach seems to be rewarded in Tokyo, and Grace is the same kind of gymnast.

 

[TumbleTimes4]

And for everyone screaming that Tom wasn’t clear on what was needed to make the team, the gymnast he spent the most time with pre trials was MyKayla, so she have had a better idea than anyone and more direction from him than anyone.

 

[Pineapple_Lump]

And for those saying Jade should have been on the team... well she didnt show her potential by trials so you can't blame tom for what he did.

Actually this brings up another discussion. Jade knew she was going, so she didn't have to peak early to make the team. So perhaps without the pressure of being 100% ready before the pinnacle event, she was able to cruise and really perform her best at the Olympics so far.

 

[Eleven sol]

Yes, Grace had a 0.5 composition deduction, and the reality is that this deduction isn't likely to happen again, while Mykayla's execution deductions would be quaranteed to happen again.

As for Jordan's quals performance... it was not just her bars and beam. She didn't get the expected E score on her first two events, either. Jordan earned her spot on the team fair and square, being the most consistent US gymnast all season long. But one of the concerns was that she didn't have any international experience (or very little), so there was a question how she would handle the pressure, and how would the international judges receive her. That was also one of the reasons why they needed a solid AA backup, so Grace was chosen over Mykayla. It proved to be a right decision, no matter how hard you push your 'Mykayla should be on the main team' narrative.

And last but not least... talking about a gymnast's gymnastics is not 'throwing shade'. Mykayla is going for big skills with sloppy execution, and I suspect even she knows that, as she made some 'working on execution' kind of video just before Tokyo. If you look at the two young Russian gymnasts - they don't have huge D (except of bars), but they benefit from clean execution. This approach seems to be rewarded in Tokyo, and Grace is the same kind of gymnast.

Wow, thanks for this explanation. Makes sense. And yes I’m noticing clean is getting rewarded over difficulty.

 

[JBS]

So… anyone not have Simone on your original team… because you would have actually been correct.

Looks like everyone is wrong.

 

[Eleven sol]

That was absolutely insane. Go Grace! She did a fantastic job. They held it together as best they could. The drama of the Olympic Games, no doubt.

 

[Lucia]

Honestly, I'm so proud of everyone. That's a big change up for the team to suddenly rearrange their plans with Simone out. I truly believe they rose to the occasion. And Russia did amazing. Both teams had mistakes, and both should be proud. I woke my children up early to watch it with me, and I want them to take away memories of healthy competition and sportsmanship. I really hope the Team USA can be proud of how they were resilient in the face of adversity, and not be hammered by the side-line experts and social media. This should be what the Olympics is about.

 

[kendo348]

I am so proud! Of Suni and Jordan and Grace for stepping up, of Simone for prioritizing her well-being as a person over a gymnast in the face of so much pressure, and placing faith in her teammates. Also proud of the better part of the public for responding with support and grace instead of backlash (I don’t know that we have to go back that many years to reach a time when the response would have been different.)

My kids got up early to watch with me… so many good teaching opportunities from that competition. Best silver medal ever.

 

[gym_dad32608]

Wow, a challenging and disappointing outcome.

First of all, let me say that I am proud of the team and how the girls responded to such an adverse situation. They finally showed a positive level of emotion and fight to deliver for each other. All of the gymnasts did great.

Second, please, this is not a discussion about who is the better gymnast (Skinner or Grace), at least in my case. This is a discussion about a coach (Tom) making decisions to put the best team forward to win gold. It's a fan-based discussion, like any sport, coaches make decisions, fans get to dissect and criticize.

And yes, with Simone out, it is solely an academic discussion because it really would not have mattered if Grace or Skinner were on the team. Nonetheless, I think it worthwhile to review and discuss now that the results are in.

So, to summarize the gist of the 10 + pages of comments. The crux is should Tom have selected the team based upon which combination of athletes yielded the highest team score given what we knew at the time of selection versus taking a solid all-arounder who while does not yield an optimal team score, could give some flexibility if issues come up (no one was thinking Simone).

The majority of folks seemed to fall on the side of the all-arounder with the general feeling is that she would perform better in international competition, was cleaner and would score better when she got to the Olympics.

What we saw, what we know is that this was not the case. From championships through the Olympics, there was not one competition in which a Grace team performed better than a Skinner team. Even on the team finals, Skinner's qualification AA score (55.398) was higher than Grace's (55.166). Many people we very certain that Grace would make up 0.6 on beam from quals because of missing dance element on beam. That did not come to pass.

Again, for me, I have nothing against Grace nor am I a Skinner fan, my point has always been the better coaching decision would be to choose the highest scoring team make up UNLESS there was some strong compelling reason not to. I did not and do not feel that a vague confidence that a strong all-arounder and even vaguer confidence that she would magically score higher in Olympics was compelling enough to ignore all the previous data points. I believe now that the results have played out I have proven correct.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

I did not and do not feel that a vague confidence that a strong all-arounder and even vaguer confidence that she would magically score higher in Olympics was compelling enough to ignore all the previous data points. I believe now that the results have played out I have proven correct.

Based on what actually happened. Looking at the overall scores. Skinner or McCallum having a good day the result is silver.

 

[CarlssonW]

Hello! I have a question and I can’t find an answer anywhere so thought I’d try here. Why are the scores in this olympics so much lower than Rio? Correct me if I’m wrong, but ROC’s score wouldn’t even have qualified them for the team final last year. Surely all 8 teams in Rio wouldn’t have beaten all 8 times today?!

Is this because scoring has changed or because the teams were so much better last time? Thanks in advance - I have a feeling it’s going to be a complicated answer!

 

[Ginger]

Hello! I have a question and I can’t find an answer anywhere so thought I’d try here. Why are the scores in this olympics so much lower than Rio? Correct me if I’m wrong, but ROC’s score wouldn’t even have qualified them for the team final last year. Surely all 8 teams in Rio wouldn’t have beaten all 8 times today?!

Is this because scoring has changed or because the teams were so much better last time? Thanks in advance - I have a feeling it’s going to be a complicated answer!

Code of points changed. For example, Amanar vault had 6.3 D value in Rio but went down to 5.8.

 

[CarlssonW]

Code of points changed. For example, Amanar vault had 6.3 D value in Rio but went down to 5.8.

So it’s as simple as that! That makes sense. Thank you for responding

 

[gym_dad32608]

Based on what actually happened. Looking at the overall scores. Skinner or McCallum having a good day the result is silver.

You are missing the point. Of course, it would not have mattered and I said that.

And yes, with Simone out, it is solely an academic discussion because it really would not have mattered if Grace or Skinner were on the team. Nonetheless, I think it worthwhile to review and discuss now that the results are in.

The point is what started this whole thread was a question of why Grace was chosen on the team over Skinner. I and a few other posters advocated that this was the incorrect choice based upon scores and making the highest potential scoring team, while others advocated the intangibles of having a flexible all-arounder and "cleaner" gymnast (whatever that means). Now that we have the benefits of results, I am merely pointing out, keeping all things constant, the highest-scoring team still would have had Skinner on it.

 

[Deleted member 18037]

all things constant, the highest-scoring team still would have had Skinner on it.

you don’t know that. And even assuming it is true . A few tenths or hundredths doesn’t change a thing. No Simone makes them a silver medal team. 85.6 or .9 or .3

 

[gym_dad32608]

you don’t know that.

C'mon man, we do, best team score championships? Skinner. Best team score trials? Skinner. Best team score olympic qualifiers? Skinner. If you still think Skinner would have underperformed compared to Grace at finals, then I guess that's your opinion.

And even assuming it is true . A few tenths or hundredths doesn’t change a thing.

Its not about changing the outcome of this singular competition, its about a coach making the best decision to put the best team forward given what we know at that time of team selection. Now that we have the results we should be able to objectively look back and say if it was the right decision.

I know its not about winning at all costs, but its also not about rainbows and unicorns, lets just have fun. So why short our team by making poor coaching decisions?