WAG Gymnastics recruiting services

[Really]

The Ivies report that they hold the same standards as they do with US citizens. However, because there is a limit on the number of foreign students admitted, the admission rate for foreign students is significantly lower than the admission rate of US citizens. All they state is you must score the highest grades and ACT/SAT, take challenging course work, and be academically at the top to at least pass the threshold. I know Yale (and I am sure Harvard, Princeton, Stanford-I know Stanford is not an Ivy. But a few years ago, it's admission rate was lower than Harvard. Now, they are both at 5%) have commonly rejected students who have perfect SAT/ACT and are at the top of their class. I also know, even if you are wicked smart, you must have something else other than just grades and scores; something to set you apart from all the wicked smart kids.

My daughter's grades and scores above would likely not be admitted if it were not for the letter of support she received from the coach.

I'm posting here from my perspective as an alumna of an Ivy League school who was accepted as an international student on academic merit (my daughter is the athlete, not me! ) What they don't tell you on the websites and school literature is that for international students, it is NOT a needs-blind admissions process. You MUST submit documentation WITH your application that you can pay for not just tuition, but also room and board/cost of living expenditures at the school. You will not be allowed to work in the US during your course of study; although international students can be granted work permits to work at the university (in labs, libraries, dining halls) these jobs pay nowhere near enough to support you through college. This doesn't mean that you or your family need to have the money in a lump sum in the bank account (although this is certainly acceptable evidence to the Ivies of your ability to pay, and for many international students that I knew, was the preferred way of demonstrating ability to pay); many of the international students I know demonstrated their ability to pay via documentation of grants and scholarships secured from their home countries' governments. This would entail knowing how to work the bureaucracy of both your own home government's educational system as well as the US's (and, of course, having a home government with money of its own to spend on its young citizens!) So for foreign applicants to the Ivies, I don't know how much you can count on getting any of the sports scholarships unless you were Olympic level for your home country, and if you were an Olympic level gymnast, you're probably going to a D1 school, not an Ivy.

 

[Muddlethru]

, and if you were an Olympic level gymnast, you're probably going to a D1 school, not an Ivy.

That’s what I would have assumed. Colleges in the US give in-state students more breaks in tuition and scholarships. So I can’t see Ivies or even other schools providing funding to foreign students that might otherwise go to US citizens. But I really do not know any details on foreign students studying here.

Lastly, FYI, Ivy League does compete in Division 1!

 

[inthecar]

One more question - anyone have experience with the Ivy Leagues? How do they work? I heard it's different - are they interested in girls early as well or do you have to have an established good grades good SAT/ACT before you even bother with them?

They don't recruit as early as other D1s. Penn, I think is the only exception, as I think they offer spots earlier than summer/senior year. There must be some academic vetting that goes on because all athletes have to be within a certain range. You can google Ivy Academic Index and plug in your dd's numbers. By mid point of sophomore year, the GPA is pretty established, and if they have taken a challenging course load with AP/honors level classes they will likely be "in the range" academically. SAT/ACT scores are extremely important. I'm not sure about mid-1300s being ok as that was not our experience. It may depend on the athlete. It's best to ask the coach directly what SAT score is needed, rather than assume your dd is ok with a score in the mid 1300s range. No later than summer before junior year, begin to establish a relationship with coaches with meet video updates and keep them posted on academic progress. I doubt there are former L8s on any current ivy roster, or even L9s at this point. It's competitive athletically, but you have to pass through admissions first.

 

[Really]

That’s what I would have assumed. Colleges in the US give in-state students more breaks in tuition and scholarships. So I can’t see Ivies or even other schools providing funding to foreign students that might otherwise go to US citizens. But I really do not know any details on foreign students studying here.

Lastly, FYI, Ivy League does compete in Division 1!

Heh. I stand corrected. I merely meant, "a school with a more competitive gymnastics team" as the true Ivies (and I'm not including Stanford here, because it's not actually an Ivy League school) historically have not had as competitive teams.

 

[Muddlethru]

The recruiter whose presentation I attended suggested that grades and academics were very important to the Ivy League schools, maybe even more than the level of gymnastics. She said the Ivies would look at applications from L8 gymnasts who were vault or bars specialists (high demand events) if they had the grades and test scores to support the application. Again, it's a matter of doing your research and finding a good fit for your kid.

I’m sorry. I need to correct you once again on this. Not sure where you are getting all your information. But no D1 NCAA Gymnastics coach will look at a L8 gymnast and seriously consider them as a recruit; not even the Ivies. First, a reputable recruiting company would never say this. Second, no matter how strong the L8 gymnast is on bars and vault, it does not automatically follow that they will be able to do L10 bars and vault strong enough to be recruited. Coaches don’t look at gymnasts until they have some L10 skills. They don’t have to necessarily be a level 10 but the coaches need to know, they can do at least the minimal Level 10 skills. D3s will recruit L9 and the lowest ranked D3 team has recruited L8. But I’m pretty sure a Level 8 was never recruited in a Division 1 team including the Ivies.

 

[Really]

I’m perfectly happy to be contradicted, 4theloveofsports! Just reporting to the CB community what I was told by this recruiter. It’s obviously up to the listener to take such hope-stoking statements made by someone trying to sell you a service with a grain of salt. I was pretty surprised to hear it myself. But for what it’s worth, she was actually a reputable recruiter, which is why I mentioned it at all. She did indicate that the L8 specialist would have to have a competitive (L10) routine in her area of specialty, and factors would have to align just right for the application to be considered. Happy to PM you her name but it makes no difference to me if you believe it or not.

 

[bookworm]

I agree with 4theloveofsports, there is no way a "level 8 specialist" would be a recruiting prospect for a D1 team....if the level 8 is already "a specialist", then her skills , on the whole, will never reach level 10 as she's no longer training them.

Not sure what reputable recruiter gave this account, but I find it not credible at all....heck, really good 10s, who place at JOs aren't all snatched up so I can't see a level 8 displacing them...unless of course there is a personal relationship with the NCAA coach that trumps the gymnast's actual skill level , such as the NCAA coach being a relative/friend of the club coach and decides to take on the level 8...other than that, not seeing it.

 

[Really]

I agree with 4theloveofsports, there is no way a "level 8 specialist" would be a recruiting prospect for a D1 team....if the level 8 is already "a specialist", then her skills , on the whole, will never reach level 10 as she's no longer training them.

Not sure what reputable recruiter gave this account, but I find it not credible at all....heck, really good 10s, who place at JOs aren't all snatched up so I can't see a level 8 displacing them...unless of course there is a personal relationship with the NCAA coach that trumps the gymnast's actual skill level , such as the NCAA coach being a relative/friend of the club coach and decides to take on the level 8...other than that, not seeing it.

There was a roomful of parents this reputable recruiter said it to. We were all pretty surprised about it too. I just figured there must have been other factors besides the gymnastics, such as the gymnast being a legacy kid (kid of alumni).

 

[duyetanh]

I know of a situation where a level 9 went to a division one school and did quite well. So yes it can happen. But no it is not common

 

[suebee]

U Penn seems to be the only one that recruits or verbally commits early. By early, up to two years ahead. They already have 5 committed for 2020 and 1 for 2021.

My child is way too young to be thinking about this, but I have not seen or heard gymnasts publically verbally commit to Penn early, like they do to other schools. Does Penn not allow them to post their verbal commitment on social media, etc?

I have heard about academic indexes for Ivy League sports and I assume this applies to gymnastics as well. Can anyone confirm? I wonder if this also explains why you can see variation in academic stats of recruited athletes, which is what I am seeing a little bit of in the other posts, like how high your SAT needs to be.

I have a friend whose son is an Ivy League athlete (obviously not gymnastics). He went to a very competitive academic high school and he was definitely not an academic standout at his high school, although I think he was a decent student overall, just not compared to the kids at his high school. He definitely was not in the top 10% of his high school class academically and did not take the most academically rigorous classes at his school, with few to no APs. But he is fantastic in his sport and his dad went to the school as well, so he is a legacy.

In any case, his mom told me that the coach told them that the coach needs to keep the averages of his recruits’ test scores and grades at a certain level (academic index) and since this kid’s were acceptable but not great, by supporting him in the application process, the coach would need to support some very highly academically qualified kids to essentially balance him out, even if they were much worse athletically. The coach was not sure if he was willing to do that or not, and said whether he could support this kid would depend upon what the academic stats were of the other recruits he could get. The kid ended up there so it obviously worked out for him, but can anyone confirm this is a factor in gymnastics recruiting for Ivies as well? This may explain how not all recruits have really high test scores but some recruits may need that to receive support by an Ivy.

 

[Aussie_coach]

Internationals students won’t nessesarily be able to apply to US colleges even if they have outstanding academic results in 12th grade. Because the US requires a wider variety of subjects.

Here in my state in Australia the only subjects that need to be continued in 11th and 12th Grade are English and Maths. Students can drop all sciences, social sciences, PE etc after 10th grade and can drop foreign languages after 8th grade.

We have had problems in the past with Australian gymnasts trying to obtain college scholarships and have been rejected because they can specialise too early here.

 

[Muddlethru]

My child is way too young to be thinking about this, but I have not seen or heard gymnasts publically verbally commit to Penn early, like they do to other schools. Does Penn not allow them to post their verbal commitment on social media, etc?

I have heard about academic indexes for Ivy League sports and I assume this applies to gymnastics as well. Can anyone confirm? I wonder if this also explains why you can see variation in academic stats of recruited athletes, which is what I am seeing a little bit of in the other posts, like how high your SAT needs to be.

I have a friend whose son is an Ivy League athlete (obviously not gymnastics). He went to a very competitive academic high school and he was definitely not an academic standout at his high school, although I think he was a decent student overall, just not compared to the kids at his high school. He definitely was not in the top 10% of his high school class academically and did not take the most academically rigorous classes at his school, with few to no APs. But he is fantastic in his sport and his dad went to the school as well, so he is a legacy.

In any case, his mom told me that the coach told them that the coach needs to keep the averages of his recruits’ test scores and grades at a certain level (academic index) and since this kid’s were acceptable but not great, by supporting him in the application process, the coach would need to support some very highly academically qualified kids to essentially balance him out, even if they were much worse athletically. The coach was not sure if he was willing to do that or not, and said whether he could support this kid would depend upon what the academic stats were of the other recruits he could get. The kid ended up there so it obviously worked out for him, but can anyone confirm this is a factor in gymnastics recruiting for Ivies as well? This may explain how not all recruits have really high test scores but some recruits may need that to receive support by an Ivy.

It makes sense that the Ivies have to use some kind of formula in assessing recruited athletes. They assess all potential students and recruited athletes have to be within a certain standard deviation of the rest of the student body. Some form of Academic Index calculator is easily accessible online. I personally do not know if the Ivies use the AI. My husband played football for an Ivy and many of his close friends were recruited athletes. Coaches don't openly talk about the AI but many of our friends swear by it. I roughly calculated my daughter's grades and scores. We estimated the number she would need. It fell within what we thought was admissible and she was. From what I've been told, it could be like you say, each sport having a set average or we feel the school assigns a number depending on how much revenue the sport brings in. For instance, the football team may be given more leeway or a lower average than the gymnastics team. If we estimated my daughter would need a 220, a very competitive and desire able football player might get in with a 180. A regular student might need 235 to get in an Ivy. These are just numbers I made up. The AI is calculated using the GPA, test scores and it asks subject test scores as well. What I've stated above is what our circle of friends believe is used but I have absolutely no confirmation with college coaches. Thanks for bringing this up. I completely forgot about it.

 

[gymgal]

I’m sorry. I need to correct you once again on this. Not sure where you are getting all your information. But no D1 NCAA Gymnastics coach will look at a L8 gymnast and seriously consider them as a recruit; not even the Ivies. First, a reputable recruiting company would never say this. Second, no matter how strong the L8 gymnast is on bars and vault, it does not automatically follow that they will be able to do L10 bars and vault strong enough to be recruited. Coaches don’t look at gymnasts until they have some L10 skills. They don’t have to necessarily be a level 10 but the coaches need to know, they can do at least the minimal Level 10 skills. D3s will recruit L9 and the lowest ranked D3 team has recruited L8. But I’m pretty sure a Level 8 was never recruited in a Division 1 team including the Ivies.

I agree with 4theloveofsports, there is no way a "level 8 specialist" would be a recruiting prospect for a D1 team....if the level 8 is already "a specialist", then her skills , on the whole, will never reach level 10 as she's no longer training them.

Not sure what reputable recruiter gave this account, but I find it not credible at all....heck, really good 10s, who place at JOs aren't all snatched up so I can't see a level 8 displacing them...unless of course there is a personal relationship with the NCAA coach that trumps the gymnast's actual skill level , such as the NCAA coach being a relative/friend of the club coach and decides to take on the level 8...other than that, not seeing it.

I took Really's comment on the recruiter to mean gymnasts who may have L9/10 skills in one or two events but not in the others and therefore are competing L8, not that the gymnast was already a specialist at L8. Still, I would think it would be rare for even the lowest ranked Ivy to actively recruit such a gymnast, though there was more of a possibility 7-10 years ago. Today, there are just too many good all around L10s for a college coach to choose from. There's no need to dip into L9, let alone L8. However, I could see a situation where the gymnast continues to pursue a lower ranked team, is accepted into college on her own academic merit and then joins the team. Whether she ever competes is another story.

Also, while a coach may be looking for a gymnast to fill one or two rotations, they are not going to choose a 1-2 event specialist over another gymnast who can fill in the other events as well.

 

[suebee]

It makes sense that the Ivies have to use some kind of formula in assessing recruited athletes. They assess all potential students and recruited athletes have to be within a certain standard deviation of the rest of the student body. Some form of Academic Index calculator is easily accessible online. I personally do not know if the Ivies use the AI. My husband played football for an Ivy and many of his close friends were recruited athletes. Coaches don't openly talk about the AI but many of our friends swear by it. I roughly calculated my daughter's grades and scores. We estimated the number she would need. It fell within what we thought was admissible and she was. From what I've been told, it could be like you say, each sport having a set average or we feel the school assigns a number depending on how much revenue the sport brings in. For instance, the football team may be given more leeway or a lower average than the gymnastics team. If we estimated my daughter would need a 220, a very competitive and desire able football player might get in with a 180. A regular student might need 235 to get in an Ivy. These are just numbers I made up. The AI is calculated using the GPA, test scores and it asks subject test scores as well. What I've stated above is what our circle of friends believe is used but I have absolutely no confirmation with college coaches. Thanks for bringing this up. I completely forgot about it.

Thanks. What I have heard, but would like confirmation for, if anyone has personal experience, is that any Ivy as a school must have the average AI of all their recruited athletes within some range, which depends on the school’s overall average AI (without athletes).

But then in addition to that, each team needs their recruits’ AI to average at some number, and this number may be different for different sports. What I’ve generally heard is that this team AI may be lower for a sport like football but higher for another sport.

What that may mean, though, is that if there is an athlete the coach really wants, but that athelte’s AI is on the lower side, but can be overcome with all the other recruited athletes for that year having very high AI, then the coach may need to give support to these high AI kids, even though their athletic contributions to the team may not be so great. Apparently this is what happened with my friend’s son. This was also difficult for him because had he had a higher AI, the coach would have committed to him sooner. But because friend’s son had a lower AI, the coach wanted to see what other kinds of recruits he’d be able to get if he restricted them to all having high AIs to balance out my friend’s son, as he was not willing to take weak athletes with high AIs to counter my friend’s son, but was willing to take weaker recruits with higher AIs to get my friend’s son, and that’s what he ultimately did.

It makes it all so confusing as there are so many potential variables. But if this is the case, I can see how in theory maybe a L9 athlete who has a super high AI might be able to receive an Ivy coach’s support for a spot on the team if that coach also wants a very high level gymnast whose AI isn’t so great. Maybe.

 

[Really]

I took Really's comment on the recruiter to mean gymnasts who may have L9/10 skills in one or two events but not in the others and therefore are competing L8, not that the gymnast was already a specialist at L8. Still, I would think it would be rare for even the lowest ranked Ivy to actively recruit such a gymnast, though there was more of a possibility 7-10 years ago. Today, there are just too many good all around L10s for a college coach to choose from. There's no need to dip into L9, let alone L8. However, I could see a situation where the gymnast continues to pursue a lower ranked team, is accepted into college on her own academic merit and then joins the team. Whether she ever competes is another story.

Also, while a coach may be looking for a gymnast to fill one or two rotations, they are not going to choose a 1-2 event specialist over another gymnast who can fill in the other events as well.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant, Gymgal. The recruiter is obviously trying to sell her services and it goes back to the original topic/focus of the OP, which we seem to have deviated from and lost sight of at this point: "Are College Recruiting services worth it?" The answer is, probably not for the top-of-the-heap athletes. But if your kid is a "long shot" applicant, like a L8 with a couple of really strong events and solid academics and other application factors, and wants to continue competing in college, then, as per the recruiter (again, not ME, because I openly admit I know nothing about the process, which is why I was sitting in the info session to begin with), you might do well to look into a professional recruiting service like hers. She was not claiming that a L8 who is "just good on bars or vault" would be a shoo-in to make a line up on a top team, by any means. Just that you'd be the sort of candidate who might want to consider a recruiting service.

 

[LMV]

I'm posting here from my perspective as an alumna of an Ivy League school who was accepted as an international student on academic merit (my daughter is the athlete, not me! ) What they don't tell you on the websites and school literature is that for international students, it is NOT a needs-blind admissions process. You MUST submit documentation WITH your application that you can pay for not just tuition, but also room and board/cost of living expenditures at the school. You will not be allowed to work in the US during your course of study; although international students can be granted work permits to work at the university (in labs, libraries, dining halls) these jobs pay nowhere near enough to support you through college. This doesn't mean that you or your family need to have the money in a lump sum in the bank account (although this is certainly acceptable evidence to the Ivies of your ability to pay, and for many international students that I knew, was the preferred way of demonstrating ability to pay); many of the international students I know demonstrated their ability to pay via documentation of grants and scholarships secured from their home countries' governments. This would entail knowing how to work the bureaucracy of both your own home government's educational system as well as the US's (and, of course, having a home government with money of its own to spend on its young citizens!) So for foreign applicants to the Ivies, I don't know how much you can count on getting any of the sports scholarships unless you were Olympic level for your home country, and if you were an Olympic level gymnast, you're probably going to a D1 school, not an Ivy.

1.)Ivy League athletic programs compete in D1
2.)Ivies can not offer any merit based scholarships. There are not athletic or academic scholarships at these schools.

 

[Really]

1.)Ivy League athletic programs compete in D1
2.)Ivies can not offer any merit based scholarships. There are not athletic or academic scholarships at these schools.

I stand corrected on point #1 (have no idea who competes in D1, to be honest). But point #2? Technically, on paper, NO, Ivies don't, and I never claimed that they did, so not sure why you are quoting me. But they sure will point you to non-university based sources of funding if they are interested in your application. And if you are a motivated applicant in financial need, and have your own home government to provide funding, then the Ivy League school's will happily take your government's money as well as your family's, whether it's the US government or some other nation's.

 

[tomtnt]

Congratulations to your DD! I’m always happy to hear these stories of highly intelligent gymnasts who are able to manage both gym and school at high level.

Did your DD express interest in the IVY’s early on? When did she initially contact the coaches?

Hi, I'm a long time member who has quietly sat back and read since dd was a L4. CB has been a huge source of encouragement and information as my dd has made her way through the levels. Lots of ups and downs and it has been anything but easy.

I thought I could be of some help with regard to the ivies since dd just went through this process. Everything that has been posted has been our experience with the exception of SAT scores. They are looking for scores of 700+ or combined score of 1400+ (perhaps Yale is the exception). DD, a 2019 recruit was given a green light in July after a positive academic pre-read. She submitted transcript through junior year, all SAT scores, SAT subject scores, senior year schedule and high school profile. DD was told they could support 5 applications and if she was offered a spot, she would be required to apply ED (which is binding). She was also told that if she were to get in on her own that they would take her. There was no "soft support" either they were supporting her application or they weren't. Hope this helps!

 

[tomtnt]

Congratulations to your daughter! Quite the achievement. Since there are no scholarships, isn’t everyone a walkon? How many recruits can the coaches support? Was your DD also looking at non ivy programs at that point?

My daughter is committed to an Ivy. This is our experience.

It is hard for Ivies to recruit early because potential recruits have to be submitted for pre-reads before the coaches can continue with the recruiting process. U Penn seems to be the only one that recruits or verbally commits early. By early, up to two years ahead. They already have 5 committed for 2020 and 1 for 2021. Brown, Cornell and Yale seems to fill their teams a year before-summer year of seniors.

My daughter was submitted for pre-reads at three Ivies last July and was given the green light on all three a couple weeks later. She was invited to two official visits and offered a walk-on on a third. You do not get a letter of support on walk ons and you have to get in on your own. She's been injured pretty much the last five years. She has not had one gymnastics season injury-free. So can't say she is a high scoring gymnast. We never had a clear idea of what she is capable of though.

As far as what Ivies academic and score requirements, by the time my daughter graduates, she'll have 11 AP classes. She's in all honors and as of last semester has a cumulative weighted GPA of 100.3%. She bombed the ACT but did fine in the SAT. We had her take the SAT twice because we did not know what the Ivies would take. Her first set of scores were mid 1400s. She cracked 1500 on her second test but we didn't have to submit her second scores since we were told she passed the academic pre-read based on the lower SAT score. I believe several girls were given offers who were in the low 1300s. I know Yale only wanted a 1350 and my experience with Cornell is they've taken even lower than that. Brown and U Penn takes mid 1300s also.

 

[Muddlethru]

It makes it all so confusing as there are so many potential variables. But if this is the case, I can see how in theory maybe a L9 athlete who has a super high AI might be able to receive an Ivy coach’s support for a spot on the team if that coach also wants a very high level gymnast whose AI isn’t so great. Maybe.

Anything is possible I suppose. But I still can't see a Level 9, less likely a Level 8 getting recruited in Division 1 regardless of AI score. I've seen gymnast who've competed only one year at L10 get recruited. So they MAY have gotten the attention of coaches or they have even received offers while still competing Level 9. But by the time they were recruited, they competed at least one year at L10. Nonetheless, I think the AI is likely used in other sport but it does not seem relevant to NCAA gymnastics.