Gyms profiting off team and required parent involvement? Business discussion

[barney66]

I just don't understand how and why gyms do this. Where does the money go? I know it does not go to new equipment in our gym. Is our tuition not enough? Is this purely a money maker or is it necessary? Sounds like most parents feel it is unfair. So, why is it still going on. There has to be a logical explanation for gyms to warrant or require this of its parents.

i agree, this is crazy.. I do not understand how parents are ok with this. I work 2 jobs & my wife works 1. I have 2 kids 1 child in gymnastics & my gym charges us if you do not help, volunter, work or what ever they want to call it. Parents need to speak up.. I can barely afford gymnastics now I have to pay because i can't take off work to work for them.. I can see it now,, Hey boss i need off this weekend it's really important. I have to work at my kids gymnastics club otherwise I have to pay 100... You can't make this stuff up

 

[Deleted member D3987]

well folks, some of you know that i am a club owner and coach. the surveys say that none of us are getting rich. gym businesses are a perpetual & cavernous pit of bills and expenses and payroll. barney66, you have no reason to believe me other than my word is my word.

whether you run an in-house meet, or a meet off site with rental, it truly takes the support of an entire gym and their parents group to run a successful competition...and 1 where visiting gyms will want to return.

you can usually see where these funds go in a gym. gym equipment, entry fees, travel expenses, coaches fees etc; the conundrum you explain above is across the board for everyone. life is not fair, and as i have said before, as irreverent as it sounds, parents should have thought about all that is involved in having children BEFORE they have children. they too are a cavernous pit of bills and expenses and toilet paper and toothpaste.

the more money that a gym can reap from a competition should mean less money they ask for in the form of tuitions. the reason they would have you "pay $100" might be because that is the amount estimated that a parent would generate had they worked or profits made from the sales of homemade brownies and such which don't cost the club any money and the parent very little in time and cost. or $100 less that would have to be paid to an outside source for the same work.

whether it is a 300 hundred gymnast meet or a 3,000 gymnast meet (chicago style) there is just no way a competition can be pulled off with a gym staff of 5.

in the final analysis, a parent should receive something back in return for their volunteer involvement. how and what that is in your program should be made available to you via your parents club or the owners. and if they did not publish their policies up front and before you and your child were invited to the competitive team then you very well might have a point. i highly doubt this was the case. this is issue has been this way since the beginning of private clubs. and we didn't invent the method. it has been this way in other organizations forever.

and as far as "is our tuition not enough"? seriously? do the math on the hourly. then cross compare to other things like private music lessons, tennis, karate, figure skating, ice hockey, DAYCARE, BABYSITTING, etc; that "question" alone is shortsighted on the part of that poster when you consider all that is in involved in owning a gym club and what they bring to children.

and most of us club owners "can barely afford gymnastics" ourselves the past few months. you should count your blessings that your gym is there/open, and if the above is your only complaint you are ahead for only a few bucks.

just a cursory look. if the gym is 10,000 square feet. and the cost of rental/lease is $6.00 a foot (less CAM and property tax). you multiply 10,000 times $6 which equals $60,000. now divide that by 12 months. this equals $5,000 per month as the cost of that rent. sit down and then extrapolate other expenses like heating, AC, insurance, CAM, property tax portion, electric, payroll, payroll expenses, equipment replacement, chalk, water, toilet paper for a few hundred students, soap in the bathrooms for a few hundred students, paper towels in the bathrooms for a few hundred students, etc; and the list can go on and on depending on what part of the country you own a gym.

so then, we ALL have to do things that we don't like to do from time to time. this includes the kids. the benefits of your involvement that your children receive are immeasurable now. but well worth it later. you know the old adage that husbands and wives have been saying about the other for generations? you know, "you can't live with them and you can't live live without them"? the same can be applied and said about club owners and parents.

 

[Esoteric]

I just got done doing a breakdown on another thread called "I am so sick of booster club" or something to that effect. As far as meet fees- we pay them, even for home meets. The money goes to paying judges, compensating gym for lost rec classes, and awards. Our gym is known for their generous awards- which somewhat bothers me, but I guess some parents/kiddos expect to be rewarded for putting on a leo.
I think what people fail to recognize is that the team aspect is a who different beast than the regular gym income. The gyms take a loss for having a competitive team. back in my day it was an honor to be on team- it didn't matter how pushy your parents were- the gymnast needed talent, strength (both mental and physical,) flexibility (again, both mental and physical,) and had to be disciplined. These days schools have 6 soccer teams because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by letting them know they didn't make the cut- everyone grows up feeling entitled to something for little or no effort exerted. The gymnasts have to sweat a little to get results. The parents should have to sweat a little, too. Lead by example and teach your children what sacrifice is all about lest they grow up to become yet another "gimme gimme."

 

[shelovestoflip]

Once I was having a conversation with a co worker about gym costs....tuition ($500/month), meet fees, leos/warm ups etc...At first she was shocked at what I was paying (Northeast city gym=high rent among other things!) Adding it all up, it comes to about $40/hour.

Her son is a skier....we then calculated her costs....seasonal lift pass, bus fee after school to the mountain, boots/skis (which are new yearly as he is growing), same for coat, ski pants, etc...etc...

And guess what? Her cost was about $40/hour, too!

And she has no booster club to help!

Our gym runs a meet every year and it's a popular one around here....fun theme etc...most gyms are repeat gyms every year!

Yes, we all donate something for the concession stand (you can't have a meet without candy and gummy stuff afterall!), we are all required to work 3 shifts (it's a 2 day meet plus night before set up and break down at the end so their are lots of time choices) and if a parent doesn't volunteer, they are charged $150 instead. This is all stated up front.

The money raised from the meet offsets meet fees/coach travel, pays for special clinics for the team girls (last year there was a nutritionist, among others), and they also offset teh cost of the team leo if it is a new leo year!

So, I think it is worth it.

Also, I think the girls really like to see that their parents are helping at the meet (and they like 'their' meet, too!....we have jobs for younger gymnasts like running scores and handing out awards and jobs for older gymnasts, the coveted 'flash the score' job is one!)

So, seemingly life is $40/hour around here and I guess that is what it is!

 

[Esoteric]

My oldest dd left gym a couple years ago to focus on drama and academics, but I have a rule that they have to do something athletic, so she joined roller derby. This is the least expensive sport ever. It was like I came into a windfall, (until my little dd decided to be a gymnast- then the money disappeared again!) Derby requires an annual $50 umbrella insurance, $10/month dues, and we need to bring a homemade item to every home bout (competition) for a bake sale/concessions. The initial investment in skates, knee wrist and elbow pads, mouth guard and helmet was less than a new leo and warm-up and last for 3-4 years. Uniforms are provided and sponsors donate tights, socks and new helmets incessantly. Tons of local businesses now give us a discount because my dd is a derby girl. They even offer scholarships so that any girl that wants to skate has the chance- even if their families cannot come up with $10/month. Crazy days. I tell anyone who is looking for an affordable team sport that will give their girl balance, body awareness and mental toughness to check it out. Although.... I do prefer watching gymnasts over sweaty neon-haired adolescents with mouth guards in any day. =)

 

[gymmomtotwo]

I'm really just getting used to this world of gymnastics, and it's really is something I don't always understand. Why are meets so darn expensive? I understand renting of facilities. Why are judges paid? I have another child in swimming and all officials (yes there is formal training that takes quite a bit of time and on deck experience) are volunteers. They will spend all day for three days in a row walking up and down the pool deck judging strokes and officiating a meet without being paid a cent. They do it because they love swimmingand their kids. When our club hosts a meet, we have a hospitality room for coaches and official with donated food from various restaurants as well as team members' donations. People gladly donate knowing that most of the officials and coaches are there all day. But there is a concession stand run for the general population that is run for profit. We are not expected to donate to that. Why are goody bags, and free scrunchies and meaningless awards (everyone got a teddy bear at one meet, my kid doesn't have enough of those!)necessary? What is the point of the interminable award ceremonies? Why don't kids just pick up their awards at a table on their way out? Why am I charged $50 for an inhouse mock meet to get the season off to a start? There are no concessions. The coaches who are judges judge. If 40 kids are competing, why isn't $20 a kid enough to cover the coaches time for an extra 3 hours. $800 divided by 4 equals $200 a coach for 3 hours work. These are many of the questions that run through my mind when I watch this sport. So many unnecessary expenses. Pictures and mandatory t shirts and more expensive than necessary leotards. And yes, I don't have to let my kids do gymnastics, but it's what they love. So I bite my tongue when paying for some of this stuff. But I see where alot is unnecessary. I'll give as many hours as they need, but I am not giving food etc. so that the gym can make a profit. And I find it unnecessary to donate food for the officials since they are being paid. Enough is enough.

 

[Esoteric]

Judges are paid because they are professionals. Gymnastics judges need to pay for their training and continuing education and certifications. They need to travel to meets and have to sit long hours at a table that does not allow food. The time between sessions does not allow them to leave the gym to eat, so a hospitality area is set up for their breaks. Our booster pays for all foods out of its general fund. This is judges food as well as food sold at concession stand. The costs are recouped from parent dues. (We have a snack bar that the gym operates during practice time, but during meets all food from the gym is not for sale and the parent club supplies everything so none of the financial profit lines are blurred. We run things by the book.)

I agree with the award s and ceremonies being excessive at times. The meet fees do all get accounted for though- at least at out gym. The fees you pay for the in house mock meets probably pay for the awards as well as the labor used to set up and tear down the spectator area along with coaches expenses. Sometimes programs are issued, too.

 

[gymmomtotwo]

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the information about the judges. There must not be that many of them if clubs can't get judges from their own area to come, and have to pay some to travel. So there must be alot more involved in becoming one that I don't understand.

We don't have any sort of parents organization to help run the meets, etc. The gym is pretty new, but is already hosting it's own in gym meets. Our kids pay the same entry fees as everyone else. I gladly work the meets. I think it's fun. I got to sit next to the floor judge and record scores. I think a parents organization would be a good thing, as then there would be some accountability as to where the proceeds from concessions is going. I sincerely doubt it is going to meet fees, etc as we pay more for a meet than the fees posted by the host club (this is in the city area, so no major traveling). I guess the extra money is coaches fees, which is fine.

I stand firm on the mock meet and other unnecessary expenses. The only prep for this thing was that they put out some folding chairs. No equipment was moved. No program. It was the way the gym is always laid out. It was truly a practice meet (though mandatory) for $50.

Thanks for clarifying the judging thing. It's something that has been bothering me. Everything is so different from what I am used to in typical kids sports. The clubs being for profit instead of being run by a parent and coaching board charged with running a non for profit sports organization. The concept is foreign to me.

 

[barney66]

well folks, some of you know that i am a club owner and coach. the surveys say that none of us are getting rich. gym businesses are a perpetual & cavernous pit of bills and expenses and payroll. barney66, you have no reason to believe me other than my word is my word.

whether you run an in-house meet, or a meet off site with rental, it truly takes the support of an entire gym and their parents group to run a successful competition...and 1 where visiting gyms will want to return.

you can usually see where these funds go in a gym. gym equipment, entry fees, travel expenses, coaches fees etc; the conundrum you explain above is across the board for everyone. life is not fair, and as i have said before, as irreverent as it sounds, parents should have thought about all that is involved in having children BEFORE they have children. they too are a cavernous pit of bills and expenses and toilet paper and toothpaste.

the more money that a gym can reap from a competition should mean less money they ask for in the form of tuitions. the reason they would have you "pay $100" might be because that is the amount estimated that a parent would generate had they worked or profits made from the sales of homemade brownies and such which don't cost the club any money and the parent very little in time and cost. or $100 less that would have to be paid to an outside source for the same work.

whether it is a 300 hundred gymnast meet or a 3,000 gymnast meet (chicago style) there is just no way a competition can be pulled off with a gym staff of 5.

in the final analysis, a parent should receive something back in return for their volunteer involvement. how and what that is in your program should be made available to you via your parents club or the owners. and if they did not publish their policies up front and before you and your child were invited to the competitive team then you very well might have a point. i highly doubt this was the case. this is issue has been this way since the beginning of private clubs. and we didn't invent the method. it has been this way in other organizations forever.

and as far as "is our tuition not enough"? seriously? do the math on the hourly. then cross compare to other things like private music lessons, tennis, karate, figure skating, ice hockey, DAYCARE, BABYSITTING, etc; that "question" alone is shortsighted on the part of that poster when you consider all that is in involved in owning a gym club and what they bring to children.

and most of us club owners "can barely afford gymnastics" ourselves the past few months. you should count your blessings that your gym is there/open, and if the above is your only complaint you are ahead for only a few bucks.

just a cursory look. if the gym is 10,000 square feet. and the cost of rental/lease is $6.00 a foot (less CAM and property tax). you multiply 10,000 times $6 which equals $60,000. now divide that by 12 months. this equals $5,000 per month as the cost of that rent. sit down and then extrapolate other expenses like heating, AC, insurance, CAM, property tax portion, electric, payroll, payroll expenses, equipment replacement, chalk, water, toilet paper for a few hundred students, soap in the bathrooms for a few hundred students, paper towels in the bathrooms for a few hundred students, etc; and the list can go on and on depending on what part of the country you own a gym.

so then, we ALL have to do things that we don't like to do from time to time. this includes the kids. the benefits of your involvement that your children receive are immeasurable now. but well worth it later. you know the old adage that husbands and wives have been saying about the other for generations? you know, "you can't live with them and you can't live live without them"? the same can be applied and said about club owners and parents.

WOW dunno that is heavy, "Think about having kids before you have them"" & comparing that to gymnastics clubs . Look the bottom line is don't open a gymnastic club,, i mean seriously.. I am in retail. If I am having an event or a show to sell my merchandise I am not telling the family of my workers that they have to come & help me because I can't do it with out them & I will go out of business so if you don't i will charge you...

There is a slight difference between the 2 but you should get the meaning..

My problem is that the gyms believe it is an entitlement.. I agree in helping out if you can because it is your childs club but to charge for not doing it is the problem. Its the cost of doing business. raise your prices & explain why.

your cursory look is part of owning your own business nobody elses. if you have to raise prices to meet your overhead then so be it. again It is the cost of doing business.

There needs to be transparentcy with the money in holding a meet. Anyone who helps should be afforded a gratuity. It should be discussed prior to the gym holding a meet. Everyone should know where the money is going & for what.. The gym should not be entitled to the proceeds of a meet if parents are working it for them. This is basic business 101. If I ran my business like this i would be closed


I mean NO DISREPECT to you I am just telling it like it is.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

i regret that you did not understand what i posted. and let your gym know that they should "raise their prices" so that you can then work 3 jobs because that's the cost of having kids and living life.

and i took no disrespect. and i always tell it like it is.

on the light side, my response is to someone in retail where a 'buyer' secures a pair of jeans from the manufacturer for $10.00. the kind missing 1/3 of the material due to fashion holes. they go on the shelf for $120.00. and at some point they go on sale for $80.00.

every industry has its problems...that other people pay for.

 

[wallinbl]

There is a slight difference between the 2 but you should get the meaning..

My problem is that the gyms believe it is an entitlement.. I agree in helping out if you can because it is your childs club but to charge for not doing it is the problem. Its the cost of doing business. raise your prices & explain why.

You interpret as an ultimatum (volunteer or we'll make you pay), some interpret as a choice (it costs this much to do this, you can either volunteer or pay the cost). If you don't want to volunteer, then you're getting what you've asked for - their raised prices.

 

[barney66]

Dunno you are Biased being a coach/gym owner. Your retail senerio is not the same or even close to it. YOU pointed out all of the hardships in holding a meet or owning a gym. All of those issues are not a parents dilemma that is what my point is.. If a gym decides to hold a met then they know what they are getting into. You seemed to ingnore my quote "Transparency".. To tell parents you have to do this or you will be charged because I want to hold a meet at my gym is my contention! Not offering a parent an equal share/gratuity is the argument of my statement of entitlement.
A business person would sit down with all involved & go over all aspects of holding a meet. Examine all options for what is needed. Everything from A_Z so everyone is on the same page. I can assure you that 99 out of 100 would step up without any hesitation to pull the meet off without any animosity if the are able to.. To require one to do this or you will pay this & not receive an agreed upon reimbersment is WRONG!!! For the gym to take any money made from a parent helping working or volunteering & not giving back is WRONG!!!

WAl that is fine. figure out how many meets you will hold. Show what it will cost, divide that by 12 month and add that to each months dues. end of story. Much easier for a parent to pay a little more each month then to lay out 100 200 300 extra etc in one month or have to take off work so they can run YOUr meet.. Much Respect

 

[nevertooold]

Dunno you are Biased being a coach/gym owner. Your retail senerio is not the same or even close to it. YOU pointed out all of the hardships in holding a meet or owning a gym. All of those issues are not a parents dilemma that is what my point is.. If a gym decides to hold a met then they know what they are getting into. You seemed to ingnore my quote "Transparency".. To tell parents you have to do this or you will be charged because I want to hold a meet at my gym is my contention! Not offering a parent an equal share/gratuity is the argument of my statement of entitlement.
A business person would sit down with all involved & go over all aspects of holding a meet. Examine all options for what is needed. Everything from A_Z so everyone is on the same page. I can assure you that 99 out of 100 would step up without any hesitation to pull the meet off without any animosity if the are able to.. To require one to do this or you will pay this & not receive an agreed upon reimbersment is WRONG!!! For the gym to take any money made from a parent helping working or volunteering & not giving back is WRONG!!!

WAl that is fine. figure out how many meets you will hold. Show what it will cost, divide that by 12 month and add that to each months dues. end of story. Much easier for a parent to pay a little more each month then to lay out 100 200 300 extra etc in one month or have to take off work so they can run YOUr meet.. Much Respect

And this is why some talented kids do not get invited to team.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

well then...it appears that my post is clearly not understood by 1. and biased i am NOT. hang around for awhile. i believe i call it the way i see it. as someone joked (sorry, can't remember who) a week ago...my posts are irreverent. but i'm consistent. i call out coaches and club owners alike when they have acted badly. so, biased i'm not.

and nevertooold said it perfectly. it's the way of the gymnastics world.

 

[barney66]

And this is why some talented kids do not get invited to team.

I am not sure i understand ur post, because a parent feels that they should not be forced to work your event without compensation then the child is not put on your team???? if so WOW " its my ball & i won't let you play".. I guess i am from a different mold. I do not work for free my time is very valuable. if your making money off of my work I will share in the proceeds. I just can't get what you see wrong in that. Maybe you like making other people money.. I could use you in my business since your time is free. It will add more to y bottom line.


& dunno to say that's the way of the gymnastics world give credance to my entitlement statement of gym owners. just because it is going on does not make it right!!!!

 

[gymluvr33]

If I understand nevertooold's post correctly, it is because gymnastics is already an extremely expensive sport, and raising the cost of tuition is simply not an option for many families. It is easier for many families to work a few sessions of a meet, rather than pay more per month for tuition. I agree with wallinbl, it is a choice, not an ultimatum. You can choose to pay a fee, or work the meet. It is up to you.

 

[nevertooold]

I am not sure i understand ur post, because a parent feels that they should not be forced to work your event without compensation then the child is not put on your team???? if so WOW " its my ball & i won't let you play".. I guess i am from a different mold. I do not work for free my time is very valuable. if your making money off of my work I will share in the proceeds. I just can't get what you see wrong in that. Maybe you like making other people money.. I could use you in my business since your time is free. It will add more to y bottom line.


& dunno to say that's the way of the gymnastics world give credance to my entitlement statement of gym owners. just because it is going on does not make it right!!!!

LOL!! I work basically for free 6 days a week year round, 7 during meet season. And yes a parent who thinks they should not have to volunteer a 4 hr shift at a meet does not belong on my team.

However my original statement was about your hostile attitude.

 

[nevertooold]

If I understand nevertooold's post correctly, it is because gymnastics is already an extremely expensive sport, and raising the cost of tuition is simply not an option for many families. It is easier for many families to work a few sessions of a meet, rather than pay more per month for tuition. I agree with wallinbl, it is a choice, not an ultimatum. You can choose to pay a fee, or work the meet. It is up to you.

I meant that many a kid is passed over for team if the parent is perceived to be a pain to be around. Why would anyone purposefully enter a situation where they would spend multiple days per week for many years interacting with someone they didn't enjoy interacting with. And if the parent is not on board with the program philosophies they will bad mouth the program from the inside before eventually moving to perceived greener pastures. Best to avoid either if possible.

 

[Esoteric]

Barney,

perhaps your gym operates like many others in that it is NOT THE GYM hosting the meet, per se, but rather the TEAM. The team is usually financed by a separate entity than the gym. This entity is a booster club/parents club. They are a non-profit organization that works through volunteers and donations and dues. The gym hires the coaches to train the gymnasts. The gymnasts families pay the club for that training. Meets are paid for by the booster club and they are financed through dues and meet fees. The meet fees pay for Judges (2-4 per event per session,) food for the judges, paying the coaches to be present for the team gymnasts, awards and programs, and compensating the gym for any lost income from rec classes that had to be cancelled due to the meet. The meets are staffed by "volunteers." I put volunteers in quotations because as part of a requirement for being on team, every gymnast's family must join the booster/parent club- which typically requires that families volunteer at a meet or pay a buy out fee. Our families each need to volunteer a total of 22.5 hours this year spread over 3 hosted meets. We are billed $75/hour for any hours that we have not met.

From my perspective, you are getting off good if you only have to pay $100 total to not volunteer. The thing is, when I was approached about joining team, I asked what it entailed, and I payed attention to the answer. I attend meetings and read the minutes of the meetings to be sure I am clear. I do not see the gym as a babysitting service for which I simply drop off my kiddo several times a week and write a couple checks at the first of the month.

Gymnastics is a HUGE commitment of time, money, and resources of the ENTIRE family. This level of commitment only increases with each passing year. This is not a good fit for many families. That is why gyms offer advanced rec programs for the families that are unable to make this type of sacrifice. Being on team is an honor that requires hard work, time management and sacrifice by the whole family. There is no other way to explain this. I suggest you talk to your gym owner and find out what exactly the expectation is for families at your gym, then go home and have a family meeting and determine if this is the right path for you to be on. Good luck.

 

[Esoteric]

Oh, and the buy out fee is typically so high because the team needs to have many volunteers to keep things running smoothly. If it were easy to buy out, the meets would be understaffed and visiting gyms would not want to return. Volunteers need to do admissions, sell raffles/pins, event score inputs and flashers, master score input table, beam timers, floor music players, announcers, snack bar, meet coordinator, set up, tear down, "floater/runner", restroom/garbage duty.... and probably a half dozen more I have forgotten.