Women Handstands and hollow back.

[Flossyduck]

Apologies for the big paragraph. I know it's awful to read, but I can't put in paragraph breaks. My dd has a hollow back. I have the same and my mother too. If I stand pressed against a wall, you can slide your arm behind my back. If I lie on the floor you can do the same and I would have to pull my knees up to tuck position to get my spine flat. DD is also very flexible. Until now, the range and conditioning she has had to compete had straddle press up to handstand and then almost straight away into split hold handstand, so this was never a problem as the split hold could be counter balanced, if that makes sense. Going forward she needs longer handstand holds and pike levers. Don't get me wrong, the gym do lots of work on it - handstand holds against the wall, with the coach attempting to get her hand behind dds back, lying on the floor in candlestick for the same and lots more. This is very painful for dd and she says it's hard to breath when she is in the correct position and it feels as though her lungs have collapsed. In handstand, to get her back/torso in the correct position she has to throw her hips and legs forward and to counter that has to lean beyond balance point. I'm not looking for solutions, as I said the gym know have always worked on it and know what they are doing. I guess I'm just curious, going forward is this going to be a big problem? It does seem to affect her handstands and after months and months of exercises I can't see that her physical body shape has altered in this particular respect. Any experience of this? How much can it improve and how much will it affect her? Thanks.

 

[iwannacoach]

I'm pretty sure I know what you're trying to explain. It's a tough problem to solve because kids with this posture have spent hours every day, for years, in this position, which creates muscles that tend to override the concept of good gymnastics posture as well as weakening the muscles thy need to make good posture a reality.

The club is correct in their efforts to identify and solve the problem, but considering your dd's lifelong use of the wrong muscles, she lacks the functional strength to benefit completely from the exercises they are using. In a practical sense it's like somebody trying to paint a masterpiece, and believing they can, based upon their recent experience painting the kitchen table..... if you know what I mean.

One way to help correct this is to spend as much time as possible using the correct posture muscles, and hope that the cumulative time will create a sense of what should be done throughout the entire day. Frequent and mild reminders all day long is the way to do it.


This is a one foot tuck stand.......

If she were to stand on a slightly bent leg, and lift the knee of her other leg up to hip height, or even halfway to her hip height, she'd likely see most of that hollow disappear. She can spend all the time she wants doing this on alternate legs whenever her "other time" activities allow. While brushing her teeth, washing her hands, doing dishes, or while hopping to get from one place in the house to another.

This won't work unless she want's to make it work and is willing to check her posture as she's doing it, so just offer it up to her and see what she does with it.

 

[bogwoppit]

We tried for years to help my youngest, who has the same issue (runs in her dads family) they seem to lack abdominal strength and are all sway backed) sadly nothing ever worked. It requires the muscles being constantly engaged, when this is just not natural for them. I reminded her constantly, still do, but in the end it doesn't stick. Hope you have better luck.

 

[AmandaLynn]

I am sure her coaches are working on this, as well, but make sure that she is stretching her hip flexors. I have found that many of the kids that are sway backed have poor abdominal strength and tight hip flexors. Or... At least tight in the correct range of motion...

 

[Flossyduck]

Thanks for the comments. I'm not totally sure we're talking about the same thing... a sway back is where you stand with your pelvis tilted forward and stomach stuck out - it's a posture thing, which you can physically alter by tipping your pelvis back and sucking your stomach in, is that right? I think this is different. My pelvis is straight and so is hers. When I stand against the wall my back is against the wall all the way to above the pelvic bones and again at the upper back/shoulders. It's the area around the lower ribcage which is away from the wall and I can't tip my pelvis back any further. I've done yoga for more than twenty years and it hasn't changed. I think it's the same with dd (not the yoga for 20 years bit, that would be ridiculous, although in the context of some of the stuff on this board..... I digress). It's not that lazy standing with stomach stuck out thing. The other thing that makes me wonder is that she has phenomenal abdominal strength, a rock hard six pack, L hangs and leg lifts all days long, spends hours conditioning. Her coach has also said previously that she has good hip flexors, because they need to be good for the straddle press handstands and other stuff (can't remember what it's a while ago), she definitely said that. I don't know, I'm a bit confused. Maybe it's not a problem. There are girls who look to have worse posture when they stand in line. They do lots of exercises for correct handstand position, not just dd. No-one has ever said to me that it's a problem, it's just me looking at her and thinking that she can't get that whole straight line from ankles to shoulders to hips thing going, which is surely an issue. HOWEVER, I love the idea of the one foot tuck stand, it sounds as though it would definitely help to and I am going to make her do that, just because I can. And I'll take photographs and post them on facebook, mwa, ha, ha!

 

[QuietColours]

The pelvis is straight, but is she thrusting her rib cage forwarded? I've had this problem with my posture--I tend to want to sit and stand with my chest "lifted" and thrust forward and have to constantly think about pulling it back. It took me a long time to realize that the issue wasn't in the position of my lower back, but in the mid-to-upper back, and I used to try to tuck my pelvis under to correct it. That made the general curve look better, but it made all the other back problems I had worse. Now I working on sitting and standing in a pulled up position (supporting myself with muscles, not just flopping on my skeleton), but with an untucked pelvis, and a relaxed, aligned chest.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

Thanks for the comments. I'm not totally sure we're talking about the same thing... a sway back is where you stand with your pelvis tilted forward and stomach stuck out - it's a posture thing, which you can physically alter by tipping your pelvis back and sucking your stomach in, is that right? I think this is different. My pelvis is straight and so is hers. When I stand against the wall my back is against the wall all the way to above the pelvic bones and again at the upper back/shoulders. It's the area around the lower ribcage which is away from the wall and I can't tip my pelvis back any further. I've done yoga for more than twenty years and it hasn't changed. I think it's the same with dd (not the yoga for 20 years bit, that would be ridiculous, although in the context of some of the stuff on this board..... I digress). It's not that lazy standing with stomach stuck out thing. The other thing that makes me wonder is that she has phenomenal abdominal strength, a rock hard six pack, L hangs and leg lifts all days long, spends hours conditioning. Her coach has also said previously that she has good hip flexors, because they need to be good for the straddle press handstands and other stuff (can't remember what it's a while ago), she definitely said that. I don't know, I'm a bit confused. Maybe it's not a problem. There are girls who look to have worse posture when they stand in line. They do lots of exercises for correct handstand position, not just dd. No-one has ever said to me that it's a problem, it's just me looking at her and thinking that she can't get that whole straight line from ankles to shoulders to hips thing going, which is surely an issue. HOWEVER, I love the idea of the one foot tuck stand, it sounds as though it would definitely help to and I am going to make her do that, just because I can. And I'll take photographs and post them on facebook, mwa, ha, ha!

you're speaking about having your hips tucked under, built more like a male. no rear end? all postures can not be changed. it's skeletal. the best you can hope for is finding things in gymnastics that you can do very well.

 

[GymSurvivor]

I have to say, I thought I was the only one! I didn't realize this was an actual 'thing' I've tried for years to get my back on the floor and can't do it unless my knees are tucked, I've Los had a hard time with abdominal strength, I have a firm/hard stomach but have trouble 'using the muscles I guess. No suggestions as of now! Sorry!

 

[Amusibus]

A visit to a good physical therapist or chiropractor may be in order. My first thought was tight hip flexors. The hip flexors can have normal range of motion and still have a hard end feel, it varies in each person. She may also have issues with some of the spinal stabilizing muscles. These can be weak or underactive even in very strong, well-conditioned individuals. Or, maybe it's skeletal. I guess if I were in your situation and it began to be more of a problem holding her back in gymnastics, I'd think it was at least worth checking into before just accepting that it's just skeletal.

 

[BlairBob]

Many male gymnasts suffer from shoulder kyphosis, especially Rings specialists. That being said, it still can be done.

She just needs to start at relearning the proper hollow position. By all means, see if a PT can do any magic.

 

[Flossyduck]

Wow. Thank you so much for taking the trouble to read this and reply. Some really interesting responses, from some of the most experienced and knowledgeable chalkbucket residents. I can take something from each, although, as I said, I'm not expecting to be able to fix this myself and just wondered what the effect might be if it goes on. I can't help wondering if Dunno is right and it is, at least partly, skeletal. As I said, I have done yoga for a very long time and I used to be a dancer. I walk and stand tall, spine stretched out and have always thought I had good posture BUT there is no way I can get back spine to hit the floor unless in a tight tuck and I've just tried against the wall again and have to bend my shoulders forwards, crouch down and move my feet away from the all to get near. It was a nightmare lying on my back in pregnancy - agony. Although "no rear end?" is sadly a hazy memory. DD is not as bad, but I know she has worked very hard and they have been doing these shape and posture drills with all the girls from day one in development and upped the anti a lot over the last year. Maybe it is a bit fixable and a bit personal?? I guess that would be the most positive outcome, as it doesn't sound as though this is going to be good news going forward. We tried the one legged thing this morning. DD called it a farting flamingo and instantly took to it. Little brother and she were both at it and I will try and get her to keep that up when she can. The gym has a great physio, so I'll have a chat with him and see what he says. Hadn't thought of that. I don't know nearly enough about hip flexors to know if they work on them, but I can't imagine they would not do - they work on every other muscle! I'll have a chat with her coach when I've got feedback from the physio. No-one has expressed concern, but they wouldn't - they'd just chuck her off the elite program if she shows any flaws or falls behind. I'll get some cushions ready!!

 

[Kiwi]

See if you can find a St John neuromuscular therapist. DD has been seeing one and she has been brilliant. They analyse skeletal, muscular and postural imbalances and provide a combination of treatments including exercises to do at home.