WAG how DO the judges do it?

[gymbeam]

so, when keeping track of deductions, exactly how are the judges doing it?

are they just jotting down numbers really fast or are they actually writing down what the deductions are for at the same time? is there a special shorthand judges learn to be able to document all of this so quickly?

is there a universal document judges are using to write this information on or just any piece of paper the meet director provides will do? and are they just writing this stuff all over the page so they can get it down as fast as possible without taking their eyes off the competitor or is the page nice and neat upon completion?

just super curious! thanks!

 

[coachmolly]

I'm sure a judge can provide more complete info, but I've contemplated trying my hand at judging over the last few years and might be able to offer a little help. And judges all seem to have their own method that works for them, meaning that their judging scratch paper (a yellow legal pad or whatever other sheet they are using) is pretty difficult for another person to decipher.
There is a judging shorthand that helps them to quickly write down the skills- this is especially helpful at optional levels. I've seen judges do the shorthand with a numerical deduction below the skill as well as notations for falls or breaks in a series.
I think at the compulsory level some judges, especially newer ones, bring a sheet with the shorthand already written out in order to give them one less step.

 

[Ponyshine]

I have not been judging too long, but I think it varies from person to person and from competition to competition. What I do know is that each skill has a symbol e.g. a handstand can be written as an exclamation mark. This is quicker than writing down every skill in words, but it does take a bit of time learning all the symbols! Some judges will write all their deductions for each skill under each symbol.

When I judge, I sometimes don't use symbols - I simply write down the deductions in a long line and then add them up at the end. I keep my eyes on the gymnast as much as possible so as not to miss something, which is easily done on vault for example! One blink and it's over...oops!

So my sheet (which may be a random scrap of paper, or may have been given to me by the officials with specific room for writing it out neatly) will look a bit like this (each number I write means 0.1 or 0.5 rather than 1.0 or 5.0 - if I want to show 1.0 for a fall then I circle the 1):

1 3 1 5 1 1 1 1 (1)

So this person receives a total of 2.4 deductions. The E-score is therefore 10-2.4 = 7.6 which is added to the difficulty score to give a final score which is then stored and fed back to the main database where it is added to the other scores.

As I'm writing this I realise that judging is different in America compared to the UK, but the method of recording deductions should still be similar I think even if the scoring system is different. For example 10 would be a pretty low score here in the UK, but not in the USA I believe (not that I know much about the American system).

 

[Paint A Melody]

Haha in the US a 10 is a perfect score. We don't have difficulty and execution scores until Elite.

 

[Ponyshine]

Haha in the US a 10 is a perfect score. We don't have difficulty and execution scores until Elite.

I thought you used a perfect 10 system. I'm glad we don't here because that means you could never improve your score once you're perfect, but at least with our system you can because you can always make your routine more difficult. However, I can see how the perfect 10 system can work with the USA system because you have set skills to compete in each level, so you can't improve or reduce difficulty like you can in the UK (unless you're doing grades for example), although there are still requirements for different competitions.

 

[Paint A Melody]

Even for optionals and Xcel it's a perfect 10 system. I would rather have difficulty scores. There isn't any point in doing harder routines. Also I've never seen anyone get a perfect 10, so it's hard enough to achieve that.

 

[Committed]

I thought you used a perfect 10 system. I'm glad we don't here because that means you could never improve your score once you're perfect.

LOL! I didn't realize there were so many perfect gymnasts in the UK that they need to find a way to improve on perfect!

 

[Ponyshine]

LOL! I didn't realize there were so many perfect gymnasts in the UK that they need to find a way to improve on perfect!

Haha lol, but with the USA system someone could do a perfect cartwheel and beat the person who did an almost perfect double back...

 

[Redford]

I agree with the above said. Every judge has his own method and every system its own requirements. Shorthand exists but is only used by the D-judges around here as far as I know.
Some judges are magically able to write very clean deductions in one line and even structure them so there is some space between the individual elements. There are sheets you can use, especially for compulsories, with the elements already written on them, so you can later defend your judging in front of the mob of angry coaches.

As far as I and my limited coaching experience are concerned, the result of franatically trying to keep track of the gymnast rather looks like this. I managed to deduct onto the table once.

 

[sce]

Haha lol, but with the USA system someone could do a perfect cartwheel and beat the person who did an almost perfect double back...

While this is true to some extent, each level has requirements and limits. So you won't see someone competing really simple skills against someone competing much more difficult skills.

Though a comparison would be at level 6 a gymnast on beam could do a cartwheel and another backhandspring. That alone is a pretty wide range of difficulty.

 

[Ponyshine]

While this is true to some extent, each level has requirements and limits. So you won't see someone competing really simple skills against someone competing much more difficult skills.

Though a comparison would be at level 6 a gymnast on beam could do a cartwheel and another backhandspring. That alone is a pretty wide range of difficulty.

Yep - that's what I thought That's why I also said this earlier:

However, I can see how the perfect 10 system can work with the USA system because you have set skills to compete in each level, so you can't improve or reduce difficulty like you can in the UK (unless you're doing grades for example), although there are still requirements for different competitions.

 

[Sari]

I still use the shorthand as I'm pretty new to judging, but copy the skills onto my own piece(s) (No, definitely pieces, lol) of paper and separate them by drawing lines (that get significantly more crooked throughout a session).
During a routine, I write down "I"s, one for a one tenth deduction. I try my hardest to put them into groups, for instance "III I III" if I deduct three separate errors in a skill and not just tenths. For major errors, I write out a 1,0 with a letter so I can later comprehend what exactly that deduction was for (like an F for a fall, R for repetition of an already attempted skill, ...).

 

[gymbeam]

I agree with the above said. Every judge has his own method and every system its own requirements. Shorthand exists but is only used by the D-judges around here as far as I know.
Some judges are magically able to write very clean deductions in one line and even structure them so there is some space between the individual elements. There are sheets you can use, especially for compulsories, with the elements already written on them, so you can later defend your judging in front of the mob of angry coaches.

As far as I and my limited coaching experience are concerned, the result of franatically trying to keep track of the gymnast rather looks like this. I managed to deduct onto the table once.

thanks for the pic! so interesting to me!

 

[Deleted member D3987]

the only thing difference simply between 10.0 and FIG is the difficulty. you receive bonus for practically everything you do at the elite level and then add it up. you also receive bonus in the JO system but the routines do not start from a 10.0 unless you have the bonus (difficulty, dance, etc to bring it up to a 10.0. difficulty in the Elite system is a separate line item total which is added to the artistic score. lets say, 9.0 artistic and 4.7 difficulty equals 13.7. the JO optional system has minimum requirements. if you meet the MINIMUM your start value may only be a 9.5. you'll have to do some difficulty which has bonus in order to bring it up to a 10.0.

artistic is still artistic in both systems. if your gymnastics is ugly you will receive the same deductions in both systems.

 

[Deleted member D3987]

additionally, the judges use a "judging" shorthand. some of them are really good at it. some not so much.

 

[taximomma]

While this is true to some extent, each level has requirements and limits. So you won't see someone competing really simple skills against someone competing much more difficult skills.

Though a comparison would be at level 6 a gymnast on beam could do a cartwheel and another backhandspring. That alone is a pretty wide range of difficulty.

I saw this recently at a Level 6 meet. First place beam routine went to a girl who competed a cartwheel and round-off dismount. All other girls had BWO (one had BHS) and front or back tuck dismounts. So confusing to me. That system doesn't seem to encourage the athletes to do harder skills.

 

[Paint A Melody]

That's why I hate it so much. I don't feel quite as motivated to get my back walkover again, and even less to do any sort of flight since I have a solid routine. In fact, if I didn't feel like the back walkover did me an injustice by making me lose it, I think I wouldn't have really bothered. And this is coming from someone who isn't obsessed with scores. Sure first place is nice, but I am not competing a silly little front handspring or something in my floor routine.

 

[Seeker]

Those skills are valued the same though, so strategically it makes sense to compete the skill you can perform the cleanest if your goal is to get the highest (or least deducted) score.

From a progression standpoint, competing harder than minimum skills is often best in the long run, but to win at L6 or 7? Compete clean routines that meet the base standards as efficiently as possible and get off the apparatus.

More skills = more deductions so do what you need to and be done. Simple and clean always seems to score best.

 

[Ponyshine]

Those skills are valued the same though, so strategically it makes sense to compete the skill you can perform the cleanest if your goal is to get the highest (or least deducted) score.

From a progression standpoint, competing harder than minimum skills is often best in the long run, but to win at L6 or 7? Compete clean routines that meet the base standards as efficiently as possible and get off the apparatus.

More skills = more deductions so do what you need to and be done. Simple and clean always seems to score best.

Interesting. A back flick (or back handspring as you call it in the USA) is valued the same as a cartwheel? Here in the UK a back flick is valued a B while cartwheels & backward walkovers are A valued skills on beam, meaning they're easier than a BHS.

 

[Jenny]

artistic is still artistic in both systems. if your gymnastics is ugly you will receive the same deductions in both systems.

Both receive deductions but the deductions are quite different I believe. A fall is a mark in FIG but only 0.5 in JO. I believe other deductions are much smaller in JO 2 like form deductions.

Someone once said the FIG deductions are roughly 3x the JO deductions.

Also we have artistry requirements in FIG but JO has text deductions for the compulsory routines I think instead. Artistry is worth a massive amount here on floor. You won't be seeing many (any) e scores over 9 here. Is it the same in JO higher levels?